A race horse

[iceaura]

Nope not at all. Correlation is not causation.

Something to keep in mind when postulating a causal universe derived from the presupposition of an ordering deity.

The Japanese state with the Nara warriors was a Buddhist one.

It wasn't fascist, though. And the fascist state under Hirohito was not Buddhist. We have a negative correlation, in Japan.

Again, no clue. Just the actions of Buddhist monks throughout history.

More examples of the dangers of allying religious authority with political and military and economic power. A common preliminary to regrettable events, in human history and in modern times.

 

[S.A.M.]

Something to keep in mind when postulating a causal universe derived from the presupposition of an ordering deity.

Huh?

It wasn't fascist, though. And the fascist state under Hirohito was not Buddhist. We have a negative correlation, in Japan.

The monk-controlled state was undeniably fascist. Their effect on the population was tremendous.

More examples of the dangers of allying religious authority with political and military and economic power. A common preliminary to regrettable events, in human history and in modern times.

Yet another reason I prefer Islam.

 

[Gustav]

Again, no clue. Just the actions of Buddhist monks throughout history.

yes i understand that
are these actions a logical consequence of following the buddhist scriptures?

 

[Gustav]

Yet another reason I prefer Islam.

is someone trying to convert you to another religion?

 

[S.A.M.]

is someone trying to convert you to another religion?

I don't think so?

yes i understand that
are these actions a logical consequence of following the buddhist scriptures?

I think they are a logical consequence of the monk-laity divide, imbuing the monk with "sacredness" and the laity with the responsibility to sustain it.

 

[Gustav]

Yet another reason I prefer Islam.

The emergence of violent Muslim vigilante groups employing a jihadist discourse and mobilizing followers for jihad in regions where there have been inter-religious conflicts, such as the Moluccas or the Poso district in Central Sulawesi, is one of the most conspicuous new phenomena in contemporary Indonesian Islam. During the twenty-month presidency of Abdurrahman Wahid, such groups often gained control of the streets, and the army and police appeared unable, or unwilling, to contain them. Against the president’s express orders, groups of jihad fighters could leave the island of Java for the Moluccas without being checked by police or army; upon arrival in the Moluccas they were even given modern weapons by certain military officers sympathetic to their cause.


indeed

 

[Gustav]

I think they are a logical consequence of the monk-laity divide, imbuing the monk with "sacredness" and the laity with the responsibility to sustain it.

yes
sounds decent
yet.....

Thats been how the monks establsih their feudal systems. In Tibet, it led to landed slavery with 90% of the people living hand to mouth under the exotic silk clad "monks" and their administration.

do you still hold this to be the case? cite some history please. tibet prior to the advent of buddhism. throw some factoids into your alleged correlation

 

[iceaura]

The monk-controlled state was undeniably fascist.

Well, I'm denying it. Every description I've found is of a feudal theocracy, right down to inherited estates and communal organization of serfs. Not a corporation in sight, or any analogue.

More examples of the dangers of allying religious authority with political and military and economic power. A common preliminary to regrettable events, in human history and in modern times.
”
Yet another reason I prefer Islam.

And others fear it - from Sharia law to the organization of militias by mosque.

 

[S.A.M.]

Well, I'm denying it. Every description I've found is of a feudal theocracy, right down to inherited estates and communal organization of serfs. Not a corporation in sight, or any analogue.

The monks were the corporation, the political ideology was their Buddhism based nationalism which controlled everything from social customs to location of the Shinto temples to political hierarchy. Recall that Buddhism was the ideology of the nobles and monks, not of the lay people at the time.

And others fear it - from Sharia law to the organization of militias by mosque.

Sharia law is law by consensus and political opinions of individuals in charge of maintaining a mosque are rarely translated to political action on their behalf.

 

[Gustav]

from the failure thread........

Why should we consider other factors when no one seems to consider any factor besides religion when it comes to islam for example?

Its to do with the Western attitude I've found. They are very into mystical things. So they redefine Buddhism and portray it as something mysterious and mystical, and dont focus on the countries that are Buddhist and carry out atrocities. But if Muslim countries do that, somehow all Muslims and Islam get blamed for that.

hmmm
sam
a comparison of violence and hatred in islamic and buddhist scriptures?
you do buddhism, i do islam
game?

a correlation b/w scripture and evinced actions

 

[iceaura]

The monks were the corporation

? Now you are just being silly. The corporation?

You do realize that "feudal" and "fascist" name two quite different economic and political systems, right?

Sharia law is law by consensus and political opinions of individuals in charge of maintaining a mosque are rarely translated to political action on their behalf.

SAM, we have mosques fielding their own armies, military forces loyal to religious leaders (Sadr, et al) who are even commanding them in some cases, and the whole setup devoted to establishing religious law as the law of the land, enforced by power. There is hardly a closer possible alliance of political power with religious authority.

The history of such alliances should be warning enough.

 

[Michael]

Believing someone is divinely ordained influences how much they direct your actions and leaves you open to exploitation by them. Its one of the easiest ways to destroy a religion.

:bugeye:
Ah hellooooo - can anyone say MO HA MED

How in the world a horse can manage to blinker itself is beyond me!

 

[Gustav]

.....The history of such alliances should be warning enough.

yes but those are perversions of islam. the shia are an obscure militant cult that perverted the teachings of moh.

/snicker

 

[S.A.M.]

? Now you are just being silly. The corporation?

You do realize that "feudal" and "fascist" name two quite different economic and political systems, right?
SAM, we have mosques fielding their own armies, military forces loyal to religious leaders (Sadr, et al) who are even commanding them in some cases, and the whole setup devoted to establishing religious law as the law of the land, enforced by power. There is hardly a closer possible alliance of political power with religious authority.

The history of such alliances should be warning enough.

??? under occupation, everyone is an insurgent, even the religious. Gandhi sang bhajans to motivate the people. Tilak started the Ganpati visarjan as a unifier. Thats hardly the same as Buddhist monks holding kings ransom for gold under threat of war. Comparing Muqtada al Sadr to them is ridiculous. Everyone knows the Iraqi "government" is a western collaborative effort. Why would the Iraqis support those who aid and abet the occupation?

from the failure thread........

hmmm
sam
a comparison of violence and hatred in islamic and buddhist scriptures?
you do buddhism, i do islam
game?

a correlation b/w scripture and evinced actions

Compare away. I look at the way the institution is structured.

The monk-laity divide is permanent in Buddhism. It will always be a problem.

 

[Gustav]

The monk-laity divide is permanent in Buddhism. It will always be a problem.

in that case you might as well be talking about any entrenched interests. for instance the police vs the public it serves, politicians/lobbies vs the electorate

i on the other hand, prefer to look at scripture and see exactly what is alleged to be condoned

/snigger

 

[S.A.M.]

in that case you might as well be talking about any entrenched interests. for instance the police vs the public it serves, politicians/lobbies vs the electorate

i on the other hand, prefer to look at scripture and see exactly what is alleged to be condoned

/snigger

What does the scripture say about the difference between monk and laity? What is the role of each? Why do you need the distinction?

 

[Gustav]

as far as i am concerned, the distinctions are a political or perhaps practical endeavor and not a spiritual one.

practical in the sense that there obviously has to be some that can instruct and inform the masses about scripture and it appears that the monkhood has appropriated this role for themselves

as for the need, is it not obvious? the monks see this as a perfect opportunity to bugger the little boys that come into their temples

 

[S.A.M.]

The scriptures don't say anything?

 

[Gustav]

perhaps this and this

The Pali version of the Patimokkha, the code of conduct that applies to Buddhist monastics, contains 227 major rules for bhikkhus and 311 major rules for bhikkhunis. The Vibhanga section(s) of Vinaya Pitaka constitute(s) a commentary on these rules, giving detailed explanations of them along with the origin stories for each rule. The Khandhaka/Skandhaka sections give numerous supplementary rules grouped by subject, again with origin stories. The Buddha called his teaching the "Dhamma-Vinaya", emphasizing both the philosophical teachings of Buddhism as well as the training in virtue that embodies that philosophy.

In the collected Chinese editions of the Scriptures the Vinaya pitaka has a broader sense, including all four Chinese vinayas listed above, parts of others, non-canonical vinaya literature, lay vinaya and bodhisattva vinaya..​

 

[S.A.M.]

Too complicated.