A Jewish Holiday Worth Borrowing

Kadark said:
As Sam said:

"highly acclaimed Orthodox rabbi who has published an edition of the English translation of the Talmud"

I don't know Hebrew, so considering my circumstances, it's fair to say that a Jew with such impressive credentials is likely my best source for understanding the Talmud. You're here saying he quoted the text incorrectly.

I ask you, is your résumé as impressive as his? Do tell.
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ho ho ho? when you said the elders of zion was true and proven i asked you for evidence, you ran away, now you are saying you prefer an english version on something that was translated from hebrew?

being a 25 years old speaking hebrew as a mother tongue isnt better? i met foreigns rabbis who know hebrew less then me-so you can beileve what you want.

i think the mistake of whoever translated the text made was to translate men instead of adam-just like the refuting sources i quote say, which is actually the source of the confusion-however, the passage still doesnt say gentiles are not men, as chhush said and linked us to a muslim site that supposedly proves it.

talmud is learned from hebrew. you cant learn it from english.
 
i think the mistake of whoever translated the text made was to translate men instead of adam-just like the refuting sources i quote say, which is actually the source of the confusion-however, the passage still doesnt say gentiles are not men, as chhush said and linked us to a muslim site that supposedly proves it.
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I'm not saying you are wrong, as I cannot read the Hebrew myself. I'm just challenging you calling chuush a liar when authoritative sources support his query.

What is the word that has been wrongly translated?
 
S.A.M. said:
Even the term Gentiles, used for non-Jews, refers to pagan sex worshippers and demon worshippers and is itself a derogatory term.

1 Thessalonians 4:5 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
5Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

1 Corinthians 10:20 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
20But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
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so you insist that non jews are not consider men according to the talmud.

youll do anything to keep up your hate hu SAM :D
 
S.A.M. said:
I'm not saying you are wrong, as I cannot read the Hebrew myself. I'm just challenging you calling chuush a liar when authoritative sources support his query.

What is the word that has been wrongly translated?
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chussh said that non jews are not considered men according to the talmud.

you wanna support him and say its true?
 
ho ho ho? when you said the elders of zion was true and proven i asked you for evidence, you ran away, now you are saying you prefer an english version on something that was translated from hebrew?
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No, actually, I offered to provide evidence but iceaura said don't bother.

being a 25 years old speaking hebrew as a mother tongue isnt better? i met foreigns rabbis who know hebrew less then me-so you can beileve what you want.
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The Rabbi speaks Hebrew and has researched libraries worth of material about his religion. He is a higher authority for Judaism than you are.
 
Mr.Spock said:
chussh said that non jews are not considered men according to the talmud.

you wanna support him and say its true?
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I provided you a quote from an authoritative Talmud translation which supports that.

http://www.come-and-hear.com/babamezia/babamezia_114.html

Said he [Rabbah] to him: Art thou not a priest:2 why then dost thou stand in a cemetery?3 — He replied: Has the Master not studied the laws of purity?4 For it has been taught: R. Simeon b. Yohai said: The graves of Gentiles do not defile, for it is written, And ye my flock, the flock of my pastures, are men;5 only ye are designated 'men'.6
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S.A.M. said:
I provided you a quote from an authoritative Talmud translation which supports that.

http://www.come-and-hear.com/babamezia/babamezia_114.html
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its says nothing of that sort-Cf. Num. XIX, 14: This is the law, when a man dieth in a tent; all that come into the tent, and all that is in the tent, shall be unclean seven days.

and it doesnt say men either.

you wanna keep on arguing what the talmud teach about non jews? :rolleyes:
 
Kadark said:
So, how many conversations in Hebrew have you had with the man? I'm guessing somewhere along the lines of zero.
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like you tried to talk to zionist about the elders of zion book? :eek:

this guy says exactly what i said:
In Numbers 19:14 the Written Torah states that "If [a] man [person] dies inside a tent ...." and the passage goes on to describe the laws of ritual impurity caused by the corpse.

The sages considered whether this law applied to all men or only to Jews. It might have been thought that the word 'man' or 'person' would indicate a reference to both Jews and non-Jews. However the Oral tradition made it clear that when the Torah uses the word 'man' or 'person' in connection with legal restrictions the reference is usually to Jews and not to non-Jews who are not bound by Torah law.

The Talmudic passage states in connection with this matter: "'... My sheep ... you are men' (Ez. 34:31); you [Jews] are called 'adam' [men], and the idol worshippers are not called 'adam' [men]".

Commentators explain that the use of the word 'men' [adam] in this passage is similar to the use of the word 'person' in modern national law codes. When such a law code uses the term 'person' the reference is not universal but is restricted to those persons who are bound by that national law code.

Similarly in the case at hand the laws of ritual impurity apply only to Jews and not to non-Jews. The passage should thus be understood as follows:

"It is a general rule of interpretation in the Torah that for the purpose of legal enactments the term 'person' refers to Jews, who are bound by the law, and does not refer to non-Jews who are not bound by the law". It is interesting to note that the proof text is taken from Ezekiel Chapter 34 in which Israel is compared to sheep.

Another interpretation given by commentators is that when the context is negative (as in a discussion of ritual impurity caused by a corpse or the commission of a sin) the word 'man' is used to refer to Jews only (in this
way not bringing shame on the name 'Israel'), but when the context is positive then the word includes all of mankind.

With this understanding the Talmudic passage should be understood as follows:

"It is a general rule of interpretation in the Torah that in a negative context such as that of ritual impurity the word 'man' refers to Jews only, and not to non-Jews".

This sentence appears three times in the Talmud; the reference in Baba Mezia 114a is tangential and therefore the subject is not developed at any length. An honest reader would follow the cross-references to the other locations and note that in Kerithoth 6b the Talmud points out that the application of this principle of interpretation is questionable in any event.

Yevamot 61a is the third place in which this rule of interpretation is mentioned and in this location the commentators on the page also point out that this rule of interpretation has very limited use. They specifically cross reference to the Talmudic statements in Avoda Zara 3a and Sanhedrin 59a which compare non-Jews who engage in Torah study to the High Priest.
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its says nothing about non jews not being men, so let it go.

or actually dont-im enjoying it.
 
Spock said:
The sages considered whether this law applied to all men or only to Jews. It might have been thought that the word 'man' or 'person' would indicate a reference to both Jews and non-Jews. However the Oral tradition made it clear that when the Torah uses the word 'man' or 'person' in connection with legal restrictions the reference is usually to Jews and not to non-Jews who are not bound by Torah law.

The Talmudic passage states in connection with this matter: "'... My sheep ... you are men' (Ez. 34:31); you [Jews] are called 'adam' [men], and the idol worshippers are not called 'adam' [men]".

Commentators explain that the use of the word 'men' [adam] in this passage is similar to the use of the word 'person' in modern national law codes. When such a law code uses the term 'person' the reference is not universal but is restricted to those persons who are bound by that national law code.
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That makes sense to me. And that is the right way to answer a query, not by insinuating that the rabbi is a fraud and everyone is an anti-semite.

Its similar to how people are called the Quran too, with adam used for men, indicating that adam is a word used to designate people.


The word Adam occurs twenty five times in the Quran but it is used in twenty one cases as a symbol for self-conscious humanity. Here, it is pertinent to point out that the word Adam is a Hebrew word (from adamah meaning the soil) and it functions generally as a collective noun referring to the human rather than to a male person. In the Quran, the word Adam (which Arabic borrowed from Hebrew) mostly does not refer to a particular human being. Rather it refers to human being in a particular way. ...
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http://saudiamber.blogspot.com/2007/07/is-there-space-for-feminism-in-islam.html
 
S.A.M. said:
That makes sense to me. And that is the right way to answer a query, not by insinuating that the rabbi is a fraud and everyone is an anti-semite.

Its similar to how people are called the Quran too, with adam used for men, indicating that adam is a word used to designate people.
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so we learn several things:

a. you think jews dont consider non jews as men - without checking.

b. you didnt bother to read it the first time i posted it.

d. you didnt bother to read the interpretation of the same text you outed that specifically explains what that lines is intended to.

c. i never said he is a fraud, i said that probably someone took a pen jewish name because i knew for a fact that the passage doesnt say anything on non jews being not men. maybe i was a little hasty on that. but i have no problem saying im wrong-he just mistranslated adam to men. actually the entire line is not entirely accurate-as every word or connotation in the talmud, bible and every other jewish religious document is important.


actually the only thing you were right about was that the rabbi and the translation are real. but you still hate jews.

so you still want to insisnt its says non jews are no men according to the talmud ? :D
 
i never said he is a fraud, i said that probably someone took a pen jewish name because i knew for a fact that the passage doesnt say anything on non jews being not men. maybe i was a little hasty on that. but i have no problem saying im wrong-he just mistranslated adam to men. actually the entire line is not entirely accurate-as every word or connotation in the talmud, bible and every other jewish religious document is important.
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Hmm so when you said his English name may be Brian, you were referring to Monty Python?

I understand the vagaries of translation, so I never take stuff from translation without checking it for some semblance of authenticity.

But you called chuush a liar for doing the same thing that the rabbis have done -putting human instead of men- and my intent was merely to challenge you on that. As far as I am concerned, the Talmud can go the way of teh Hadiths.
 
S.A.M. said:
Hmm so when you said his English name may be Brian, you were referring to Monty Python?

I understand the vagaries of translation, so I never take stuff from translation without checking it for some semblance of authenticity.

But you called chuush a liar for doing the same thing that the rabbis have done -putting human instead of men- and my intent was merely to challenge you on that.
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where did i say he was liar? :confused:
 
Mr.Spock said:
where did i say he was liar? :confused:
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You called all muslims liars. He happens to be one.

Mr.Spock said:
for the 1000 time-thats a fake quote. jews are obligated to dedicate their lifes to correct the world and bring peace by studying the torah. its their duty.

and im not surprised its a muslim site-the one best they know how to do, spread hate and misinformation.
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Mr.Spock said:
for the 1000 time-thats a fake quote. jews are obligated to dedicate their lifes to correct the world and bring peace by studying the torah. its their duty.

and im not surprised its a muslim site-the one best they know how to do, spread hate and misinformation.
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this is my initial response to chuuush-where did i call him a liar?

i think you tried to defend the quote because YOU beileve that what it says. he quoted from a muslim site with fake talmud quoted designed to spread hate on jews. you want to defend them? go ahead im waiting.
 
S.A.M. said:
You called all muslims liars. He happens to be one.
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i didnt know he was a muslims. and i never used the term liars i said they are fake, which makes my other assertion true-muslims are best at spreading hate without checking their sources first :p

but what the heck-im opened to a debate whether the source he used to quote from is true or not.
 
Mr.Spock said:
this is my initial response to chuuush-where did i call him a liar?

i think you tried to defend the quote because YOU beileve that what it says. he quoted from a muslim site with fake talmud quoted designed to spread hate on jews. you want to defend them? go ahead im waiting.
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Its not a fake quote, its just a literal translation. Like using men instead of those-who-are-bound-by-the-Torah. I'm assuming most English translations of that verse are more likely to use the former rather than the latter.
 
S.A.M. said:
Its not a fake quote, its just a literal translation. Like using men instead of those-who-are-bound-by-the-Torah. I'm assuming most English translations of that verse are more likely to use the former rather than the latter.
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of course:
"The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts."
Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b
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so, where does it say they are beasts?

http://www.missionislam.com/nwo/talmud.htm


**again to call him a liar i have to presume he knew it is a fake quote.
 
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