An experiment in Atheism

[GhostofMaxwell.]

Why? Faith and belief are two different things. Faith is need to act upon your beliefs.

OK .....................................

 

[SnakeLord]

What reasons would human beings have for making up an idea such as afterlife?

Do you remember that part in Lord of the Rings when Sauron is gathering his army - which is about to set out to destroy Middle Earth? Gandalf is standing with the hobbit who says he's scared of the battle that is about to commence. Gandalf explains that this life is just a doorway to another life. His explanations to the hobbit that there is another life after this one calms the hobbit and makes for a much braver fighter.

If your soldiers believe that even if they die they will continue to live you'll stand much more chance of being the victor and you can do things an army without believers wont generally do, (such as happily flying planes into buildings). It removes a lot of the fear that can overcome troops, it leads to a more serious assault as opposed to cowering behind rocks and it will generally prevent a troop being too concerned when he sees a fellow soldier die in combat. Heaven is a great tool for wars.

 

[GhostofMaxwell.]

GhostofMaxwell,



And how would you conclude that God exists from such an event?

You would conclude that your miracles are real from that. By definition a miracle is an act of god, therefor I would let you have it that your god exists if you can demonstrate that something is the result of a miracle. I cant say fairer than that gov!

No need to invent the afterlife for that.

There's every need to want something more after death and so convince yourself there is an afterlife.

 

[Jan Ardena]

GhostofMaxwell,

You would conclude that your miracles are real from that.

How would you conclude that it is a miracle, and not a random act of nature? That is the question.
Another question; do you know or believe that the scientific method is capable of such discrimination, and if you do, can you give a reason as to why??

By definition a miracle is an act of god, therefor I would let you have it that your god exists if you can demonstrate that something is the result of a miracle. I cant say fairer than that gov!

Read above.

There's every need to want something more after death and so convince yourself there is an afterlife.

Non-sequitor.

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Do you remember that part in Lord of the Rings when Sauron is gathering his army - which is about to set out to destroy Middle Earth? Gandalf is standing with the hobbit who says he's scared of the battle that is about to commence. Gandalf explains that this life is just a doorway to another life. His explanations to the hobbit that there is another life after this one calms the hobbit and makes for a much braver fighter.

If your soldiers believe that even if they die they will continue to live you'll stand much more chance of being the victor and you can do things an army without believers wont generally do, (such as happily flying planes into buildings). It removes a lot of the fear that can overcome troops, it leads to a more serious assault as opposed to cowering behind rocks and it will generally prevent a troop being too concerned when he sees a fellow soldier die in combat. Heaven is a great tool for wars.

But you don't need an afterlife story to make soldier fight on the battle-feild, agreed?

Jan.

 

[GhostofMaxwell.]

GhostofMaxwell,



How would you conclude that it is a miracle, and not a random act of nature? That is the question..

Standards.

Another question; do you know or believe that the scientific method is capable of such discrimination, and if you do, can you give a reason as to why??

It wouldn't give you a 100% certainty if thats what you mean, but if your miracle passes stringent standards it can give you something like o.o5% chance of error.

Non-sequitor.

Fancy words dont necessarily mean you can apply them correctly.

 

[Sarkus]

non-sequitor.

How so?
The idea of an afterlife is very appealing to those with a fear of death.
You did, afterall, ask what would make someone make up the idea of the afterlife: "What reasons would human beings have for making up an idea such as afterlife?"

Just stating that you think a rational answer is a non-sequitor does not make it so.
Or maybe you don't understand the term you used?

I would say that's not true, by our conversations.

Apologies for disappointing you, then - but that IS my position - and you would be wrong in saying that it's not true.

That is pure ignorance.
I suggest you read any scripture.;

I suggest that YOU read up on the ancient gods of Rome and Greece, to name but two pantheons and divinities that had nothing whatsoever to do with your one God.

You can state your belief, based on whatever scripture you want, that everything comes from your God - but if someone else's belief of THEIR god states otherwise then you are at an empasse and it comes down to the aforementioned "my god is better than yours".

And where do all the divinities come from.
Again read scriptures.

So now you're saying that the FSM comes from God?

Nothing but a case of "my god is better than yours".

You can give whatever name you like to it, but it means a belief in God period.

You can change the meaning of "theism" however you want to suit your argument, just don't expect us to agree with you if you do.

 

[SnakeLord]

But you don't need an afterlife story to make soldier fight on the battle-feild, agreed?

When and where?

Let's look at England for example between 1664 and the early nineteenth century.. They didn't need stories to get people to serve in the army... No sir, they just needed a large heavy wooden object.

Indeed 'press ganging' still goes on today in some places.

While you can 'make' people fight and while you can punish or kill those that refuse to, it doesn't make for much of a good army.

The idea with having an army is that they win. Once again, heaven is a great tool for that.

 

[GeoffP]

I would argue nationalism as well: the use of convict, dreg-of-the-earth armies by the British for hundreds of years worked quite well.

For the Brits, at least. Others are reportedly not so happy about the system.

 

[Sarkus]

For the Brits, at least. Others are reportedly not so happy about the system.

By others, do you mean the countries that got their butts handed to them by the Brits?

 

[James R]

Jan:

"Less likely" still doesn't make it true, which means we are back to square one again, so I conclude "a miracle of some sort" could not be counted as evidence of God, lest it be true, which means it doesn't matter how many people witness it.

Ok then, have it your way. Miracles aren't evidence of God. Somewhat strange reasoning, though, since by definition a miracle is supposed to be the act of a deity.

Evidence of Gods existence is not dependant on when the scriptures were written, plus the bible is not the only scripture.

What is evidence of God's existence dependent on?

So when you say "some sort of miracle", you really mean God must show himself?

That's what a miracle is usually understood to involve, is it not?

What reasons would human beings have for making up an idea such as afterlife?

There are many reasons. Hope for a better life after death than the one you have in life. The idea that some part of you continues on after the death of your body. It's comforting.

Note that virtually all human societies have invented this concept, regardless of which god they believe in.

Not necessarily. One can believe in God without faith, it all depends on how you define "believe in".

Explain.

And theist don't believe God doesn't exist.
What it boils down to, is that we believe either God exists, or doesn't exist.

So we agree then. Why labour the point?

Whatever you truly believe, you will adhere to, but we're talking about muslims, and Islam.

You've lost me. Did you have a point to make here?

Why put Zeus and Shiva in the same category as Yahweh and Allah?
God and gods, are two categories.

No. God is just one of many gods. God - singular. Gods - plural.

But that's not what "theist" means, it means belief in God. You have taken it upon yourself to lump everything together, as if it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter which god or gods you believe in. You're still a theist. Look it up.

Everything is derived from "God" the Supreme Being, from whom everything emanatesm, even atheism.

That's an unsupported assertion.

For non-belief in just the Christian God, for example, we can call a person "non-Christian".

That is a modern teminology. A christian is a follower of Christ, period. Christ believed in the same Supreme Being that I mentioned earlier.

We agree, again. Why bother repeating what I've said like it's a new point?

Obviously, a person can be non-Christian and yet not atheist. But they can't be atheist and believe in any god.

Why not? It would depend on the "god" they believed in.

No. Atheist = person who does not believe in gods. Ergo, if you believe in a god, you are not an atheist.

It's really not that hard.

Some atheists regard themselves as "naturalists", meaning they believe in nature, and nature is regarded as a personality in some religions.

Is nature a supernatural being?

My understanding of wiccans/witches is that they believe in nature, not God.

Do they believe in supernatural beings?

Are you beginning to see the usefulness of my definition now?

Satanists also fall into the category of atheism, or at least some types of satanists.

Is Satan a supernatural being?

Buddha talked about Lord Indra, the king of the demi-gods, and his abode, and his followers are classed as atheist.

Is Indra a supernatural being?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Sarkus,

How so?
The idea of an afterlife is very appealing to those with a fear of death.

That is not a reason for human beings to make up an idea of the afterlife.
The "afterlife" could just as easily be not made up.

Just stating that you think a rational answer is a non-sequitor does not make it so.
Or maybe you don't understand the term you used?

I imagine the idea of an afterlife is "appealing", period.
But it doesn't explain why human beings would make up such an elaborate idea.

Apologies for disappointing you, then - but that IS my position - and you would be wrong in saying that it's not true.

I understand your frustration, but based on our conversations, and reading conversations you have with others, I don't believe I am wrong.

I suggest that YOU read up on the ancient gods of Rome and Greece, to name but two pantheons and divinities that had nothing whatsoever to do with your one God.

What religion is this, and where are the scriptures?

You can state your belief, based on whatever scripture you want, that everything comes from your God - but if someone else's belief of THEIR god states otherwise then you are at an empasse and it comes down to the aforementioned "my god is better than yours".

If God is described as the Supreme Being (param-brahman) from whom every emanates, and who is the controller of material nature, then in my mind that is the ultimate "God".
There is no "impasse" regarding someone else's belief in a "god", as a "god" is regarded as a material being (albeit subtle).

Nothing but a case of "my god is better than yours".

And where do all the divinities come from.
Again read scriptures.

How so?
God would not be God if this wasn't the case.

You can change the meaning of "theism" however you want to suit your argument, just don't expect us to agree with you if you do.

Of course I don't. Where would the fun be in that.

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

GhostofMaxwell

Standards.

What do you mean by standards?

It wouldn't give you a 100% certainty if thats what you mean, but if your miracle passes stringent standards it can give you something like o.o5% chance of error.

Again what are the standards by which you would deem a miracle, a miracle, concluding that God exists?

Fancy words dont necessarily mean you can apply them correctly.

It can also mean I can apply them correctly. What's your point?

Jan.

 

[GhostofMaxwell.]

GhostofMaxwell



What do you mean by standards?

.

No I really dont think you do know do you?

Again what are the standards by which you would deem a miracle, a miracle, concluding that God exists?

Standards are used to determine whether a hypothesis is statistically significant. Time can be a great bolster to a finding also i.e it's never ever been observed that an apple doesnt fall to the ground.

It can also mean I can apply them correctly. What's your point?

Thats a non sequitur!

 

[Sarkus]

That is not a reason for human beings to make up an idea of the afterlife.
The "afterlife" could just as easily be not made up.

I imagine the idea of an afterlife is "appealing", period.
But it doesn't explain why human beings would make up such an elaborate idea.

Er... yes it does.
It IS a reason, Jan.
People make up ideas to calm fears - period.
People have a fear of death - so how do you calm such fears? I know - create the idea of an afterlife - so that people never really die.

You didn't ask for THE reason (which we will never establish) but A reason. If you can't see that fear of death is a damn good reason... well, I know you aren't a particularly stupid person, Jan, so the only alternative is that you're deliberately being argumentative and/or dishonest.

I understand your frustration, but based on our conversations, and reading conversations you have with others, I don't believe I am wrong.

It's not a question of belief, Jan. It is a fact... you ARE wrong in this: I have no more a belief that god doesn't exist than I do that he does exist.
All my arguments have stemmed from this - resulting from the absence of evidence for both extremes.

I do admit that in the absence of evidence that non-existence is a default position to take - but this is not a statement of belief - just a matter of how one leads ones life.
Maybe this is where your apparent confusion lies.

What religion is this, and where are the scriptures?

Religions aren't always founded on scriptures, Jan - scriptures that, it must be said, have no evidence for their authority other than their own say so.

Roman and Greek religions were more based on a series of traditions, superstitions, rituals, taboos etc. More a contract between themselves and their gods.
It makes their beliefs no less valid in the absence of evidence - unless you go for a "my god is better than yours".

As I said - I suggest you do some reading on the matter.

If God is described as the Supreme Being (param-brahman) from whom every emanates, and who is the controller of material nature, then in my mind that is the ultimate "God".

"My god is better than yours - Na na na na na!"

There is no "impasse" regarding someone else's belief in a "god", as a "god" is regarded as a material being (albeit subtle).

"My god is better than yours - Na na na na na!"

 

[Neddy Bate]

Lets have some convincing arguments for atheism, that do NOT involve any talk about theism, theists or morality.

Why is atheism the better option?

I don't think that anyone is claiming, "Atheism is the better option". It just happens to be one of many possible options -- (thank god) and especially so for those of us who might be a bit confused as to which god wants us to do which thing, and when. (I can't hear him/her that well) so I try not to screw up the Almighty Plan....

 

[Jan Ardena]

GhostofMaxwell,

How would you conclude that it is a miracle, and not a random act of nature? That is the question..

Standards.

What do you mean by standards?

No I really dont think you do know do you

How perceptive of you.

Standards are used to determine whether a hypothesis is statistically significant.

I know that.
I'm interested how it would conclude that a miracle is a miracle.

Thats a non sequitur!

That's your point?

Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Sarkus,

Er... yes it does.
It IS a reason, Jan.
People make up ideas to calm fears - period.
People have a fear of death - so how do you calm such fears? I know - create the idea of an afterlife - so that people never really die.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

You didn't ask for THE reason (which we will never establish) but A reason. If you can't see that fear of death is a damn good reason... well, I know you aren't a particularly stupid person, Jan, so the only alternative is that you're deliberately being argumentative and/or dishonest.

Fear of death, is fear of death. I don't see how creating a concept involving the afterlife can alleviate the fear. Can you explain how it could?

It's not a question of belief, Jan. It is a fact... you ARE wrong in this: I have no more a belief that god doesn't exist than I do that he does exist.
All my arguments have stemmed from this - resulting from the absence of evidence for both extremes.

I believe that you believe it to be a fact. I see you all the time attempting to occupy that position, but on a few occasions I have seen your guard down which leads me to believe that is not the case.

I do admit that in the absence of evidence that non-existence is a default position to take - but this is not a statement of belief - just a matter of how one leads ones life.
Maybe this is where your apparent confusion lies.

I'm not confused about the issue, although you are free to believe so.

Jan - scriptures that, it must be said, have no evidence for their authority other than their own say so.

I have no idea what you mean by "evidence" in this context.

Roman and Greek religions were more based on a series of traditions, superstitions, rituals, taboos etc. More a contract between themselves and their gods.

Those Romans and Greeks, heh.

It makes their beliefs no less valid in the absence of evidence - unless you go for a "my god is better than yours".

What would you regard as evidence?

As I said - I suggest you do some reading on the matter.

Why?

"My god is better than yours - Na na na na na!"

"My god is better than yours - Na na na na na!"

There's the real Sarkus.

Jan.l

 

[GhostofMaxwell.]

.
I'm interested how it would conclude that a miracle is a miracle.


.

By ruling out other explanation i.e. cancer can recede by itself. Scientists could set up control groups to compare with a group of cancer patients that have (unbeknownst to them) been prayed for to rule out this eventuality in this case.

 

[Sarkus]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
...
Fear of death, is fear of death. I don't see how creating a concept involving the afterlife can alleviate the fear. Can you explain how it could?

If someone believes they are going to a "better place" and will reside next to their god, why fear that death as much?

I believe that you believe it to be a fact. I see you all the time attempting to occupy that position, but on a few occasions I have seen your guard down which leads me to believe that is not the case.

To be honest, Jan, I really couldn't care what you think or believe on this. Feel free to point out where you think my "guard down", though. The only time you will think you see it is when you don't actually understand the position I hold.