for arguments sake? Didn't know we were arguing.
Yeah, probably. But that is the kind of proof I would need.
I apreciate your honesty.
Jan.
An experiment in Atheism
- Thread starter S.A.M.
- Start date
I apreciate your honesty.
Jan.
Aww. Okay fine.
Your "guess" is completely unwarranted. It is not evidenced in society that people are comforted knowing they're going to cease to exist when they die.
My statements, and the statements of others, have given evidential reasons as to why people would devise the notion of an afterlife or heaven.
1) People in general do fear dying - but you'll find are more comforted under the notion that they will continue living after that time.
2) As a parent of a dead child myself, I can say that the notion that I would get to see my child again would be very comforting if I could find it in me to believe that this would happen. This even outranks number 1, the common statements being that upon death a person will get to "see their loved ones again".
3) It works as a good tool in battle. Soldiers that believe they will get an afterlife stand more chance of being successful in battle than those who are shit scared of dying.
4) You will notice the comfort factor most with children after their pet goldfish dies - and most parents would happily dream up any old crap to keep their children comfortable and happy.
Once again, I don't mind disagreement or a valid argument against this but you can't say "better to just drink moonshine", because it's pointless.
I would just like to concur with everything stated above.
The belief in an afterlife certainly helped my father when my mother died - and I doubt had it been for the strength of that belief that he would be still alive today, 7 years later.
There can be no denying that belief in an afterlife assuages fear of death. It doesn't remove it - but certainly helps people to cope with the facing of death - either one's own or someone elses.
To deny that fear of death is a damn good possible reason for the creation of the notion of an afterlife is to be, frankly, delusional - or just obstinately contrary. Or stupid.
The fact that there might be other ways to assuage the fear of death is irrelevant to the fact that fear of death is a damn good possible reason for the idea of an afterlife.
If you wish to continue to deny this then please put forward a coherent, logical argument.
Have you ever met with the concept of listening?
Something (you label as a miracle)that can be seperated from alternative explanation.
SnakeLord,
My guess is not unwarrented anymore than your guess is.
Show me the evidence which proves peoples fear of death is alleviated because they have been told about the afterlife. And then show me how a story of the afterlife could possibly alleviate fear of death.
No you haven't, you have supplied personal speculation.
Its comforting to know that progress is advancing in cancer treatment, but I still fear developing it.
Why?
I'm not sure which religion teaches that, but generally that is not what is meant by "afterlife" with regards to religion, or what you deem a man-made story.
Depend on if their fears ARE alleviated.
Why would they all of sudden lose the fear of dying, due to being told there is an afterlife? How does that encourage fearlessness?
Why do you think comfort=lack of fear?
Some do, some don't.
Pressumably the goldfish died, before the parents have to tell them any old crap, so please enlighten me as to where the fear comes into play.
Actually I was being light-hearted, but alcohol does alleviate fear, if even for a short while.
Jan.
My guess is not unwarrented anymore than your guess is.
Show me the evidence which proves peoples fear of death is alleviated because they have been told about the afterlife. And then show me how a story of the afterlife could possibly alleviate fear of death.
No you haven't, you have supplied personal speculation.
Its comforting to know that progress is advancing in cancer treatment, but I still fear developing it.
Why?
I'm not sure which religion teaches that, but generally that is not what is meant by "afterlife" with regards to religion, or what you deem a man-made story.
Depend on if their fears ARE alleviated.
Why would they all of sudden lose the fear of dying, due to being told there is an afterlife? How does that encourage fearlessness?
Why do you think comfort=lack of fear?
Some do, some don't.
Pressumably the goldfish died, before the parents have to tell them any old crap, so please enlighten me as to where the fear comes into play.
Actually I was being light-hearted, but alcohol does alleviate fear, if even for a short while.
Jan.
You're welcome.
It's so sad that theists need immalleable answers so much they are blind to honest conclusion and thus are just another tuckey for the picking .
Firstly we need to realise that 'being told' and 'believing in' are two completely different things - and thus your statement in itself is inaccurate. There's nothing to show that simply being told means you have less fear unless you believe in the claim.
As for 'evidence', what can I provide that will be satisfactory for you?
This has already been explained to you, and I'm actually hesitant to get into it because I am quite certain you know the answer to your own question.
Still, I shall use your analogy of cancer. You say you fear it, (as do most of us probably). Tell me, how much would you honestly fear cancer if you knew there was an available cure? The scariest of diseases and illnesses such as cancer and hiv are only as scary as they are because there isn't a 'cure'. If you could take a pill and wake up the next day without cancer, who would fear it?
(heaven is the pill).
Why?? You're asking an honest question? Why would a parent that has lost his child want to see him again and be comforted knowing that he will? Are you jerking my chain?
Well, your personal little idea on what "afterlife" means from a religious angle aside, we're talking people and belief, ideas passed from generation to generation. These ideas generally involve meeting loved ones and living in a place of harmony - free from the effects of 'evil' and nasty people. To be honest I get the impression that you're debating the issue for the mere sake of it. I can't honestly believe there's anything here you actually disagree with but that you want to disagree with it because it gives you something to do.
Please take into account that "alleviate" does not mean 'lose the fear', it simply means it's alleviated - made easier to come to terms with.
I said no such thing, I stated that a belief that you will continue to live after death 'alleviates' the fear of dying, (makes it easier to come to terms with).
I remember with my own kids that when the cat died they were quite distraught that they would never see her again - the idea is scary when you're actually quite attached to someone/something. From a parental perspective I feared having to explain to my girls that Tiffany was going to turn into worm food because of the possible impact such knowledge can have on the mind.
You're talking to a man that loves his alcohol, but I really don't think we could consider alcoholic consumption as the wisest overall choice to alleviate fear.
SnakeLord,
Errr.. i dunno, i'm responding to this;
What has been explained is that it gives comfort, which is one possible reason why it was made-up by man, not how it alleviates fear.
If I knew there was a cure? I wouldn't fear dying, because I would know i'm not going to die. I would fear the effect that it may have on me, unless of course the cure meant the cancer would instantly go away, then i wouldn't fear it.
If there was a 50% chance that i would be cured, then I would fear the consequences, but there would be a glimmer of hope that I could survive.
In short, my fear would go,
by sound knowledge and understanding, not by hope or wishful thinking.
Can you elaborate on that please?
I disagree that;
afterlife, as explained in scriptures, are a man-made idea
the idea of afterlife can quell the fear of death
some atheists are so because there is a lack of scientific evidence for God
Good point.
Then why do you disagree that other ideas can also make death easier to come to terms with?
And why, exactly, do you disagree that excessive alcohol intake can stop the actual fear of death, if even for a short while?
That was your fear, not theirs.
Wisdom doen't come into it.
It numbs the senses enough to irradicate the fear.
Jan.
Errr.. i dunno, i'm responding to this;
What has been explained is that it gives comfort, which is one possible reason why it was made-up by man, not how it alleviates fear.
If I knew there was a cure? I wouldn't fear dying, because I would know i'm not going to die. I would fear the effect that it may have on me, unless of course the cure meant the cancer would instantly go away, then i wouldn't fear it.
If there was a 50% chance that i would be cured, then I would fear the consequences, but there would be a glimmer of hope that I could survive.
In short, my fear would go,
by sound knowledge and understanding, not by hope or wishful thinking.
Can you elaborate on that please?
I disagree that;
afterlife, as explained in scriptures, are a man-made idea
the idea of afterlife can quell the fear of death
some atheists are so because there is a lack of scientific evidence for God
Good point.
Then why do you disagree that other ideas can also make death easier to come to terms with?
And why, exactly, do you disagree that excessive alcohol intake can stop the actual fear of death, if even for a short while?
That was your fear, not theirs.
Wisdom doen't come into it.
It numbs the senses enough to irradicate the fear.
Jan.
Honest conclusion?
I suggest you stop firing blanks, they have zero effect.
Jan.
Honest conclusion?
I suggest you stop firing blanks, they have zero effect.
Jan.
Precisely my point. Now if I was to preach that eternal damnation was thyne if you dont slip a fiver in the box. That would have plenty of affect on you wouldn't it?
There are many reasons that show it's a man made concept, of which that is just one. You asked me to show how it alleviates fear so now really is not the time to start telling me we're not talking about how it alleviates fear. :bugeye:
1) You can clearly see the concept is man made. Who else do you propose made the idea? Space hedgehogs from Alpha Centauri?
2) The concept of gods is man made. It stands to reason that the concept of heaven would follow that because without it there's absolutely no reason to worship the being or pay the priests. No heaven/hell = who gives a shit about gods?
Take into account that if you claim something other than man created texts that evidence would suggest were written by man and created by man then you need to do the work. An invisible guy in the sky did it? Lol.. show that to be the case.
3) The concept of an afterlife can help alleviate fear concerning mortality. It can help parents of dead children etc cope easier with the knowledge of their childs death because they believe they shall be with their child again - happy and healthy.
The list goes on.
There are many that "know" that they wont die, but instead will rise again - this time healthy and happy blah de blah.
The two are often confused. As a theist you must be aware of that - you have 'faith', not "sound knowledge and understanding". You hope, and wish that this being exists and loves you dearly and yet in general that hope and wish is passed as knowledge and understanding.
Which version?
It can alleviate that fear. You know that.
Atheists are atheists because there is nothing to justify the claimed existence of gods.
Where did I do that exactly? My argument is that you cannot use "moonshine" and call it a worthwhile longterm alternative.
I didn't disagree.
Indeed. The point?
Clearly you miss the point. I'm saying it is not a very sound long term alternative.
Religion can also cause fear in the same person that is supposed to be helped by it, within the very same person who actually believes in it.
How many thousands have died in the fear and dread of God, instead of comfort and peace, fearful that they would spend an eternity in hell, because they could never measure up to the standards of their faith in some way? Many even end up doubting that they ever had real "saving faith".
The way to heaven, at least in the Bible, is supposed to be very narrow indeed, not wide. Supposedly only a very few will ever find it.
The rest will burn! Aren’t those comforting words to think about while you are on your death bed?
How many thousands have died in the fear and dread of God, instead of comfort and peace, fearful that they would spend an eternity in hell, because they could never measure up to the standards of their faith in some way? Many even end up doubting that they ever had real "saving faith".
The way to heaven, at least in the Bible, is supposed to be very narrow indeed, not wide. Supposedly only a very few will ever find it.
The rest will burn! Aren’t those comforting words to think about while you are on your death bed?
Then you are delusional.
There is no other word for it, really: you hold this belief in the face of fact to the contrary...
I am an atheist for this reason.
Many on this site are atheist for this very reason.
Is it that you disagree that there is no scientific evidence for God (and if so - what is this evidence)?
Or are you disagreeing because you think our atheism stems from something else entirely? - and if so - what?
Sarkus,
Surprise surprise!!
You say "fact", do you mean fact in the scientific sense?
I've already stated what I disagree with.
I do think your brand of atheism is more than what atheism actually is, but as to what it is, I can't say for sure.
You seem, pointlessly angry (by YOU I mean a certain type of atheist)
You think theists are irrational and deluded
You don't actually seem interested in religion itself
You puposely lump everything together into one big group, most probably in a bid to make the whole thing seem confusing
Some of you people are just downright nasty, which falls outside of the concept of atheism
You don't seem satisfied with your position of being an atheist....
Jan.
Surprise surprise!!
You say "fact", do you mean fact in the scientific sense?
I've already stated what I disagree with.
I do think your brand of atheism is more than what atheism actually is, but as to what it is, I can't say for sure.
You seem, pointlessly angry (by YOU I mean a certain type of atheist)
You think theists are irrational and deluded
You don't actually seem interested in religion itself
You puposely lump everything together into one big group, most probably in a bid to make the whole thing seem confusing
Some of you people are just downright nasty, which falls outside of the concept of atheism
You don't seem satisfied with your position of being an atheist....
Jan.