Aboriginal child abuse and the NT Intervention

[Bells]

Where I come from, self determination means the right of nations to freely choose their own sovereignty. I did not realise Australians defined the self determination of aboriginals as "what the elder said"

Where you come from means squat. You are irrelavent. What self determination in your country and culture is and means is not relevant to other countries and cultures who have different belief and cultural systems to those that exist in your country.

You are not an Aboriginal and you do not understand the role or what an "Elder" actually is in each aboriginal community and what their positions happen to be in their respective communities. Applying your standard to self determination and demanding it applies to another culture is exactly what you have been accusing the previous Australian Government of doing.

How can I put this.. Aboriginal Elders are the custodians of knowledge and and traditional expression for their communities. What they say basically goes as far as their community is concerned. Read the report and you'll see what they say about Elders in communities and their roles in their communities.

 

[S.A.M.]

How can I put this.. Aboriginal Elders are the custodians of knowledge and and traditional expression for their communities. What they say basically goes as far as their community is concerned. Read the report and you'll see what they say about Elders in communities and their roles in their communities.

Then lets speak no more about being concerned for the aboriginals. The way I see it, its just genocide in progress.

 

[Bells]

Then lets speak no more about being concerned for the aboriginals. The way I see it, its just genocide in progress.

So because the local Aboriginal Elders request or want falls outside of what you think they should request or want or betrays your personal beliefs regarding self determination, you accuse them of genocide?

Are you suggesting that local community leaders don't know better about what is needed for their local community and people?

And by the way, Aboriginal always spelt with a capital "A".

 

[S.A.M.]

Tell me, what do these aboriginal elders have to say about the loss of jobs, the increase in substance abuse, the increased malnutrition of the children? I assume they get some feedback?

And by the way, Aboriginal always spelt with a capital "A".

Not when its used as an adjective.

ab·o·rig·i·nal
   /ˌæbəˈrɪdʒənl/ Show Spelled[ab-uh-rij-uh-nl] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or typical of aborigines: aboriginal customs.
2.
original or earliest known; native; indigenous: the aboriginal people of Tahiti.

 

[Gustav]

Tell me, what do these aboriginal elders have to say ...........

elders on parade



the transcript



a book



Loss of Rights - The despair of the aboriginal communities in the nt

 

[Gustav]

i suppose the next chapter will pit my abos vs your abos
ja
authenticity and whatnot

/snicker

 

[S.A.M.]

i suppose the next chapter will pit my abos vs your abos
ja
authenticity and whatnot

/snicker

Suicide by intervention?

Through the NT intervention, the federal government took control of Aboriginal township land through five-year leases. This enabled the NT government to abolish Aboriginal community councils and set up nine “mega-shire” councils. All assets of the community councils were seized and handed to these new shires...

Cutting the CDEP programs without creating real jobs has meant many communities are not getting basic work done, like rubbish collection, school pick-ups or sewerage maintenance. Meanwhile, outside contractors are being brought into communities by the mega-shires to do work that should be employing people in the Aboriginal communities...

According to the Alice Springs Intervention Rollback Group, in the community of Ampilatwatja there are cases of people working 25-40 hour weeks; that’s $4-11 an hour plus rations. Young people are being told that there is no paid work for them within the shire and that if they want wages, they will have to leave the community...

http://directaction.org.au/issue28/aboriginal_communities_fight_return_to_ration_days

 

[(Q)]

What is the consensus in Australia about using the army to combat child abuse in aboriginal communities? Is it time to remove these children and assimilate them into Australian society rather than leave them to be abused? Should the aboriginals be put under military rule so as to save the children?

What do you think?

I can't imagine how difficult it must be to complain about your neighbors when the stench of your own backyard fills ones nostrils with putridity.

 

[S.A.M.]

I can't imagine how difficult it must be to complain about your neighbors when the stench of your own backyard fills ones nostrils with putridity.

Woah! How was the vacation?

At first glance it appears that you are supporting my OP. But since that is clearly a mistaken assumption all I can say is "Thanks!"

 

[(Q)]

Woah! How was the vacation?

At first glance it appears that you are supporting my OP. But since that is clearly a mistaken assumption all I can say is "Thanks!"

My pleasure. So, when will you begin cleaning up your backyard?

 

[Asguard]

BTW Sam, you ask what out of this non Aboriginals are subject to. Truancy is a crime in the states, if you don't send your kids to school you can be fined or jailed, if the police find a child not at school during school hours they can be detained and returned to school by force if nesasery. If it keeps happerning DOCS will get involved and in extreem cases the child can be removed. Now Aborigional elders felt that finantial cohersion was better than criminal in this case and so the government gave them what they wanted. It was also made avilable to the state DOCS for all families as another weapon that they can use

 

[Bells]

Tell me, what do these aboriginal elders have to say about the loss of jobs, the increase in substance abuse, the increased malnutrition of the children? I assume they get some feedback?

It's always Aboriginal and Elders, no matter what. You know, out of respect for a people. Since you're being all caring and supportive, by now denigrating their culture and society because it doesn't fit into your ideals of what self determination should be.

What do you think they have to say about it? They are trying to combat it in their respective communities. And some felt stronger Governmental intervention was necessary for their particular community. The report makes that clear, that some Elders brought up greater police presence, tying welfare with truancy, check up's for children to see if they had been abused or not, some even requested not providing any contraception to teenagers as they are trying to enforce no sex before marriage to try to lower the rate of teenage pregnancies. I believe that particular one was not agreed to.

Learn about what an Elder is in an Aboriginal community and you'll understand how that report was written and how and why their recommendations, which you earlier applauded, came about. Direct quotes from Elders in communities around the Northern Territory and what they wanted for their communities pepper the report itself. Again, that should have been obvious to you and your lap dog had either of you read it.

Instead you and Gustav continue to belittle the role of Elders and call them "Abos", to suit your own little agenda. You should both be ashamed of yourself. You demand self determination if it fits your definition of self determination. You attempt to apply it from an Indian perspective, ignoring how Aboriginal communities are governed and the role of Elders in each and every community and family.

You also disregard that Australians who understand and know the cohesive nature of Aboriginal communities have been trying to tell you repeatedly in this thread. Everyone knows it was heavy handed and few people agreed with it. But some did request that level of intervention and the Government failed by applying it widely, instead of applying it invidually to each community as per their request. Read the actual report, speak to some Elders and then get back to us.

 

[Brian Foley]

What do you think?

What do I think:

Northern Territory Government Australia

Inquiry into the Protection of Aboriginal Children from Sexual Abuse

Important points made by the Inquiry included:

'The combined effects of poor health, alcohol and drug abuse, unemployment, gambling, pornography, poor education and housing, and a general loss of identity and control have contributed to violence and to sexual abuse in many forms.'

Improvements in health and social services are desperately needed.

Australia’s government national emergency package plan for Aborigines includes not a single cent for health care, education, housing or social services. It will get worse.

 

[Bells]

Pretty much.

I was waiting to see what would come out of the election with all the noises being made about improved Indigenous health care and education and housing. Nothing as yet. The issue was reduced to election talking points.

There is a lack of access and lack of initiative to get health care professionals to move to these far outback areas, and thus, those communities suffer with an increased child mortality rate, a 17 year gap in life expectancy between Indigenous Australians and non-Indigenous Australians.

Of course it will get worse.

What the Government should have done is provide more funding to organisations like the Nganampa Health Council - who strive to provide health care to their area. They should provide the funding required to encourage more such Councils in all Aboriginal communities in the far outback. Educate and train members of the community to work and put back into the community through such councils. It would be an ideal way to combat some of the health and mental health issues, as well as substance abuse in communities and some, like in Nganampa, are trained in sexual health and providing care and counselling in sexual abuse cases. The Central Australian Aboriginal Congress also provides a similar service in the Alice Springs area. Communities should be funded directly, instead of having a large body in charge of supposedly funding the whole country - who then only fund their own communities and ignored everyone else, as we saw in the past.

The same with education. Force incentives to parents to make sure their children are in school. Some communities, like the CAAC requested linking school attendance with welfare payments. In the rest of Australia, parents can be held criminally liable if they do not send their children to school and yes, their welfare payments can be cancelled. The CAAC requested a similar incentive in their community and it was applied all round. But other communities commented on Elders running bus runs, going to each house and forcing the children into the buses to go to school. What the Government should have done is cater to each community individually instead of applying it as a blanket across the State.

The report also encourages employing more Indigenous police officers and staff from each community and basing them in the community itself. This did not happen in all communities. The Howard system was to go in, stomp and then leave. It did not and was never intended for long term care and support, which was what was needed.

 

[S.A.M.]

BTW Sam, you ask what out of this non Aboriginals are subject to. Truancy is a crime in the states, if you don't send your kids to school you can be fined or jailed, if the police find a child not at school during school hours they can be detained and returned to school by force if nesasery. If it keeps happerning DOCS will get involved and in extreem cases the child can be removed. Now Aborigional elders felt that finantial cohersion was better than criminal in this case and so the government gave them what they wanted. It was also made avilable to the state DOCS for all families as another weapon that they can use

Ah but do the rules apply even where the people haven't broken any laws?

For example:

Through the NT intervention, the federal government took control of Aboriginal township land through five-year leases. This enabled the NT government to abolish Aboriginal community councils and set up nine “mega-shire” councils. All assets of the community councils were seized and handed to these new shires.

http://directaction.org.au/issue28/aboriginal_communities_fight_return_to_ration_days

Is everyone in this community an alcoholic and a pedophile?

It's always Aboriginal and Elders, no matter what. You know, out of respect for a people. Since you're being all caring and supportive, by now denigrating their culture and society because it doesn't fit into your ideals of what self determination should be.

I'm using standard English language. And I'm not obliged to respect inefficiency or exploitation regardless of what guise it comes under.

What do you think they have to say about it? They are trying to combat it in their respective communities. And some felt stronger Governmental intervention was necessary for their particular community.

So they are unwilling to take responsibility for their own communities. Were the welfare checks to these aboriginal elders also reduced? Or was it only the community which suffered?

The report makes that clear, that some Elders brought up greater police presence, tying welfare with truancy, check up's for children to see if they had been abused or not, some even requested not providing any contraception to teenagers as they are trying to enforce no sex before marriage to try to lower the rate of teenage pregnancies. I believe that particular one was not agreed to.

So inspite of the rampant child abuse they do not wish to impart sex education to their children. Thats their prerogative and one which they can enforce when they undertake the education, however, foreign social workers are not required to be bound by local politicians when it comes to education. In India, social workers are not even bound by our own politicians when it comes to education. How many of these elders are educated and trained to make informed decisions about aboriginal health? What do aboriginal doctors and social workers have to say in this matter?

Learn about what an Elder is in an Aboriginal community and you'll understand how that report was written and how and why their recommendations, which you earlier applauded, came about. Direct quotes from Elders in communities around the Northern Territory and what they wanted for their communities pepper the report itself. Again, that should have been obvious to you and your lap dog had either of you read it.

I hope you are kidding me. Its the aboriginals who have to respect their elders. Not me. I'm certainly not obliged to pander to these elders anymore than I am obligated to bow to the Queen of England. Do you understand that non-interference in other societies does not mean you have to follow their laws in your own? Australians on this board do not seem to comprehend that if you do not support killing people you disapprove of, it does not imply that you support their choices.

Instead you and Gustav continue to belittle the role of Elders and call them "Abos", to suit your own little agenda. You should both be ashamed of yourself. You demand self determination if it fits your definition of self determination. You attempt to apply it from an Indian perspective, ignoring how Aboriginal communities are governed and the role of Elders in each and every community and family.

It seems to me the role of the elders in aboriginal society is that the buck does not stop here. If, as you say, they advocate the use of Australian military and police and stripping off the hard won land rights of aboriginals and, inspite of a significant failure of the policies continue to avoid taking responsibility for their own communities, what exactly is it that I am supposed to admire about them? And yes, I am applying the Indian perspective. Dalit leaders exploit the Dalit community the same way as the high caste people did. Are we supposed to pretend its okay because they are Dalit leaders?

You also disregard that Australians who understand and know the cohesive nature of Aboriginal communities have been trying to tell you repeatedly in this thread.Everyone knows it was heavy handed and few people agreed with it. But some did request that level of intervention and the Government failed by applying it widely, instead of applying it invidually to each community as per their request. Read the actual report, speak to some Elders and then get back to us.

Being the moral police is a difficult job, especially when the people you police have no self determination. The results of the NT intervention make it clear that this is just continued genocide and that it will continue until even the 2% of aboriginal population does not exist any more.

 

[Asguard]

As a general principal that's exactly what happens. For instance increases in airport security applied to everyone, not.just the terrorists. Another example is the suggestion for mandatory alcohol interlocks in all cars whether someone has a history of drink driving or not. Another example is manditory bag searches when leaving shops whether the staff think your stealing or not. There are hundreds of other examples of proventive measures which are applied to everyone or sections of populations. Do I agree with all of them? No I don't, I don't agree with different rules for the building unions which cut into free association, I don't agree with manditory detention, and I don't agree with a lot of the intervention but the fact that the army was used isnt anymore of a problem than the fact they were used in cyclone Lary, the Queensland floods or the Vic bushfires. After all, why pay for private builders to build houses when you have builders on staff sitting around bases doing nothing. What stupitity, thank God your not in charge of our taxes. We would be paying twice as much or more to provide the same services.

 

[Asguard]

BTW sex education shouls not be parents choice anymore than science or English should be. That's WHY we have a manditory ciriculum.

 

[S.A.M.]

As a general principal that's exactly what happens. For instance increases in airport security applied to everyone, not.just the terrorists. Another example is the suggestion for mandatory alcohol interlocks in all cars whether someone has a history of drink driving or not. Another example is manditory bag searches when leaving shops whether the staff think your stealing or not. There are hundreds of other examples of proventive measures which are applied to everyone or sections of populations. Do I agree with all of them? No I don't, I don't agree with different rules for the building unions which cut into free association, I don't agree with manditory detention, and I don't agree with a lot of the intervention but the fact that the army was used isnt anymore of a problem than the fact they were used in cyclone Lary, the Queensland floods or the Vic bushfires. After all, why pay for private builders to build houses when you have builders on staff sitting around bases doing nothing. What stupitity, thank God your not in charge of our taxes. We would be paying twice as much or more to provide the same services.

So most aboriginals losing their jobs because some of them are pedophiles is how Australians believe this problem should be tackled? How many white Australians lost their jobs in this? Or is racism the new black?

What stupitity, thank God your not in charge of our taxes. We would be paying twice as much or more to provide the same services.

Well clearly if it saves you money, lets use the army to keep the aboriginals in line.

 

[Asguard]

Racism? Coming from an Indian I find that amusing. The Indian media would have to be only second to fox.news when it comes to racism. Look at the racial insults hurled at Australia even after it was proven that one Indian student was killed by another Indian and the other set himself on fire while trying to comit insurance fraud. Before you talk about racism you should look at your own culture

 

[S.A.M.]

Racism? Coming from an Indian I find that amusing. The Indian media would have to be only second to fox.news when it comes to racism. Look at the racial insults hurled at Australia even after it was proven that one Indian student was killed by another Indian and the other set himself on fire while trying to comit insurance fraud. Before you talk about racism you should look at your own culture

Do I take that to mean that not a single white Australian lost their job when the Australians took over the aboriginal community at the invitation of the aboriginal government?

You can start a new thread on racism in India and we can look at my culture there.