A Request Directed to Sciforums' "Atheists"

[Kittamaru]

You must live in the Southeast or in a rural community, where witnessing door to door and a plethora of various flavors of Christian TV shows are not unusual. Have not had to deal with that for several years now or maybe I am just immune to it.:shrug:

Actually, just this Easter here in PA, I was at Easter Lunch with my wife's side of the family... just as we were sitting down to eat, two well-dressed men came up to the door, peeking in the window as they did so, and knocked. My mother in law answered the door (with me behind her just in case) and they proceeded to ask if we would be interested in hearing "of the importance of the Bible" and some other such prepared speech... we told them to, as politely as we could, take a hike, in large part because they could see we were just sitting down to eat (I watched the one all but press his nose up against the window as he looked in at us) and also because they started the spiel with a lie (they claimed our neighbor sent them over to us... our neighbors, nice people, hate door-to-door anything more than most people I know and actually have a standing pact with us NOT to send door-to-door people to each others houses)

 

[Kittamaru]

It's essentially just allegory.

In essence, I think that much of the bible should be taken as such; after all, it was written a long, LONG time ago when there were a completely different set of social norms and issues at work.

 

[GeoffP]

In essence, I think that much of the bible should be taken as such; after all, it was written a long, LONG time ago when there were a completely different set of social norms and issues at work.

Actually, wasn't it also used as a tacit approval of slavery? As in "why was it in the book then"? I'm not sure if I spoke too soon here.

 

[Kittamaru]

Actually, wasn't it also used as a tacit approval of slavery? As in "why was it in the book then"? I'm not sure if I spoke too soon here.

That I am not sure of to be honest. I'll have to look into that.

 

[Trooper]

Jung teaches us that religion is a collection of archetypes: instinctive beliefs passed down in our DNA and installed in our neurons--although Jung didn't use such language since genetics was not yet a mature science. Archetypal beliefs (rituals, legends and visual images that recur in nearly every culture and nearly every era) feel more true than any beliefs we acquire subsequently by learning and reasoning--because they came first!

So when a person says that he "knows" some preposterous pseudo-fact regarding an invisible, illogical supernatural universe and fantastic creatures who live there, whose existence is supported by exactly zero evidence, you can regard it as a programming error. Unfortunately it's damnably difficult to correct.

Of course the origin of most instinctive beliefs is obvious. For example, any animal who doesn't instinctively run away from a larger animal with both eyes in front of its face (i.e., a predator) won't live long enough to reproduce so his genes will be lost. Obviously religion doesn't fall into that category. Nonetheless, our chromosomes are full of "junk DNA" and there's no better way to describe the DNA that causes (most of) us to believe in the supernatural. Our species has passed through at least two genetic bottlenecks, Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosome Adam, giving a free ride to DNA that serves no purpose--or in this case is actually detrimental, since many of the wars between human tribes have been fought over religion.

I don’t think it has anything to do with DNA, Fraggle. It’s passed down by word of mouth. In that sense, I agree with you, that it is a programming error. And we've talked about Jung before. He’s outdated, Fraggle. His so-called synchronicity is basically apophenia.

[video=youtube_share;WJ25Ai__FYU]http://youtu.be/WJ25Ai__FYU[/video]

Do you think he was justified in saying that he knew that God existed because his concept of God was simply his experiences, “what has been believed always, everywhere, and by all”? He assumed his experiences, which caused him to believe were the cause of everyone's belief. I think he actually believed this was God. I don’t think that he was saying that religion was a byproduct that arose in our evolutionary past, do you? I think he was more mystical than that. He felt that what happens to a person is characteristic of him and according to some predestined design.

C.G. Jung - death is not the end

Just because we can reflect on the past and the future doesn't mean that we transcend space and time. The "I" ends with death.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

I have never gotten an acceptable reason for why that gun wouldn't go off while pressed against my head... it had never, not once in the time our family has owned it, misfired or refused to fire. It was meticulously cleaned and maintained and, as I said, as soon as I pointed it down range it fired fine.

*shrugs* Make of it what you will... but yeah, I have my reasons for believing someone was watching over me. It wasn't long after that that I started to pull myself out of that depression... and less than 3 years later I was reintroduced to the woman who would eventually become my wife. It's been almost five years now, and come hell or high water she has stuck by me and put up with me... something I truly never thought anyone would willingly do.

Depression can be devistatin... as it was to my sister (non-religious/normaly the life of the party) who had jus as soom spend the day starin at the floor an sleepin.!!!
Psychiatric help an pills had little effect... but after 3 years she jus got better an had a interest in livin agan.!!!

Im glad thangs are goin good for you an you'rs... an you say "Make of it what you will"... but im qurious what you realy make of it... ie... woud you recomend that you'r "gun story" be told to other people who have God beliefs an are depressed/suicidal.???

 

[Kittamaru]

Depression can be devistatin... as it was to my sister (non-religious/normaly the life of the party) who had jus as soom spend the day starin at the floor an sleepin.!!!
Psychiatric help an pills had little effect... but after 3 years she jus got better an had a interest in livin agan.!!!

Im glad thangs are goin good for you an you'rs... an you say "Make of it what you will"... but im qurious what you realy make of it... ie... woud you recomend that you'r "gun story" be told to other people who have God beliefs an are depressed/suicidal.???

TO be honest, I dont' know if I would... it was the wake up call I needed in the end; it made me stop looking at my own situation and start looking outwards at others, which made me realize that, overall, I had it pretty good. A roof over my head, clean water to drink, food to eat, I was literate, electricity and all sorts of nice little "wants" that I could fulfill... it was enough to let logic overcome the emotion. Would that work for others... possibly, I dunno.

 

[Magical Realist]

You must live in the Southeast or in a rural community, where witnessing door to door and a plethora of various flavors of Christian TV shows are not unusual. Have not had to deal with that for several years now or maybe I am just immune to it.:shrug:

Actually I live in super liberal Portland Oregon. Somehow evangelicals have set up roost here too. Maybe they thrive on the rich atmosphere of diversity and tolerance here, where many different ideologies and lifestyles are allowed to coexist peacefully. Ofcourse for them that's not enough. They have to Jesusify all of us to be truly satisfied.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

They have to Jesusify all of us to be truly satisfied.

At 6 i ask dad if Santa was real an he just smiled... oK... i got it... it was all a big joke... but the presents was real so i got over it

Here in Indiana you cant escape Jesus wit all the Jesus-fish an Jesus-license-plates on cars... LOL... but unlike Santa... even into adulthood... people keep actin like "Jesus-stuff" is real

I guess Jesus is just Santa for adults wantin adult gifts :shrug:

 

[Magical Realist]

At 6 i ask dad if Santa was real an he just smiled... oK... i got it... it was all a big joke... but the presents was real so i got over it

Here in Indiana you cant escape Jesus wit all the Jesus-fish an Jesus-license-plates on cars... LOL... but unlike Santa... even into adulthood... people keep actin like "Jesus-stuff" is real

I guess Jesus is just Santa for adults wantin adult gifts :shrug:

That gift being a worldwide theocracy where God himself reigns on earth and all non-Christians have been thrown into the lake of fire to burn forever. It's a comforting vision for them for some reason. Sort of like Brave New World on steroids. Or the Borg:

 

[Kittamaru]

Again, the whole "everyone who does not believe will perish in holy fire" thing is something a lot of modern Christians have realized isn't the intended implication...

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Im glad thangs are goin good for you an you'rs... an you say "Make of it what you will"... but im qurious what you realy make of it... ie... woud you recomend that you'r "gun story" be told to other people who have God beliefs an are depressed/suicidal.???

TO be honest, I dont' know if I would... it was the wake up call I needed in the end; it made me stop looking at my own situation and start looking outwards at others, which made me realize that, overall, I had it pretty good. A roof over my head, clean water to drink, food to eat, I was literate, electricity and all sorts of nice little "wants" that I could fulfill... it was enough to let logic overcome the emotion. Would that work for others... possibly, I dunno.

The answr is obvous for a rational thankin person... so as a public service i say NO... dont anybody ever put a gun to you'r head thankin "Jesus" will keep the gun from shootin... ie... 99(?)% of the time the result will be horrific... whether you'r a Bible-believer or not.!!!

 

[Magical Realist]

Again, the whole "everyone who does not believe will perish in holy fire" thing is something a lot of modern Christians have realized isn't the intended implication...

It's in the Bible. Are you saying there are Christians out there who do not accept the Bible as God's Word? How do they know what to believe in then?

 

[elte]

The answr is obvous for a rational thankin person... so as a public service i say NO... dont anybody ever put a gun to you'r head thankin "Jesus" will keep the gun from shootin... ie... 99(?)% of the time the result will be horrific... whether you'r a Bible-believer or not.!!!

The explanation that comes to me is that throwing it on the floor got what was stuck unstuck. I'm glad it was stuck at the critical moment because Kittamaru seems too nice to not be around!

 

[Kittamaru]

It's in the Bible. Are you saying there are Christians out there who do not accept the Bible as God's Word? How do they know what to believe in then?

As I've already said, the Bible isn't something we can just take verbatim anymore. While the overall message is one that still applies, it is none the less a book written in a vastly different time in human history. It needs to be regarded as either history or allegory; to take it entirely at face value would be to embrace... well, nothing short of absolute anarchy and madness. After all, even though it is the "word of God", it was still written by very mortal, and all too fallible, men.

The explanation that comes to me is that throwing it on the floor got what was stuck unstuck. I'm glad it was stuck at the critical moment because Kittamaru seems too nice to not be around!

I dont' know what could have been stuck though... the hammer wasn't (as I know well from the fact I had cocked it back for the first attempt), the trigger and action was smooth as always, and the cylinder rotated as expected. It's a revolver... there really isn't all that much that could get stuck or jammed.

 

[Trooper]

Make of it what you will... but yeah, I have my reasons for believing someone was watching over me.

The answer is obvious for a rational thinking person... so as a public service I say NO... don't anybody ever put a gun to you'r head thinking "Jesus" will keep the gun from shooting... ie... 99(?)% of the time the result will be horrific... whether you'r a Bible-believer or not.!!!

Thanks, Clueluss.

For the countless families that have lost loved ones, it's like a slap in the face. No one was watching out for them.
The all time worst remark at a funeral is that God must have needed them. :facepalm:

 

[elte]

My explanation for religion is that it helped people take risks like spearing mastadons and generally deal with not knowing what caused things to happen in the world.

 

[Kittamaru]

My explanation for religion is that it helped people take risks like spearing mastadons and generally deal with not knowing what caused things to happen in the world.

And we know that this is how a lot of religious stuff came about, such as worship of the Sun God and the blessings of the Harvest, et al.

 

[Magical Realist]

As I've already said, the Bible isn't something we can just take verbatim anymore. While the overall message is one that still applies, it is none the less a book written in a vastly different time in human history. It needs to be regarded as either history or allegory; to take it entirely at face value would be to embrace... well, nothing short of absolute anarchy and madness. After all, even though it is the "word of God", it was still written by very mortal, and all too fallible, men.

I know of few Christians who don't believe in a fiery fate for nonbelievers. Jesus believed in it and he's the great example isn't he? Allegorizing away the parts of the Bible you don't agree with is intellectually dishonest. It is and remains for most Christians God's revealed word on salvation and the fate of mankind.

 

[Kittamaru]

I know of few Christians who don't believe in a fiery fate for nonbelievers. Jesus believed in it and he's the great example isn't he? Allegorizing away the parts of the Bible you don't agree with is intellectually dishonest. It is and remains for most Christians God's revealed word on salvation and the fate of mankind.

*shrugs* I cannot sway you in this, that much is obvious... but as I said, there is a large swath of the Christian faith that is coming to see that WE are not to be judging others in Gods stead... we are merely to make the offer, be respectful, and love one another.