another reason why the Christian bible is false

[Woody]

Oph said

What is a day of pain to something that is eternal, omnipotent and UNKILLABLE?

I don't know, I don't know, and I don't know. Do you think you have an answer? You aren't God so you can't say.

Heb 12:2

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

He despised the shame -- that means he didn't like it, but it was worth doing.

If his suffering was insignificant then we are a pitiful prize no doubt.

 

[SnakeLord]

Suppose Jesus is the human version of Christ but is not given full knowledge of who he really is.

1) So, he's just a human and actually dies?

2) He's a different god 'confused' by another god so he doesn't realise he's a god?

3) ?

Just clarifying the position first..

That way, the sacrifice is quite real, the pain is real and horrific, etc.

It is still of no consequence if he is eternal, unkillable and omnipotent. He might be suffering from some form of godly amnesia, but it doesn't change the fact that a day or two of pain is utterly meaningless when you live for a gazillion bajillion sasquillion years - or indeed when you get killed and stand up again 3 days later looking just peachy. Many of us humans will suffer extraordinary pain as we meet our deaths. Not many of us get to shrug it off a couple of days later. Woody expects me to feel oh so sorry for someone that can, for someone that exists forever, for someone that created pain to begin with. Frankly I find it pretty dumb.

The problem this raises is - if Jesus didn't know he was the son of God, then -

Why did he go around proclaiming that he was?

From a biblical standpoint, it would seem jesus knew his place and function. He already knew he was not only going to "die", (although every religious person I've ever met seems to concur that god can never ever die), but that he would be alive and happy 3 days down the line. Think about how calm and relaxed you would be, (even with the pain), if you knew 3 days after your death you'd be alive again and happy as larry. It's like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day.

Poison yourself, shoot yourself, jump off a roof, blow yourself up.. what difference would it make?

How could it actually be him? For instance if I was to download my brain into a computer simulation such I would be altered enough so that in the sim I didn't know that I was *actually* a being outside the sim, would it still be me in there??

Your brain is you. Having said that, if you were "altered" you would no longer be you.

 

[SnakeLord]

If his suffering was insignificant then we are a pitiful prize no doubt.

Why do you need a dead god to not have such poor feelings concerning yourself and humanity. What exactly did his three day non-death death do to anything?

But going back to the question at hand: Will you admit that a god, (your god), can NEVER die, or will you state that for 3 days god was completely non-existant?

 

[Lerxst]

1) So, he's just a human and actually dies?

2) He's a different god 'confused' by another god so he doesn't realise he's a god?

3) ?

Just clarifying the position first..

I mean he is human and really dies.

It is still of no consequence if he is eternal, unkillable and omnipotent. He might be suffering from some form of godly amnesia, but it doesn't change the fact that a day or two of pain is utterly meaningless when you live for a gazillion bajillion sasquillion years - or indeed when you get killed and stand up again 3 days later looking just peachy. Many of us humans will suffer extraordinary pain as we meet our deaths. Not many of us get to shrug it off a couple of days later. Woody expects me to feel oh so sorry for someone that can, for someone that exists forever, for someone that created pain to begin with. Frankly I find it pretty dumb.

I find it rather hard to grasp myself, hence my mental gymnastics in trying to find a way that it could make sense....

From a biblical standpoint, it would seem jesus knew his place and function. He already knew he was not only going to "die", (although every religious person I've ever met seems to concur that god can never ever die), but that he would be alive and happy 3 days down the line. Think about how calm and relaxed you would be, (even with the pain), if you knew 3 days after your death you'd be alive again and happy as larry. It's like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day.

That is why it all makes no sense to me if he knew it was going to happen.

*WARNING* Rambling, digression to follow.

Since you introduced a movie, I'll introduce another. The closest I ever came to understanding Christianity was from the Matrix trilogy. That doesn't mean I actually think I understand Christianity, it's just that there was something in the story that seemed to almost make sense - but not quite. The way I interpret it, God (the uber-machine, seen at the end) created Christ (Neo) and sent him to earth (the matrix). They endowed him with superhuman abilities even outside the matrix - he could stop the squiddies, for example. Then they let him choose, from his own free will, to battle to the death, and sacrifice himself, out of love, in order to possibly create a better world. Neo didn't understand what he was - he had some idea, but he didn't realize he was sent by the machines. (The obvious question is - why didn't the machines just fix the problem outright? Why send Neo to do it and die in the process? I don't know why, perhaps doing it out of free will is somehow the only bona fide way that the "salvation" could occur. I think the machines were aiming at some kind of evolutionary step themselves, trying to develop a type of free-will perhaps - hence they needed to make a half god-half man, or rather half machine, half-man being and let him demonstrate it could be done.)

Sorry for rambling - I'm just letting my mythological side loose there. But it brings up another point - regardless of the historicity of Jesus, etc., the Jesus idea is quite, quite real, and obviously very powerful. It has a weird kind of resonance with most people, which is why some variant on the hero theme has shown up in every culture. I think that is fascinating in and of itself. It's why I watch the matrix movies and keep getting this feeling that there is something crucial and important about the story. It is probably just a quirk of evolutionary history, wired in our brains.

Your brain is you. Having said that, if you were "altered" you would no longer be you.

If I am on mind-altering drugs am I no longer *me*?

 

[SnakeLord]

I mean he is human and really dies.

In this scenario his death is equally worthless in the grand scheme of things. Judging from Woody's outlook on life, the death of a human is hardly worth batting an eyelid for. In many ways that would be right. We rarely bother concerning ourselves with the deaths of people we never knew. Of course that's generally quite the opposite if we actually get to see them die, but thousands of people die every day that we just don't really acknowledge or care about.

Of course if he was a human and still came back to life 3 days later, I suppose his very first thought would be "wtf", (if he had have ever been introduced to the internet). But then, given that he is now alive and well again, his death and the pain would still lose it's meaning.

Since you introduced a movie, I'll introduce another. The closest I ever came to understanding Christianity was from the Matrix trilogy.

Well, the matrix was certainly christianity based.

(The obvious question is - why didn't the machines just fix the problem outright? Why send Neo to do it and die in the process?)

Therein lies the vast stupidity of the whole situation. There is no need or value in sending yourself to die a non-death kind of death just to 'save' creatures that you created to be as they are, from a hell that you created to be as it is. None of us are responsible for creating satan or putting him in the garden to tempt man - and yet we find an omnipotent, eternal being having to get himself whacked to save us from being us when he made it that way to begin with. It is indeed such utter and complete idiocy that the very thought makes me want to blow chunks.

perhaps doing it out of free will is somehow the only bona fide way that the "salvation" could occur.

Then omnipotence has no meaning or value, and god's a halfwit. Further to which, 'salvation' from what exactly? Being human?

It is probably just a quirk of evolutionary history, wired in our brains.

Am I perhaps the only person born without it?

If I am on mind-altering drugs am I no longer *me*?

Although it is somewhat different, fundamentally yes, you are no longer 'you'.

 

[Lerxst]

Am I perhaps the only person born without it?

No. As with anything, there is a distribution, and there will be statistical outliers. There is a deep-seated hankering for mythology that exists for many, many people - and I mean mythology in the Joseph Campbell sense of the term. Some people feel this to a high degree, others don't feel it at all. I think the middle quantiles feel it, though. It has shown up in every culture, and it is amazing how similar the stories can be... Campbell's book The Hero With A Thousand Faces goes through all this.

I think you can come to understand that the various religion stories are myths that are told for a reason - and learn that they are not to be taken literally but that they may contain metaphors and morals and thus they have a certain kind of value. Plus, they resonante with us, or with most of us. When I was 10 years old and saw Star Wars at the theatre when it first came out, it was, in a sense, a religious experience. Something clicked deep in my psyche. I think the appeal of many religious stories is similar.

When I watched The Passion of The Christ, I cried my eyes out. I'm not a Christian, I don't believe in the sacrifice, I find it just as puzzling and inexplicable and ultimately senseless as you do, but it still moved part of me. Quite strongly. It didn't cause me to want to go to church, but I enjoyed the fact that it made me wonder about the origin of this feeling. I highly doubt it was anything other than a sense of empathy, though.

 

[Woody]

Why do you need a dead god to not have such poor feelings concerning yourself and humanity. What exactly did his three day non-death death do to anything?

But going back to the question at hand: Will you admit that a god, (your god), can NEVER die, or will you state that for 3 days god was completely non-existant?

When humans die they continue to exist (the fundamentalist christian view). The body dies, but the soul never dies (fundamentalist christian view).

So to answer your question, Jesus died a physical death, but his spirit continued to live and it descended to hades in order to take the souls to heaven that were waiting for him there. If he ceased to exist when he died, then he is not God, and he is even less than a human.

Rev 1:18

I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

When Jesus came out of hades he took the keys to death and hell with him.

 

[RickyH]

Try pretending, even for a moment, that gods don't exist and then ask yourself if the plan would work. It's really very simple.

Let's pretend for one minute that ending anything that people are involved in is easy and always the best option. Is it? I would say yes, depending on the circumstances, but if it had anything to do with religion, race, or common beleifs, then no it's not.

The destruction of religion may very well be the end of the world? But how?

Well destroying religion kind of works the same way doesn't it? Where is the proof that this will work?

We are evolved, we all have to accept it first.

We are evolved yes, but not evolved enough.

 

[SnakeLord]

So to answer your question, Jesus died a physical death, but his spirit continued to live and it descended to hades in order to take the souls to heaven that were waiting for him there. If he ceased to exist when he died, then he is not God, and he is even less than a human.

Ok. So you are hereby agreeing that god never ever ever ever died. Right?

 

[Woody]

Ok. So you are hereby agreeing that god never ever ever ever died. Right?

His physical body died, but his spirit never died. After he was resurrected, he had a new body, unlike the one that died.

So in summary his body died, just like ours will die.
His soul lived on just like all men.
His spirit lived on like all believers that have been "born again."

(fundamentalist christian view).

When Jesus "died" on the cross, God had a baby. Flesh and blood were lost, but life was gained for believers.

 

[SnakeLord]

So you are hereby agreeing that god never ever ever ever died. Right?

 

[Woody]

So you are hereby agreeing that god never ever ever ever died. Right?

Both yes and no.


Everyone that has ever lived has never ever died as well, though their flesh died.

I agree that part of God died (that was in flesh) -- just like us. If part of your brain was removed and left out to decay it would die. You could go on living, but you would probably be a different person -- like somone that had a bad stroke. You would never be the same -- the person you once were would be "dead."

The analogy breaks down when you compare to God, God without Jesus would be an entirely different God, but if part of God was removed it could still think and feel on its own -- that part was Jesus (the head of the church) -- and His body died but his spirit did not.

 

[(Q)]

Let's pretend for one minute that ending anything that people are involved in is easy and always the best option. Is it? I would say yes, depending on the circumstances, but if it had anything to do with religion, race, or common beleifs, then no it's not.

As time goes on and our knowledge of the universe increases, the church has been forced to change its ideals when the evidence of science contradicts religious beliefs - like evolution, for example. That has been a monumental change and an end to those common beliefs. So, its only a matter of time until all religious beliefs come to an end.

Well destroying religion kind of works the same way doesn't it? Where is the proof that this will work?

The proof is in the putting and the simple logic of following a line of reasoning. We have yet to fully test such an ideal, but again, time and understanding WILL prevail and we will eventually see an end to religion. That is, if those same religious beliefs don't destroy us first.

We are evolved yes, but not evolved enough.

Some, perhaps, are more evolved than others. When will you evolve?

 

[TheVisitor]

We are evolved yes, but not evolved enough. ”
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Some, perhaps, are more evolved than others. When will you evolve?

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I think I'll let this guy handle my "light work" from now on..
No futher comment.

 

[terryoh]

heaven and hell,




if there were a christian god as the bible describes "him", then he would not send people to hell, because he forgives all. so if god has forgiven you why would he send you to hell, he is all loving and all caring, so as biblical "logic" goes, a hell wouldent exist, the almighty would just let everyone into heaven because having someone suffering in an eternal fire pit of pain and hardship, isnt really the actions of an almighty loving god bieng is it now, if somebody were to eat to much cake or pizza he would sin with gloutony, therefore without repenting his sin, would be banished to the fires of hell, (just for eating some cake?) thats a little harsh for the all loving god right?.




peace.

i'm assuming you're not a parent. if you were, you'd see the flaw in your logic.

let's say a child swears. like an all-loving God, parents will overlook and completely forgive the child the first few times. maybe many times, in fact. but if the child keeps say "i'm sorry" and then goes on to swear 3 seconds later, what is the parent supposed to do? constantly smile and say, "no no no, my child. swearing is wrong. no say sorry...again".

if you believe in that logic, DON'T be a parent, because your children can turn out pretty messed up. in fact, i guarantee it.

no, if a child keeps acting up and commits the wrong deed, eventually you'll have to be stern, maybe even harsh (i.e. grounding, shouting, or even a spanking) to get the message across that what the child was doing is wrong.

similarly, God looks at us the same way, except He's a lot more merciful and patient than the parent example i gave. God infinitely forgives us over and over again for our sins (from the day we are born up to the moments before we die). the problem is, we can't just say "sorry, forgive me" and then go off to sin again. there will come a point when enough is enough, where we haven't learned the message, and we will be punished for it. except, by that time, we will be in hell.

so if you don't want to go to hell, try to avoid sin as much as possible, and don't be one of those repeat offenders. it's as simple as that. well, not exactly, there is a matter of actually being religiously devout, but i guess that can go in a different thread (since i don't want to veer too far off topic).

 

[Hapsburg]

Is it elementary school or junior high?

It's a high school you dumbfuck. Read my profile. What year does it say I was born in? What year is it now? Do the math. Subtract my DOB from today's date. What do you get? 16. Thus, I am 16. 16 Year olds are in high school, sophomore year, retard, not three to six years years backwards. Maybe you were, but considering your moronic posts, that isn't all that surprising.

 

[SnakeLord]

no, if a child keeps acting up and commits the wrong deed, eventually you'll have to be stern, maybe even harsh (i.e. grounding, shouting, or even a spanking) to get the message across that what the child was doing is wrong.

The act of a bad parent. If it gets to this stage you're clearly doing something wrong. Don't feel singled out, most parents are doing something wrong.

I have never so much as raised my voice at my daughter or told her off. I do one thing the majority of parents don't do - and that's show my daughter respect. I treat her like I would treat any adult, and from that she is responsible and well behaved. All it takes is a little love and a little respect.

Here's a question though.. When your wife plays up, (maybe her time of the month or something), do you spank her aswell? Do you ground her and shout at her? You most likely do, and there lies the problem. It's not them, it's you.

God looks at us the same way, except He's a lot more merciful and patient than the parent example i gave. God infinitely forgives us over and over again for our sins

Except for the time when he decided to kill all of his children with a big ass flood. Right?

 

[Woody]

SL said,

Except for the time when he decided to kill all of his children with a big ass flood. Right?

How about the time it pleased God for his own son to die? Isaiah 53:10:

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

As for those that died in the flood, God gave them life to start with, and they weren't God's children -- ever.

 

[TheVisitor]

Except for the time when he decided to kill all of his children with a big ass flood. Right? .

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Actualy, His children were by that time all poluted hybrids with the bloodline of animals, Noah was the about the only "perfect" or one with pure blood left.
Him and His family were saved
First Eve was impregnated by the serpent, a humaniod animal, creating Cain - who mudered his brother Abel.
Then Seth the new brother and Cains unbelieving offspring stayed seperated till right down before the flood, and then men spread over the face of the earth....they ran out of room to stay seperate, and saw Cains daughters...the daughters of men.
The sons of God, Adam and Eves Children through Seths lineage married into Cains serpent seed hybrids, by taking their women for wives.
Marrying into a people of unbelief was always forbidden to God's pepole and Israel and was a primary reason they became cursed later on.
Balam was used by Balak to curse them by intermarage to unbelievers with the moabite woman, after the flood.
God laid down a history for us to see and learn from if we want to.
If God acted in a certain way one time.....
If the conditions are the same He will act that way again.

 

[Ophiolite]

Demonstrate the truth of your claims with scripture.