American freedoms?

[Roman]

Ironically Fascism (you know, the same right wing nut stuff you like so much in the USA) brought Communism into Europe. Europe was not liberated from communism by freedom. Hitler was a reaction to communist values. Hitler tried to get rid of communism, but all he did was to lay the road wide open for communism in Europe.

I always thought Europe became socialist out of necessity. The workers their were far more poor than American workers and had very little private property. European countries are about the size of American's western states. So everyone had to share for anyone to get anything.

Meanwhile, America wass so big and resource rich that it hardly made sense to share resources. It worked better if everyone maximized personal wealth in competition.

In terms of ecology, there were far more accessible niches in America at the turn of the century than in Europe. European workforces were saturated, and the only way for new workers to gain anything was through socialism.

 

[Giskard]

Roman:"Maybe kinda sorta. The way our electorate system is set up, we the people haven't much direct control over our leaders. We certainly have lots, but not enough to truly claim that all power comes from the people. "

You describe how it now works, I was referring to the way it is supposed to work according to our Constitution. 200 years of indifference has allowed the pro centralist government types to change the intentions of the Constitution and decades of liberal socialism has cemented those changes in place.

 

[Roman]

You describe how it now works, I was referring to the way it is supposed to work according to our Constitution. 200 years of indifference has allowed the pro centralist government types to change the intentions of the Constitution and decades of liberal socialism has cemented those changes in place.

Not at all. Our founding fathers had little trust in the common man. In fact, prior to the mass immigrations of the 1900's and liberalism as you call it, the constitution actually limited voters rights further! Other than denying blacks and women the vote, you couldn't vote directly for you senator, presidents had no term limits, and there were no referenda or ballot initiatives.

 

[crazy151drinker]

We wouldnt have the worlds largest economy if all we did was 'consume'. We do produce alot of shit ya know Dont get fooled by the statistics that show the population shifting over to 'services' and other things. It Doesnt mean that we are not producing, just that we are producing more effieciently. Perfect example is food. How many farmers do we have? Yet, we Produce far more food than we ever have previously.
Some products like Steel have crapped out do to our own inability to remain efficient and competative.
The only Freedom that I lack is the ability to distill my own spirits. Stupid ATF.
If Russia has all the same 'Freedoms' that we have here in the U.S. then why do they immigrate here? If the U.S. has no "Freedoms" or they are the same as other countries, then why do people come here?? Maybe you should be asking these questions to an immigrant.

 

[dixonmassey]

Ironically Fascism (you know, the same right wing nut stuff you like so much in the USA) brought Communism into Europe.

That was quite a statement. Ideas about more just society were flying around Europe for millenia before Hitler. Were Marx have been born/worked?
Do you know? Do you know that Marx has not created his works out of thin air? There was a string of proto "communist" Europian thinkers before Marx.
Marxism/Communism are WESTERN EUROPIAN longings/ideas/etc., not Russian. Marxism was transplanted into Russian soil, and it was transformed beyond recognition. Suffice to say that Marx was kind of racist towards Russians. He thought that Eastern savages are too backward to embrace his advanced societary ideas, which he conceived exclusively for Western Europian supermen. Thus, communism (ideas, at least) was always in Europe. It's its child. So, your statement is quite ridiculous. There was a communist revolution in Germany in 1919 (I believe), long before Hitler came to power.

Hitler was a reaction to communist values.

That is another "advanced" unsubstantiated statement. Hitler was legitimately elected by German democratic society (which was leaning to the left, btw) not as protector against communist threat, put as a potential rebuilder of Great Germany, restorer of nation's dignity. Yes, Hitler did not like commusists mainly because He perceived communism as a Jewish invention to undermine nation states (read Mein Kampf) and to enslave goyims.

Hitler tried to get rid of communism, but all he did was to lay the road wide open for communism in Europe.

Hitler tried to extend German borders to infinity and beyond, Hitler tried to exterminate undesirables to let German superhumans occupy new lands,
the last thing on Hitler's mind was holy war against communism. Sure thing, the motive of "war against communist savages" was used in propaganda (in particularly to recruit Western Europian youth into German army), it was used as a justification of aggression. But communist threat did not bother Hitler, he dealt with German communists swiftly in early 1930th. He was not afraid of them, nationalism is a proven power. He needed lots of Land in the East, that's all. Had USSR been an exemplary liberal capitalist democracy, another excuse would have been invented. Germany needed land. Another issue is ammoral behavior of Great Brittain and France, which may have had an agenda of holy anticommunist/antirussian war. These two bloody bitches did everything to make WWII possible.

 

[dixonmassey]

I think that in our cultural philosophy, only a freedom of consumption will allow us to be free otherwise.

Common man, liberal market societies are built on FEAR. Fear of joblessness, $ lessness, poverty, illness, etc. Freedom of consumption is for those currently with $. But independently if a Joe is with $ or Joe is on a skid row, Joe is scared/cautious of uncertain future. Joe is most likely on prozac too.

Freedom assumes the sense of confidence, fear of the future, fear of economic problem, illness, joblessness etc. turns "freedom" into a meaningless abstraction. Even don't start on "everyone has an opportunity". First, not everyone. Secondly, Freedom is NOT an opportunity. Opportunity is everywhere, even in a concentration camp, on the death row ... Freedom is a 100% certainty. Either you have a right or not. Freedom of speech means little for a hungry, jobless man without right for a job paying for a piece of bread.

Consumption allows you to be free otherwise? Sure, essential consumption (like food,shelter,etc.). But let's assume you have food, health, shelter. How does chosing out of 30 kinds of cheese or 500 junk TV channels makes you free otherwise? That's essentially a Joe (with $) is being offered: tonnes of brainwashing + Wally World=freedom?

By extension, the more material goods we may attain, the less we have to worry about.

Questionable statement. You live in a society built on fear and worries. No ammount of stuff will take those away.

I mean, at what period in human history do you have a society that is so materially wealthy that they can worry about the ethical treatment of food animals?

Srange, I've thought that empathy towards animals was with humans for millenia before yuppies got excited. "Ethical treatment of food animals" that sounds oxymoron. Yuppies exist in oxymoron corporate world with its imbecile language. They couldn't come up with any better.

Environmentalism, however one sees it (personally, I'm a fan), is a fairly recent philosophy, and seems to be associated with urban, material rich idustrial societies.

Environmentalism is a refuge of pampered hypocrites. Is "war" or decadence are two the only alternatives humanity has?

If everyone is free to consume as much as they wish, then you eliminate the slavery of want.

Well, then a pig in a stall stocked with food should be an ideal of freedom. Slavery of want cannot be eliminated by stuff. There is never enough. That's human nature.

And the necessity to consume to support American companies and workers.

Americans don't produce much of the real stuff. They serve, distribute and consume.

A look at America's early 20th century imperialist rhetoric does a great deal in explaining our current thinking.

Great advancements in brain/masses control resulted into a society of individuals who think that they think. In reality, somebody elses decides what they should think. It's valid not only for USA. Western mind control technologies (combined with treason of Soviet elite) were applied to USSR (with well known results). I cannot recollect "PEREsTROIKA" times without shame. People were behaving like easily programmed drones, gladly executing self-destructing commands. Never again (for me, at least).

 

[Giskard]

Roman:"Our founding fathers had little trust in the common man. In fact, prior to the mass immigrations of the 1900's and liberalism as you call it, the constitution actually limited voters rights further! Other than denying blacks and women the vote, you couldn't vote directly for you senator, presidents had no term limits, and there were no referenda or ballot initiatives. "

Acutally the debate between Jefferson and Hamilton was to this exact point. Jefferson trusted the common man and advocated a weak central government while Hamilton felt a strong central government was necessary to control the common man. The Constitution didn't limit voter rights per say, it established the lawful means to vote. Those means were later expanded. I know you will think this is symantics, but one must understand that these methods were a new way of thinking and the Founders weren't so much as limiting but establishing. Of course they did so within the restrictions and customs of their society at the time. So when you say the "denied blacks and women the right vote" it was not a vindictive, expressed denial that such a statement would imply but more an omission due to the way society saw things in those days. As to the original way to elect Senators, I believe it was a much better way, as was not having term limits as was not having ballot initiatives and referenda. Those particular changes, liberal and socialist in nature, have corrupted the way our government runs. Perhaps the Founding Fathers were correct and we should have left well enough alone.

 

[dixonmassey]

We wouldnt have the worlds largest economy if all we did was 'consume'.

Sure thing. USA has become largest economy some time ago. Today, it's "cashing in on" time (for ruling elite mostly + crumbles for plebeians).

We do produce alot of shit ya know

Like? Carriers, missiles, .... sure (out of significantly foreign made parts). There is no question that some remnants of past manufacturing glory are still around. Many remnants are simply being run into ground (eyewitness account) However, taking military assembly plants, plants hard to move (for various reasons) there is not that much left. Sure, it's not Americans fault or shame, it's the "the system" they live under. If foreigners are stupid enough to work for empty green bills, let them. We live in the time of a gigantic dollar pyramide. Its fall will made great depression look like a pale immitation.

Dont get fooled by the statistics that show the population shifting over to 'services' and other things. It Doesnt mean that we are not producing, just that we are producing more effieciently.

You are repeating Rush almost word to word. Are you a fan? It could be true if instead of "human saturated" plants new "automated" plants were built. There are some cases of that. But mostly it's not the case. Human wage slaves are cheaper than smart machines.

Perfect example is food.

Dear, you live in the past. USA is on the verge to import more food than it exports. Also, your perfect example would be correct if to compare agriculture of 1900s with that of 2005. However, if you'll compare 1980s with 2005 , nothing will be left of "perfection".

How many farmers do we have? Yet, we Produce far more food than we ever have previously.

See above. Plus, there is a price to pay for the abundance - health, taste, waist, waste of resources, pollution. Tell me, o believer that market is an infallible God, what is the sense in transforming of farmers/agricultural workers into pet shit scoopers, McD workers, etc. and at the same time manufacturing and spreading tens of millions of tonnes of gerbicides/incecticides, burning billions of gallons of fuel, stuffing food with all kind of preservative crap to replace those people? From stand point of long term societary interests, transforming farmers and laborers into servants performing totally unessential services (or being jobless) is a CRIME against future generations.

Some products like Steel have crapped out do to our own inability to remain efficient and competative.

Too many enveromental hassles, workers cannot work for $0.5/hr. And, as I said, foreigners are glad to work for green worthless paper. Let them. The last one who will stuck with American paper will pay for the American consumption (or over consumption)

The only Freedom that I lack is the ability to distill my own spirits. Stupid ATF.

North Carolinians told me that it's legal to make moonshine for personal consumption.

If Russia has all the same 'Freedoms' that we have here in the U.S. then why do they immigrate here?

Obviously, contrary to propaganda staples, most of immigrants came to the USA in the searches of higher standards of living (not some abstract unrelated to consumption freedoms). Russian emmigrants are not an exception.

If the U.S. has no "Freedoms" or they are the same as other countries, then why do people come here?? Maybe you should be asking these questions to an immigrant.

Higher standards of living on the average. Friendlier attitude (or rather indifference) towards foreigners here. Old myths. Freedom to chose one elitist moron over the other in meaningless elections does not attract people here.

 

[laughing weasel]

society is more than about getting ahead it is also about keeping your stuff. poor ignorant people will take desperate measures when things are desperate. one of the objects of the american way is to allow people to believe that it is easier to get ahead within thew system than it is to change or destroy the system. we are allowed to own more than just land we are allowed intellectual property(mostly). our system makes it easier for the hitlers,maos, and pol pots to become presidents than dictators. free medical care is for everyone just wait until tb becomes more resistant. but it should not be as high quality as the medical care that is paid for. see legal representation. education should be the same way. Wow i just convinced myself to oppose vouchers.

 

[firdroirich]

I can't say it better than Kahlil Gibran - so here it is :


And an orator said, "Speak to us of Freedom."

And he answered:

At the city gate and by your fireside I have seen you prostrate yourself and worship your own freedom,

Even as slaves humble themselves before a tyrant and praise him though he slays them.

Ay, in the grove of the temple and in the shadow of the citadel I have seen the freest among you wear their freedom as a yoke and a handcuff.

And my heart bled within me; for you can only be free when even the desire of seeking freedom becomes a harness to you, and when you cease to speak of freedom as a goal and a fulfillment.

You shall be free indeed when your days are not without a care nor your nights without a want and a grief,

But rather when these things girdle your life and yet you rise above them naked and unbound.

And how shall you rise beyond your days and nights unless you break the chains which you at the dawn of your understanding have fastened around your noon hour?

In truth that which you call freedom is the strongest of these chains, though its links glitter in the sun and dazzle the eyes.

And what is it but fragments of your own self you would discard that you may become free?

If it is an unjust law you would abolish, that law was written with your own hand upon your own forehead.

You cannot erase it by burning your law books nor by washing the foreheads of your judges, though you pour the sea upon them.

And if it is a despot you would dethrone, see first that his throne erected within you is destroyed.

For how can a tyrant rule the free and the proud, but for a tyranny in their own freedom and a shame in their won pride?

And if it is a care you would cast off, that care has been chosen by you rather than imposed upon you.

And if it is a fear you would dispel, the seat of that fear is in your heart and not in the hand of the feared.

Verily all things move within your being in constant half embrace, the desired and the dreaded, the repugnant and the cherished, the pursued and that which you would escape.

These things move within you as lights and shadows in pairs that cling.

And when the shadow fades and is no more, the light that lingers becomes a shadow to another light.

And thus your freedom when it loses its fetters becomes itself the fetter of a greater freedom.

 

[KitNyx]

Thank you. I enjoyed that poem. Very true.

I agree that our government the way it is running today is not the way our nations builders intended. I believe the intention was a society base upon negative liberty not positive liberty.

I believe it is my job to pay for those services I use. I believe it should be my right to do as I please as long as I do not infringe upon others right to do likewise.

Currently , the US is much more like communism than people see. I keep reading about the consumerism in America...I can not even own land...wait, let me explain. Supposedly, I do own land. I own a small city plot in mid-US, but I pay almost $2000 per year on property tax. I do not drive, I ride my bicycle the 8 miles to school and work, because I cannot afford a car or the $3+ per gallon in gas. I attend a local college and pay for it with my own money. Yet, besides the income taxes and sales taxes I pay I must pay this "rent" by the name of property tax. Tell me, if you think it is not rent. What will happen if I do not pay it? So, if someone has the power to take my land away from me then whose land is it really? If this is the case, is there anything that the government can not justify taking away from me? So can I own anything? Are we truely a society based upon consumerism or are we a society based upon mob rule?

- KitNyx

 

[dixonmassey]

Thank you. I enjoyed that poem. Very true.

I agree that our government the way it is running today is not the way our nations builders intended.

Founding fathers intended a nation ruled by "elite". Elite elected by the relatively small propertied class. "Domination of the few under an apparent liberty of many". Those are a founding father's words. Sure, times are changing, election rights were broadened greatly for the past 200 years. However, the cornerstone of the design remained the same: "The domination of the few under an apparent liberty of many". The goal is just reached by different means than 200 years ago. Thus, everything is going according to the PLAN.

I can not even own land...

Yes, you can. You can (in some localities, at least) pay property taxes upfront for many years ahead . Provided, you'll not build fancy things, increasing its value, you'll get more solid illusion of ownership. BTW, you own land not because it's your God or whomever given right of a free human, who've paid N thousand $ for it. You own land because state machinery protects your rights of ownership, which you've bought for N thousands $, against foreign invadors and, what is more important, against domestic folks who could wish to take your land against your will. One need to pay continuously for that kind of protection. If Jesus itself, for example, has cut you a plot I would understand your indignation. Otherwise, it's somewhat capricious.

 

[KitNyx]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "

No, I do not argee with you about the intentions of American founding father's as a whole. See above in their own words as well.

Capricious? How? So if I pay taxes years ahead that means I do not have to pay them? I am confused about the logic or point of your arguement. I was expressing the fact that all that we believe we own is but rented. I do not pay my property taxes, fine remove my access to paved roads, keep my none existant children out of public school, etc. You do not protect my right to keep my land then you can give back my income taxes and sales taxes. Get off what is mine. It is not yours to take away from me, or back to my point, is it?

- KitNyx

 

[Baron Max]

....I must pay this "rent" by the name of property tax. Tell me, if you think it is not rent.

It's not rent, it's taxes. Why are you making any distinction between sales tax and property tax? With your line of reasoning, ye're also "renting" any and all of the goods you purchase ...is that right?

I believe it is my job to pay for those services I use.

That's what taxes are for ...yet ye're complaining about paying property tax, but not sales/goods tax. Why?

I believe it should be my right to do as I please as long as I do not infringe upon others right to do likewise.

Well, that ain't the way others might see it. You live in a society, and that society has made certain provisions to protect the rights of others from your actions. You, as a member of that society, should obey those rules or find another society or LEGALLY change that society. It seems to me that ye're doing none of those things ...you're only complaining on an Internet forum which will do you no good.

Nothing is perfect in life and few people can live any way they wish. You just need to learn to live with that because there are other people involved with whom you must live.

Baron Max

 

[KitNyx]

ACTUALLY I am doing those things. I have been active in the Libertarian Party for several years. I am the President of Libertarian Chapter at the school I attend.

I am expressing my dissent. This is the ultimate expression of Americanism. Perhaps, I should just shut my mouth and go with the status quo. Is this what you believe I should do?

There is a HUGE difference between paying a one time sales tax and continual rent. When I bought my house I DID pay the sales tax, yet I continue to be forced to pay rent on MY land.

Tell me Baron Max, if I required you to pay me $500 per month for your property would you see it as rent? So what if I told you it was not rent but it was your duty as an American to pay me this in the name of taxes. You would say ^&$* you, right? So how about if I told you that you will pay me this money or a group of armed persons that I have hired will come take your property and give it to someone who will pay me my money...would you feel as if this was your property to begin with?

I agree with sales tax and luxury tax and I see logic in income tax (not that I agree with it). But, property tax is not legal. You cannot charge me to live on land that I own without my consent, and I do not consent to pay for services I do not use.

- KitNyx

 

[hypewaders]

"[The US Govt] cannot charge me to live on land that I own without my consent, and I do not consent to pay for services I do not use."

Of course they can. Refuse, and they will attempt to put you into prison for several years. If necessary, they will injure or kill you and any accomplices if you resist arrest.

 

[KitNyx]

My point exactly...So, do I REALLY own the land of do I just rent it from them?

How would the situation be any different if it was someone else's land and I refused to pay my rent?

- KitNyx

 

[Clockwood]

If it was somebody else's land, they would just kick you out after two weeks notice. As far as I know, the US doesn't exile you for tax evasion. Not quite. As far as I am conscerned, if you don't obey the laws of the land, the country has the right to declare war on you personally.

 

[KitNyx]

As far as I am concerned, between the war on terror and the war on drugs the country already has.

- KitNyx

 

[Clockwood]

So... you sell illegal drugs and plot the violent overthrow of the United States federal government? I can't say I blame the government then.