Any atheists here who were once believers?

[geeser]

Are not groups of people composed of individual human beings?

Well of course, however they are following a group mentality. That is the point that seems to be alluding you, Thus are not being nor acting as individuals in said group. they are all following the group mentality. They forego there individuality the moment they join and act within that group. It has been scientifically proven that people act and do things totally out of character when in a group mentality. They are clearly not using their critical minds then are they.

One day in the future, you may actually understand that. Wait belay that, I don't think that is actually possible. As you're still insisting that they can both be individual thinkers at the very same time be group thinkers. The two are mutually exclusive.

Do you lie awake at night asking 'Where you had gone wrong? Well that's going to take a hell of a lot more than one night.

Oh and don't give other people a piece of your mind unless you can afford it. You haven't got much there to share.

And note I only respond with vitriol when it is what I receive. At the beginning of this slanging match, all I asked you was are you sure.

 

[(Q)]

I like what Einstein had to say.

In any event, I believe in the existence of a spirit world. God (mystery) creates souls of all different types, like you, me, other humans, angels, entities of all sorts.

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can change this." ~ Albert Einstein


I like what he had to say, too.

 

[lightgigantic]

Why are you lying? Oh yes, that's what you do here.

Please stop fighting and telling me what I should believe

 

[lightgigantic]

That is truth. No one knows if there is a god, and if one exists...what he is, etc.
How could anyone really know this?

Actually what we are asking is how do you know this.
Iow you can't really say "there is no absolutes" without also utilizing an absolute.

This is the irony that is picked up by others in your posts.

 

[spidergoat]

Well then watch out for spidergoat, he has more than you.

Quantity is not quality.

 

[spidergoat]

I have figured it out. Much to the horror of the science community, there is evidence that the physical universe itself has a soul. It also has a certain amount of freewill (the Uncertainty Principle). The laws of physics are written into its soul, and it will live forever. So at least one soul is known to exist. Why not other souls?

No it doesn't.

 

[wegs]

Actually what we are asking is how do you know this.
Iow you can't really say "there is no absolutes" without also utilizing an absolute.

This is the irony that is picked up by others in your posts.

When it comes to spirituality, there are no absolute truths.
It's all subjective. Spirituality is based on an individual's subjective experiences and preferred religious doctrine he/she may follow.
That is why when I was Christian, I didn't expect someone to take my view as an absolute truth. It was a belief I held, not an absolute truth.

If you think spirituality holds absolute truths, we will have to agree to disagree.

Here's what I said in reply to Jan Ardena:

''The truth is Jan, you aren't any closer to knowing with certainty the "truth" than I am.''

That is true. He agreed. Then asked me what truth was, and I also gave a subjective opinion as my reply.
I don't claim absolute truths, either.

 

[lightgigantic]

@ lightgigantic;

I completely understand and respect the idea of ‘faith.’ But faith isn’t objective truth.
That is why there are so many variations of religions…no one can agree I guess, on what ‘truth is.’
I don’t need to know, because I can’t ever really know. If God exists, why would he need religion to ‘promote’ him, and most religions disagree with one another? So, is it ok to say that religious people who have an opinion of God, are better than people who are not religious, and have no opinion?

Religious people don’t know the certainty of truth, any more than non-religious.

The problem is when you extrapolate your own limitations on the subject to all others ...eg . Because I don't know God, no one else does either.

As for multiplicity in truth automatically indicating a fallacy, the very subject of ontology suggests otherwise (which isn't to say that all and any version of truth is satisfactory.
So for instance barrack Obama can host a variety of truths - president .... to American people, father ... to his children, lover ... to his wife, provider of dog food ... to his dog etc etc ......... however when knowledgeable people could reject such things as "winner of the tourdefrance" or "leader of al queda"

 

[lightgigantic]

When it comes to spirituality, there are no absolute truths.
It's all subjective. Spirituality is based on an individual's subjective experiences and preferred religious doctrine he/she may follow.
That is why when I was Christian, I didn't expect someone to take my view as an absolute truth. It was a belief I held, not an absolute truth.

If you think spirituality holds absolute truths, we will have to agree to disagree.

Iow you are saying the absolute truth of spirituality is that it's all subject.

Iow whatever anyone anywhere at any time experienced in the name of spirituality has no scope beyond the subjective.

What we are asking is what criteria you use to come to this experience.

If you try to answer this question by talking about your own limitations on the subject, you are simply saying your experiences represent the alpha and omega of what any other academic saint or exemplary figure from religion experienced ..... which would plainly be a poor set of criteria for answering the question.

 

[Magical Realist]

My interest is inner peace. Sometimes, this requires not painting demons on white walls.

Interesting you should use the term "demons". Demonizing is something invented by religion to justify the censorship, ostracization and oppression of anyone who spake ill of it. A tried and true religious practice you seem to take a rather sadistic pleasure in.

 

[wegs]

Iow you are saying the absolute truth of spirituality is that it's all subject.

Iow whatever anyone anywhere at any time experienced in the name of spirituality has no scope beyond the subjective.

What we are asking is what criteria you use to come to this experience.

If you try to answer this question by talking about your own limitations on the subject, you are simply saying your experiences represent the alpha and omega of what any other academic saint or exemplary figure from religion experienced ..... which would plainly be a poor set of criteria for answering the question.

Faith is subjective. Spirituality is subjective. It doesn't mean I don’t believe that the person actually feels the way they do. It just means …it’s their personal experience. While I respect their experience, I don't accept it as verifying that God exists.

By your standards, you’re suggesting that if I have a spiritual ‘experience’ with what I may perceive as ‘God,’ I should make others believe it to be true? I’m honestly trying to understand your post.

That's what religion is all about...subjective experiences (supposedly) by some folks way back in history, and those experiences are taught as truth of who God is...passed down through the ages. Generations following these religions.

 

[wegs]

@ lightgigantic;

And just to get back to the original topic...I am not interested in getting people to leave their respective views or faiths. I merely have stated why I have changed my spiritual stance to which some posters judged. Or misjudged.

So, I don't care what anyone believes but when asked, I explain my personal view. Which is also subjective.

 

[brucep]

Over the past couple of years, I've fallen away from organized "religion." And while the Bible offers some moral guidance, I find myself not taking it literally. When I think about my trust in scientific truths, my faith beliefs seem even more erroneous. In a nutshell, I feel like I've been on a winding road with my faith...and now, I'm at a cross roads. (I've shared more details in the Christian Music thread if u are interested to gain perspective)

I'm dating an atheist who doesn't scoff at my beliefs whatsoever. But he said something recently and it was this..."if you believe in God, you should know why you do." (And he went on to say...not for others, but for myself, I need to know why)

I've believed in God all of my life; I don't "know" anything else. But, for a while, I've been spiritually "dry." I'm hopeful that some of you might be inspired to share any story with me as to if you are an atheist, but you were once a believer. How did you come to terms with it? How did it change your worldview? Your life? Your decision making?

I've read recently Charles Darwin's "journey" from following a faith to systematically denouncing the Old and New Testaments. He seemed to only apply logic, but is there more to it?

Just looking for some thoughtful input and guidance from those who were once believers and now, are not.
TIA!

As a young man I was an Episcopalian Acolyte and a devout Christian. Since my early 20's I've been an Atheist. In the end the creation mythology and a belief that there is some omnipresent God to pray to, for possible assistance in our daily lives, just doesn't have any correlation with my reality or logic. That doesn't mean spirituality isn't important to me. For me spirituality is an important part of my path through the universe. Intellectual honesty would be something my spirit would help me attain as much as possible [always difficult being completely honest]. I really enjoy science but it wasn't the reason that I separated myself from Christianity. Logic wasn't the main reason either. I can believe in the real world of science, Santa Claus, and Middle Earth all at the same time. Because I want to. As long as I remain intellectually honest and follow my spiritual path I'm fine.

 

[lightgigantic]

Faith is subjective. Spirituality is subjective.

sure

whether spiritual knowledge has recourse to anything other than faith is something else entirely though ....

It doesn't mean I don’t believe that the person actually feels the way they do. It just means …it’s their personal experience. While I respect their experience, I don't accept it as verifying that God exists.

By your standards, you’re suggesting that if I have a spiritual ‘experience’ with what I may perceive as ‘God,’ I should make others believe it to be true? I’m honestly trying to understand your post.

Basically your argument is a hybrid of "there are no absolutes" and suffers the same problems when it has no criteria beyond one's necessarily limited experiences

That's what religion is all about...subjective experiences (supposedly) by some folks way back in history, and those experiences are taught as truth of who God is...passed down through the ages. Generations following these religions.

Any sort of high end knowledge claim works by the same general principle ... namely experts in a field establishing qualities and behaviors of a subject while less aptly resourced people accept (or reject) it on faith alone

 

[lightgigantic]

@ lightgigantic;

And just to get back to the original topic...I am not interested in getting people to leave their respective views or faiths. I merely have stated why I have changed my spiritual stance to which some posters judged. Or misjudged.

So, I don't care what anyone believes but when asked, I explain my personal view. Which is also subjective.

its also a view derived from faith

 

[quinnsong]

Succubus or Incubus?

HAHA I thought you were talking about the band and then I realized that incubus are male demons and succubus are female demons. Good catch I did mean incubus. But how could I really know? Really?

 

[brucep]

When it comes to spirituality, there are no absolute truths.
It's all subjective. Spirituality is based on an individual's subjective experiences and preferred religious doctrine he/she may follow.
That is why when I was Christian, I didn't expect someone to take my view as an absolute truth. It was a belief I held, not an absolute truth.

If you think spirituality holds absolute truths, we will have to agree to disagree.

Here's what I said in reply to Jan Ardena:

''The truth is Jan, you aren't any closer to knowing with certainty the "truth" than I am.''

That is true. He agreed. Then asked me what truth was, and I also gave a subjective opinion as my reply.
I don't claim absolute truths, either.

Funny how it goes. You ask a question of folks who are atheists and you get bombarded by folks who want to save you from choosing hell. That's one of the main reasons I jettisoned Christianity.

 

[wegs]

As a young man I was an Episcopalian Acolyte and a devout Christian. Since my early 20's I've been an Atheist. In the end the creation mythology and a belief that there is some omnipresent God to pray to, for possible assistance in our daily lives, just doesn't have any correlation with my reality or logic. That doesn't mean spirituality isn't important to me. For me spirituality is an important part of my path through the universe. Intellectual honesty would be something my spirit would help me attain as much as possible [always difficult being completely honest]. I really enjoy science but it wasn't the reason that I separated myself from Christianity. Logic wasn't the main reason either. I can believe in the real world of science, Santa Claus, and Middle Earth all at the same time. Because I want to. As long as I remain intellectually honest and follow my spiritual path I'm fine.

Oh hey, brucep. Thanks for sharing this...
Yeah, I have always believed, and still do...that faith and science can coexist. They are not mutually exclusive, for those who follow any particular faith/religion/belief system.
What you say is so true...at the end of the day, we are all 'free' to believe as we wish. I find your story interesting, as to why you moved away from Christianity.

So, I found a book for my kindle, that I plan to read...that I think will help me in an objective sense.
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Believed-Reflections-Missionary-ebook/dp/B003UNLMRY/ref=zg_bs_12762_4

I lived in a bubble for a long time, brucep. I had no idea such books existed.

its also a view derived from faith

haha fair enough.

so you believe in God, lightgigantic? I'm not meaning to pry, just curious is all.

HAHA I thought you were talking about the band and then I realized that incubus are male demons and succubus are female demons. Good catch I did mean incubus. But how could I really know? Really?

I noticed that it was female when you posted it and I was like...well, now. lol

Funny how it goes. You ask a question of folks who are atheists and you get bombarded by folks who want to save you from choosing hell. That's one of the main reasons I jettisoned Christianity.

You know, I think it's from a place of caring. I do. I remember when a friend of mine left the Christian faith a few years ago, and there tends to be this pull to bring someone 'back.' I've never really believed in hell. Heaven, I did believe in that construct, for a long time. The idea of what it might be. But, never hell. So, when I would try to encourage my friend 'back' to the faith, it was always from a place of concern. Not for her soul, but maybe I just couldn't understand what she saw that I didn't see.

At the end of the day, living in authenticity, however that plays out...for a believer or not...is key to me. It's when we stay in religions for the wrong reasons. Or...leave them for the wrong reasons. It can happen both ways. Thanks for listening, and sharing here, brucep.

sure

whether spiritual knowledge has recourse to anything other than faith is something else entirely though ....

What do you mean? That's an interesting statement.

Basically your argument is a hybrid of "there are no absolutes" and suffers the same problems when it has no criteria beyond one's necessarily limited experiences

I don't really have an 'argument.' I just don't believe what I used to, for reasons I'm clear on. Now, if someone asks me of those reasons, and they disagree...what can I do? lol They are my reasons alone. I can't tell anyone that he/she is wrong to believe as they wish, but it's safe to assume, no one holds the key to knowing anymore than the next person, as it relates to the existence of a diety, or an after life, etc...

Any sort of high end knowledge claim works by the same general principle ... namely experts in a field establishing qualities and behaviors of a subject while less aptly resourced people accept (or reject) it on faith alone

Hmmm...

Yes...and some of those same ''experts''..or um leaders of religions....molest kids, oppress women, display bigotry, alienate homosexuals, teach racism, etc etc...

Those ''experts'' you mean?

Religion can be very deceiving that way.

I wasn't going to go there, but religion has caused a lot of people in this world, a lot of harm. And not just Christianity. This has nothing to do with why I left Christianity, but it just had to be said.

And I remember hearing back then, and even defending my own religion with....''well, that isn't religion, that is a group of people (within religion) doing immoral things.''

But, they get away with it through the guise of religion. People tend to trust religous leaders, without even really knowing them. So...religion has some positive attributes, but it can be an incredibly dangerous tool to use against people who trust it.

 

[Mazulu]

No it doesn't.

The space-time is the immortal, non-physical portion of the universe. I cannot put it in a bottle to display to you, but it does exist. Looks like a soul to me. Then, there is still the "origin of the bb/singularity" mystery. Sure, you can always argue that it was quantum foam. I am not even disputing that possibility. I guess you could say that I am playing both sides against the middle I really hope that God exists, but I don't expect to find a personal Christian God, I do expect to find an Infinite Intelligence or something that is cosmic and far beyond my existence. I also plan to fight, and win, the argument about whether or not we have a soul. The one "magical" event that science cannot explain is, the origin of the big bang. In order to make science and spirituality compatible, I have to show that a soul is compatible with nature. A soul is immortal, it has free will, and it is invisible/undetectable. Every one of us has a soul. I was dismayed to find that the only thing that seems to have a soul (from a scientific point of view) is the space-time continuum. If the laws of physics can be different for each and every universe/singularity that bubbles up from the quantum foam, then why is it not possible for those physics laws to be non-mathematical in nature? Why can't some universes be equivalent to a consciousness?

 

[spidergoat]

The space-time is the immortal, non-physical portion of the universe. I cannot put it in a bottle to display to you, but it does exist. Looks like a soul to me.

Space is physical, and time is not necessarily eternal, as it depends on things to take time to happen, in other words, physical events. Without the physical, there is also no time. In any case, why call that a soul? There is no evidence of a soul in humans, much less the rest of the universe.