A Jewish Holiday Worth Borrowing

So what do you say about these: "The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts." Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b
You're confusing the Talmud with the Torah. The Torah is the first five books of the Old Testament and is considered by Jewish fundamentalists to be the word of god. The Talmud is just a record of discussions by ancient scholars ("rabbis") about Jewish customs, laws and culture. These are the words of human beings and they are argumentative. I'm sure for every statement in the Talmud, if you look hard enough you'll find another rabbi who said exactly the opposite. The whole point is to get Jews to think about their religion and use reason to guide their lives, instead of being misled by irrational blind faith the way Christians and Muslims so often are.

You can't take one quote out of the Talmud and say, "See here, this is what Jews believe." You don't understand Jews or their documents.

At some point in their history just about every human tribe has said, "We're humans and all the rest of you are animals." That's how we always justified conquest, occupation and slavery. Europeans and Americans thought that about Africans, merely 200 years ago!
 
You're confusing the Talmud with the Torah. The Torah is the first five books of the Old Testament and is considered by Jewish fundamentalists to be the word of god. The Talmud is just a record of discussions by ancient scholars ("rabbis") about Jewish customs, laws and culture. These are the words of human beings and they are argumentative. I'm sure for every statement in the Talmud, if you look hard enough you'll find another rabbi who said exactly the opposite. The whole point is to get Jews to think about their religion and use reason to guide their lives, instead of being misled by irrational blind faith the way Christians and Muslims so often are.

But it doesn't change the fact that Talmud is a well-accepted Jewish book and there are many lines that spread hatred and racism in it. The fact that these lines made it into a credible Jewish book should be somehow illustrating, don't you think so?

You can't take one quote out of the Talmud and say, "See here, this is what Jews believe." You don't understand Jews or their documents.

There are more than one quote actually.. but anyway the same can be said of any oher religion when others criticize it.. you can easily say you don't undertand muslims or christians, etc.

At some point in their history just about every human tribe has said, "We're humans and all the rest of you are animals." That's how we always justified conquest, occupation and slavery. Europeans and Americans thought that about Africans, merely 200 years ago!
I do not agree with this point. Europeans and Americans maybe, but the Jewish one doesn't seem to be a statment in the wartime.. it look like a general advise to the jews..
 
I do not agree with this point. Europeans and Americans maybe, but the Jewish one doesn't seem to be a statment in the wartime.. it look like a general advise to the jews..
The U.S. attitude that Africans were less than human had nothing to do with wartime either. Neither did their attitude that America's aboriginal people were less than human. That attitude started a number of wars; it was not the result of a war.

The Jews were and are no worse and no better than the rest of us.

The winners of WWII put the Jews in an impossible situation. They "gave" them somebody else's homeland and said, "Here, make this work for yourselves." What was it; less than one year before virtually every adjoining nation declared war on them? Nice way for the Europeans to make up for a thousand years of antisemitism!

Wouldn't it be nice if they'd settled them in Baja California or Southwestern Australia instead? Knowing what they can do with a desert!
 
The U.S. attitude that Africans were less than human had nothing to do with wartime either. Neither did their attitude that America's aboriginal people were less than human. That attitude started a number of wars; it was not the result of a war.

The Jews were and are no worse and no better than the rest of us.

The winners of WWII put the Jews in an impossible situation. They "gave" them somebody else's homeland and said, "Here, make this work for yourselves." What was it; less than one year before virtually every adjoining nation declared war on them? Nice way for the Europeans to make up for a thousand years of antisemitism!

Wouldn't it be nice if they'd settled them in Baja California or Southwestern Australia instead? Knowing what they can do with a desert!

I'm not an American (even anti-US government), and I fully agree that Americans were racist and igorant. The same can be said about the British and the French (in India, Vietnam, Algeria, America, Australia...).

Your viewpoint about Jews and Palestine is correct according to me. The establishment of a state so-called Israel in the middle east was a long-thought plan to put the muslims in permanent trouble and discourse in their own geography. But you can't acquit the jews just saying they were put in an impossible situation. They were the ones who choose to occupy the lands of others, committed massacres to force the locals leave, and badged every resistance against their aggressions as terrorism.
 
But you can't acquit the jews just saying they were put in an impossible situation.
I do not mean to acquit them. I'm just pointing out that there is plenty of responsibility to go around.
They were the ones who choose to occupy the lands of others, committed massacres to force the locals leave, and badged every resistance against their aggressions as terrorism.
I've always found it to be a remarkable exercise in cognitive dissonance for Americans, of all people, to support Israel. Their historical claim to Palestine is about two thousand years old, and we have no respect for historical issues that go back any farther than the memories of our grandparents. If we insist that the Jews had a valid claim on Palestine then that puts us in the awkward position of choosing whether we are required to give Arizona back to the Mexicans or to the Navajo.
 
The talmud is full of it and is indeed the supposed most studied judeaic text by modern practicing Jews. there may be some fringe sects that stick to the Torah. Oh wait, those are actually Chirtians. Silly me. Guess there aren't any surviving Jews in that category, but in Jesus time there was though. That non-jews are beasts is actually pretty tame compared to some of the racist bigoted crap that book of hate spews. It also recounts 2 previous "holocausts" against the Jews. One where something like 4 billion Jews were killed by the romans, and another where some 4 million Jewish children were killed by the romans. All 100% BS, makes you could wonder about the supposed one that happened in WW2, don't it?
 
So what do you say about these: "The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts."
Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b

http://www.missionislam.com/nwo/talmud.htm

i would say that the talmud is not the core religious text in judaism. that would be the torah.

if you put the torah aside in favor of anything else, you arent practicing judaism anymore.

you will not find anything of the sort in the torah.
 
i would say that the talmud is not the core religious text in judaism. that would be the torah.

if you put the torah aside in favor of anything else, you arent practicing judaism anymore.

you will not find anything of the sort in the torah.

and is Talmud a dispensable book in Judaism?
 
and is Talmud a dispensable book in Judaism?

well, im hardly an orthodox jew, but i rarely bother with it.
the core teachings of judaism are in the torah. anything else is extra, as far as im concerned.

im not allowed in temple in my hometown, so make what you will of what i think.
:)
 
Yom Kippur, when you take the theological out of it, is about atoning for the bad things you've done during the year. It consists of asking forgiveness, literally, from all the people whom you think you've wronged (e.g. your buddy for not helping him with something, or your mom for not listening to her, or some girl you called fat...), and punishing yourself for these transgressions by not eating for 24 hours, not wearing comfortable shoes (e.g. of leather), not driving the car and using electricity (like on any Sabbath), or use any conveniences that we usually enjoy in our everyday lives.

The religious implication is that G-d writes down all the good and bad deeds you do every year, and every year he performs an "audit" of you. Every "sin" you atone for, reduces the "bad" list and increases the "good" list in His books. The goal is to get the "good signature", meaning you've passed G-d's audit, which is why Jews wish eachother "have a good signature" during Yom Kippur.

If you filter the religious stuff out, this holy day has universal appeal, IMO.
 
You can't do that. The only way to surely become a jew is to be born of a yewish mother.

In a sense you are correct. If you convert, you're still not able to do half the stuff a child born of a jewish mother can. Such as yom kippur for example. There is certain practices you can only take part of if you have a jewish mother.

Hence all the jokes you may hear about a jewish mother encouraging her son to marry only jewish women. It's very difficult in itself to practice as an orthodox jew.

Take what you will from it, but even if you convert, you'll never be fully accepted.. hence you are correct in saying to surely become a jew you must be born of a jewish mother.
 
and is Talmud a dispensable book in Judaism?
It's not exactly dispensible. The Torah is traditionally regarded as the words of the Israelites' god, as transcribed by Moses. These first five books of the Old Testament comprise the definition and foundation of the Jewish religion, as well as the traditional ancient history of the Israelite/Jewish people from the point in time when they split off from the other Canaanite tribes (one of whom, according to increasing scientific evidence, was the Palestinians). In other words, the Torah is sacred, at least to Orthodox Jews and others who take it seriously because of either its supernatural or traditional nature.

Unlike the Torah, which is traditionally dated to the 13th century BCE and attributed to one of the great prophets of the three Abrahamic faiths, the Talumud was written by ordinary folks during the Christian Era. It is a compendium of the oral law of the Jews in an era when the Jewish commonwealth had dissipated under the military, political and cultural pressure of the dominant societies they lived in. It is the writings of rabbis or "scholars," who wanted to preserve all of Jewish culture--not just the religion--without a Temple as the center of scholarship and with a nation that was virtual instead of geographical.

Much of the Talmud is written in the style of debates with many voices participating, which presages--and perhaps informs--the stereotype of Jews as people who never stop arguing in their search for the truth. The Talmud is by no means sacred and any rabbi--i.e. any scholar of Judaica, not just the leader of a religious congregation--is free to question it, although he's going up against some great minds.

Every religion has its unique features. A unique feature of Judaism is that one of its most fundamental documents, the Talmud, is open to debate.

The specific rhetorical style of the Talmud, a pensive, logical concatenation of conditional premises leading to a question to be debated, is often used by Jewish scholars to clarify points in question, and is called "Talmudic reasoning." It is one in which any scientist will quickly recognize some of the prototypical elements of the Scientific Method.
 
On to another holiday: Passover, which started at sundown yesterday. An op-ed in today's Washington Post by Claire Simmons highlights the significance of Passover in a post-Holocaust world. Abstracts:

This year, the celebration of Passover coincides with the 45th anniversary of the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto on April 19, 1943.

In 1940, Nazi forces herded more than 400,000 Jews, nearly 40% of the population of occupied Warsaw, into an area of only 1.3 square miles, surrounded by 10-foot-high walls topped with barbed wire. By the spring of 1943, one tenth of this population had died from starvation or disease.

On April 19, occupying German troops and police stormed this ghetto to deport its survivors to the Treblinka death camp. A handful of resistors--probably around 750 teenagers and young adults--held off this assault by a far more powerful force for more than three weeks.

The heroism of the fighters is enshrined in history, but what is less well-known is a different type of resistance by ordinary men, women and children who refused to despair and die anonymously. Their bravery is part of a legacy of spiritual resistance and freedom that is often misunderstood, yet is the central theme of freedom in Passover.

It must be understood that the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was never about achieving freedom from oppression, because the outcome was never in doubt. (The Jews expected the Nazis to be the brave warriors of their own propaganda, who would take casualties in order to end the uprising in a few days, rather than being held at bay by some starving kids with a few light weapons for almost a month.) The revolt was about denying their German (and Polish) oppressors some part of their humanity, and about sending a message to future generations regarding the true meaning of "freedom."

Throughout the sequestration of the ghetto behind a morbid curtain of death, there was never a hope of escape or mercy. Public prayer was punished by execution. Yet prayer services were held in clandestine locations, secret factories fabricated matzos, and children confirmed their freedom to be human by studying the Torah in underground schools. Even secular cultural activities fluorished, with theatrical productions in Yiddish, Russian and Hebrew.

Why did these people use their last vestige of freedom in this way? Consider historian Emmanuel Ringelblum, who chose to use his freedom to document the Nazi atrocities and the refusal of the Jewish people to surrender their religious, cultural and political life to tyranny. He buried his records in large milk cans, which were discovered and preserved after the war ended.

The actions of these people teach us that "Passover" is not a "passive" celebration of historical events, nor of laissez-faire libertarianism, nor even the freedom to be left alone.

It is a celebration of the freedom to repair the world, to light a candle for posterity, to continue to perform the many small prosaic acts of solidarity and sacrifice--for friend and stranger alike--in the shadow of totalitarianism, and even under circumstances calculated to make us assume these acts will be meaningless.

According to Jewish tradition, the prophet Elijah waged a struggle to deliver freedom from oppression. On Passover, Jews open their doors to Elijah and his promise of redemption from tyranny. It is a freedom that armed freedom fighters may, in some circumstances, secure, but not one that they can maintain.

Simmons closes this piece with words that everyone--Jew and Gentile--should hear. (And yes, words that many of us--Jew and Gentile--would like to say to the leaders of Israel and other nations.)

"The true meaning of Passover, as those in the Warsaw Ghetto understood, is the freedom to engage the world, to fulfill our responsibilities as citizens, and to reject the seductions of spiritual and political retreat. As the martyrs of the Ghetto knew all too well, the work of Elijah must inevitably be our own."
 
So what do you say about these: "The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts."
Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b

http://www.missionislam.com/nwo/talmud.htm

for the 1000 time-thats a fake quote. jews are obligated to dedicate their lifes to correct the world and bring peace by studying the torah. its their duty.

and im not surprised its a muslim site-the one best they know how to do, spread hate and misinformation.
 
so you also believe its true?:p

You can read it if you like.

If a man dies, according to Talmudic law, then standing on or near his gravesite is considered a defilement. This does not apply to graves of gentiles as they are not considered men.

You should at least look up the Talmud before calling anyone a liar.
 
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