A race horse

[Gustav]

feel free to dumb it down then


edit: pardon. i forgot you already did....

 

[S.A.M.]

No I mean its too complicated having separate rules for monks and nuns and skandakas.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

As for me i am happy that the God of Abraham is guiding me.

*************
M*W: Interesting comment. Other than what you have read in your religious text, what do you know about the "God of Abraham?" This isn't meant to be an insult. Abraham's story is an interesting one whether it is truth or metaphor. Can you enlighten me about the depth of his relationship with Ishmael and Isaac, Sarah, the pharaoh they visited in Egypt, and his origin, etc..

Thanks.

 

[Gustav]

No I mean its too complicated having separate rules for............. skandakas.

i agree. rules for rules? what is that? metarules?

/snicker

 

[Gustav]

That was trashed the first time you said it, some threads back.

sam
would you like to rebut ice's claim? show him how you prevailed?
link the decisive post(s)

if not can you explain why you are beating a horse that is already dead?

 

[S.A.M.]

sam
would you like to rebut ice's claim? show him how you prevailed?
link the decisive post(s)

if not can you explain why you are beating a horse that is already dead?

Frankly I have no idea what he was referring to. I provided a link to a paper by an academic in the field with the evidence to support my assertion.

What he considers as "trashed" is not obvious to me.

 

[Gustav]

from "failure"........

And so you take Tibetan history and use it as an example for all Buddhism and Buddhist society? Prove that their very special form of Buddhism is pracitised in all Buddhist countries, which its not, and that their system of divine Buddhist leader as head of government is common in all Buddhist nations, which it isn't, and then you would have a point SAM. Tibeten Buddhism is an offshoot only practised by very few, which is why the Dalai Lama isn't the spiritual leader and head of all Buddhists.

Sorry SAM its a red herring attempt to prove your very broad arguments and its in no way indicative of Buddhism or Buddhist societies as a whole. Its like one of the members using the Taliban as an example to describe all of Islam.

No I look at the similarities of the monk bhikshu system in all places, from Tibet, to Burma [where the junta has supplanted the monks] to Nepal to Sri Lanka to even Dharamsala where the erstwhile Lama has estabished his mini serfdom and conclude that the system does not work. Apparently the desire to be free of suffering overcomes the desire to live with it with every single time.

No SAM the Junta is a purely militaristic state that hasn't the least bit of Buddhist doctrine it it. What you seem not to notice is that the Tibetans still revere their leaders and their traditions and that hasnt been supplanted with anything even as the Chinese took the region. Where is this supplanted system elsewhere SAM? In democratic Thailand and Cambodia? Communist China, Vietnam and Lao (which developed from Western threats) What about democratic S. Korea and Taiwan? Bhutan up until recently had an absolute monarchy but has now opened up to other political parties and expects parlimentary elections. Now under ALL these diverse POLITICAL systems Buddhism is STILL practised. What you are describing is rubbish, has no connection to reality.

SAM: Apparently the desire to be free of suffering overcomes the desire to live with it with every single time.

Again in what Buddhist country do they practise the desire to free themselves of suffering? Buddhists lead normal lives as far as I can tell so far, work, marriage, children, shopping, love, divorce, t.v, music, dancing. They are not sitting prostate eating only a bowl of vegetables and rice.

This is becoming tedious. Its only in the West do I hear of Buddhism in terms of 'ending' suffering as opposed to an understanding as suffering being part of the flux of all nature ie; birth, youth, health, sickness, old age and death. Happiness and misery, fortune and misfortune. It teaches that all these things should be taken in stride as existence is precarious and not limited to a single state of being.

You can still answer my post SAM.

Sure, because the system of Buddhism has failed. No one is following the x-fold path to nirvana. They've reverted to their pre-Buddhist societies, where a few flowers and a visit to the temple takes care of their spiritual well being.

No SAM living a modern life doesn't make them any less Buddhist. I suggest you try visiting a buddhist nation but still you didn't answer this:

No SAM the Junta is a purely militaristic state that hasn't the least bit of Buddhist doctrine it it. What you seem not to notice is that the Tibetans still revere their leaders and their traditions and that hasnt been supplanted with anything even as the Chinese took the region. Where is this supplanted system elsewhere SAM? In democratic Thailand and Cambodia? Communist China, Vietnam and Lao (which developed from Western threats) What about democratic S. Korea and Taiwan? Bhutan up until recently had an absolute monarchy but has now opened up to other political parties and expects parlimentary elections. Now under ALL these diverse POLITICAL systems Buddhism is STILL practised. What you are describing is rubbish, has no connection to reality.

How is Buddhism practised in these places?

Well it depends on the strain of Buddhism (mahayana, theravada), practise is based on their traditional legacy of rituals and rights during holidays, during times of trouble or rights of passage, regular visits to the temple where they get blessings from the monks, daily acknowledgment of Buddha by offering food to roaming monks who make daily morning visits, prayer and honoring the Buddha through the lighting of incense and food offerings at spirit houses which are in every work and home establishment, honoring dead relatives etc, observing the basic tenets of the religion in daily life and its interpretation differs as is usual in any tradition but basically means non-destruction of life, refrain from stealing, intoxicants, wanton sexual behaviour etc.

So basically a few visits to the temple, some chanting and bowing before the Buddha and a few flowers. Is that what Buddhism is about?

No its not all its about but its how it shows itself in everyday life for the average family. What is christianity for the average christian but church on sunday and observing holy holidays and adhering to the basic commandments as best they can. The difference between you and I is that I am an athiest so I don't feel the need to judge how sacred a religion is whether occidental or non-occidental. The difference between occidental and non-occidental traditions is that occidental traditions are judgemental by nature and breeds a common disrespect for other traditions so you have christian vs. muslim, jew vs christian, jew vs muslim, god vs man, man vs. nature, nature vs. god etc. Its a tradition of schisms. But besides all that I want to know why you seem to have abandoned your assertion which was this:

"No I look at the similarities of the monk bhikshu system in all places, from Tibet, to Burma [where the junta has supplanted the monks] to Nepal to Sri Lanka to even Dharamsala where the erstwhile Lama has estabished his mini serfdom and conclude that the system does not work."

And why you won't you answer this which was my response:

No SAM the Junta is a purely militaristic state that hasn't the least bit of Buddhist doctrine it it. What you seem not to notice is that the Tibetans still revere their leaders and their traditions and that hasnt been supplanted with anything even as the Chinese took the region. Where is this supplanted system elsewhere SAM? In democratic Thailand and Cambodia? Communist China, Vietnam and Lao (which developed from Western threats) What about democratic S. Korea and Taiwan? Bhutan up until recently had an absolute monarchy but has now opened up to other political parties and expects parlimentary elections. Now under ALL these diverse POLITICAL systems Buddhism is STILL practised. What you are describing is rubbish, has no connection to reality.

I see the junta as an extension of the feudal system that Buddhism created in other societies, I see the same in the Samurai system of Japan, the warrior monks of Korea, the landlord monks of Tibet, the soldier monks of Sri Lanka, the Buddhist Pol Pot, etc.

The system just devolves into feudalism no matter what the political system.

I'm happy that the Cambodians and Vietnamese have sublimated it into their local traditions. But they are not practising Buddhism. They are actually practising Hinduism with the Buddha avatar.

And yet S. Korea and Thailand and Taiwan are buddhist and democratic, N. korea is dictatorship, japan is a democracy, Cambodia despite its history is a democracy, Vietnam and lao is communist. hardly 'feudal' at all.

Pol Pot was a communist who renounced his religion which is why monks were also killed during the KR and all buddhist practise outlawed

And despite your ignorance Buddhism flourishes in both Cambodia and Vietnam not to mention Lao where monks can be seen walking the streets everyday and people practise their tradition everyday.

You confuse politics and religion, politics and society, make assertions which are obviously not true in present times. If what you said were true then Buddhism wouldn't exist under any of those systems which are so diverse but they do anyway.

 

[S.A.M.]

from "failure"........

Again I don't see where the claim I made was "trashed". Its clear that once they abandon the Buddhist rules for monks, nuns and laity, the system breaks down.

 

[Gustav]

can they then claim to be buddhists?

 

[S.A.M.]

No which is why its a failure. If you read the OP [which btw was snipped off from some other thread and named by madant], I quite distinctly said:

The only surviving Buddhist societies are the ones that don't follow Buddhism.

 

[Gustav]

feudal system that Buddhism created in other societies

do you still hold this to be true? what societies? what was the system of govt that existed prior to the advent of buddhism in each of these societies?

lets get rigorous in the methodology.

 

[Gustav]

The only surviving Buddhist societies are the ones that don't follow Buddhism.

why do you call them buddhist?

 

[S.A.M.]

do you still hold this to be true? what societies? what was the system of govt that existed prior to the advent of buddhism in each of these societies?

lets get rigorous in the methodology.

I'd have to look into it, but I assume they were all local kingdoms?

Were the monks always political? Always on par with [and even beyond] the kings and nobles?

Did Buddhism change anything for the better?

 

[Gustav]

you made the statement, ja?

again, you fail to show how the events unfold. your imply that egalitarian societies morph into facism with the advent of buddhism without one iota of evidence

Did Buddhism change anything for the better?

strawman

 

[S.A.M.]

Sure, absent any literature on armed monks blackmailing kings with war pre-Buddhism and the continuation of the same all the way down to armed monks practicisng Buddhist supremacy in Sri Lanka, I consider it a pretty valid observation.

Do you think I am mistaken? Show me the money

 

[Gustav]

i did not know about the armed monks in sri lanka. can you link? are there incidents that have been reported similar to say.......B'deshi madrassa weapons seizure

 

[S.A.M.]

i did not know about the armed monks in sri lanka. can you link? are there incidents that have been reported similar to say.......B'deshi madrassa weapons seizure

I already linked, haven't you been paying attention?

You can make the comparison yourself [note that the madrassa is not occupied by Buddhists].

Some more details on Buddhism in Sri Lanka

The JHU’s policies and program express, in an extreme form, the ideology of Buddhist supremacism that permeates every political party, the state apparatus, the armed forces and the media. It was enshrined in the country’s constitution in 1972 in the clause that transforms Buddhism into a state religion, and in government policies that entrench anti-Tamil discrimination.

...

It is no accident that sections of the Buddhist hierarchy are bitterly opposed to any peace deal. Their power and privileges were greatly enhanced by the constitutional provision turning Buddhism into a state religion. The Department of Buddhist Affairs has a substantial budget—185 million rupees in 2004—much of which finds its way into the hands of the monasteries. Any dilution of these anti-democratic measures would impact on the position of the Buddhist clergy.

These social layers will stop at nothing to defend their interests. The JHU, and its predecessor the SU, have been involved in a series of violent confrontations and provocations. The SU was widely held to be responsible for a series of attacks on Christian churches. One of the JHU’s main planks is the demand for an anti-conversion law that will ban Christian evangelicals from “unethical conversions”—that is, offering any aid to the Buddhist poor that might cause them to change their religion.

The JHU was in the forefront of the vicious communal campaign against the agreement under which the LTTE and government agreed to temporarily work together to distribute tsunami aid. JHU secretary Omalpe Sobhitha, an MP and monk, planted himself in front of the Temple of the Tooth in Kandy and declared that he would fast until death to stop the deal, known as P-TOMS, being signed. Other monks in Colombo joined him in branding the agreement as a national betrayal.
Reactionary communalism

All of this is well known to the Colombo media. Yet there is never a hint of criticism of the reactionary role of Buddhism and the Buddhist hierarchy in Sri Lankan politics. To comment on the disgusting spectacle of Rajapakse kneeling before the berobed JHU leader would be regarded as a public outrage to be denounced and condemned by all.

The reason behind this studied silence has nothing to do with any reverence for Buddhism. Rather it is a reflection of just how vital the ideology of Sinhala Buddhist supremacism is to the maintenance of bourgeois rule. Ever since national independence in 1948, the Sri Lankan bourgeoisie has fostered and whipped up Sinhala chauvinism as the means for justifying the creation of an artificial nation on this small island, for dividing the working class along communal lines and for securing a social base for its parties, the SLFP in particular.

The local ruling elite learnt from their former colonial masters. In signing the 1815 agreement with the remnants of the defeated Kandyan kingdom, the British agreed that “the religion of Buddhoo, its rites, ministers and places of worship are to be maintained and protected.” As historian K. M. de Silva commented: “They [the British governors of the island] valued Buddhism for its potential as a countervailing force against movements for change and reform which raised the prospect of disturbing the political balance which the British were seeking to maintain.”

Insofar as Buddhist monks later took an anti-colonial stance, it was, like the JHU, a reactionary attempt to restore the previous dominance of the Sinhala kings and the Buddhist priestly order. They inveighed against the immorality of British rule and denounced the local “whisky drinkers” who mimicked their colonial masters and did their bidding. They sought to divert the growing hostility to colonial rule into a temperance movement for the revival of Buddhist values.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/sep2005/sril-s21.shtml

 

[iceaura]

. Comparing Muqtada al Sadr to them is ridiculous.

No, it's direct and obvious.

He's a cleric with control of an army. Most other examples of that, in human history, have worked out poorly.

Again I don't see where the claim I made was "trashed".

You attempted to positively correlate a State ideology of Buddhism and State fascism by listing instances of no such correlation - such as Japan, where the correlation is negative, and a couple of places where one or the other was missing.

Then you denied the correlation between Catholicism and fascism, which is kind of obvious during the 20th century however coincidental it may be, and the possibility of a correlation between Islam and fascism, which takes more arguing but is easily a possibility - the alliances are straightforward, anyway, since WWII. The example of Judaism (in Israel) and fascism is a bit tricky, but maybe that one would have flown, I dunno.

That's all. No big deal. I can't quite figure out why you want the one correlation to exist, and the others not, even. But the blinkered race horse is still proving out as a metaphor, to all appearances.

 

[S.A.M.]

I guess we have our own perspectives on that issue. Christianity to my mind has also been abused as a state ideology, and thats probably why it has been rewritten so many times, to suit whoever is in power.

 

[Gustav]

I already linked, haven't you been paying attention?

where are the fucking monks with fucking guns?
you fucking said "armed" did you not?
show me that it is the fucking norm