A Gesture of Reconciliation

[S.A.M.]

For victims to forgive is one thing, for an institution to forgive an act by not demanding a price for the crime is an injustice. They basically received a slap on the wrist and the workers moved to a different part of the university ground. I think they should have been expelled. I think this is a forced show of forgiveness.

I agree that it is the person who is wronged who should have the option to forgive. This is just a case of money and power. The real deal would have been for the workers to publicly forgive the students for their acts. And mean it. I was answering the general sentiment.

In this case, as you said, the young men do not feel intimidated and probably also do not think they did anything wrong. Ideally, I would like them to drink the workers urine.

 

[WillNever]

The problem with the workers doing a public forgiving while meaning it is that they did not appear very distraught during nor shortly after the event took place. They were even clapping and laughing in the scene where the whiskey bottle was awarded.

 

[S.A.M.]

I think you're severely deluded if you intimate that they wanted to drink the urine or that they did not mind it. There is a power equation at play here.

 

[WillNever]

I think they surely acted like they didn't mind. In the unedited 10 minute version, they are playing ball and racing with those boys. Probably they were not as annoyed about the urine trick until after they heard that this video was made public by these kids, which led to the idea of ridicule.

 

[S.A.M.]

I think they surely acted like they didn't mind..

How would YOU act if a group of bullies was doing it to you?

 

[WillNever]

I wouldn't act that way, actually, and those black cleaning ladies appeared to be doing all that stuff voluntarily. Bullying implies that they were scared into doing it. That's not how it appears.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Allegedly? Alleged by whom? "Allegations" are not adequate reasons to ruin people's lives for the 80 more years they will be live by expelling them from school.

Even if it were true, which it very well may be, that is a case of the punishment not fitting the crime. This is one event that these black people were not permanently injured over. I'm quite sure they will get over it. People do worse things in frat houses. You guys are letting mock outrage and hatred overtake your decision making.

Well they posted it on the internet so its not 'alleged'. I don't see how being expelled from university would ruin ones life for '80' years and I think expulsion was the right way to handle it. As for forgiveness what you are suggesting seems to be that any action should go unpunished. Take for example the Roman Polanski case, the fact that his victim had forgiven him and put the whole affair in the past does not mean he should not face punishment. Punishment is not doled out based on whether someone was forgiven or not by their victims.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

BTW if none of you understand why the chancellor is doing this, you need to review South Africa's history. Look up something called "The Truth and Reconciliation Commission." The goal here it to repair and co-exist, not fall back into even worse hatred and racial divisiveness. I know that forgiveness and reconciliation are values that are not highly prized here in the USA, but they are in South Africa.

How long do you think south african blacks are going to forgive these kinds of behaviour? Its bad enough that murders were allowed to go free because they admitted wrong. What these four students had done was akin to what happens to someone when they are raped which is to take away someone's dignity.

As for the truth and reconciliation it was never something I thought helpful, its better than retribution violence but people need to pay for crimes of murder. Why didn't we forgive nazi criminals? Why didn't we forgive the crimes against humanity perpetrated in Kosovo? We punish people for bad behaviour not simply for the sake of the victims and their family but for society as a whole. The message the chancellor sent was that the dignity of those workers is irrelevant.

The attitude of the victims doesn't surprise me and it could be explained in a number of ways shock being one of them. In Asia for example it is not uncommon for people to laugh when confronted with something ugly or uncomfortable. Rape victims don't always act with outrage right after their victimization, they sometimes go into denial and pretend nothing has happened ie go home, shower, change clothes and shut down. Also Sam made a good point about the power play. In a country where blacks have long since been taught to act with servile towards any white it doesn't surprise me that they would grin and bear rather than act out in rage.
What I fin additionally annoying is that the workers were not compensated in anyway and were not consulted on the decision to bring back the students.

 

[WillNever]

Well they posted it on the internet so its not 'alleged'. I don't see how being expelled from university would ruin ones life for '80' years and I think expulsion was the right way to handle it. As for forgiveness what you are suggesting seems to be that any action should go unpunished. Take for example the Roman Polanski case, the fact that his victim had forgiven him and put the whole affair in the past does not mean he should not face punishment. Punishment is not doled out based on whether someone was forgiven or not by their victims.

They already were punished. They were suspended for a year.

How does expulsion ruin your life for 80 years, you ask? If their school didn't reinvite them, they would have a rather hard time getting into another one based on their reason for expulsion. That means they can't move on with their lives professionally -- a punishment which would be completely unrelated to the event at hand. It means they might never get to go back to school and follow through with their careers, which affects them forever. To a lot of people, that is a life-ruiner.

No one deserves to have their life ruined for almost a century due to this crappola. Sorry. Especially when you consider that no permanent damage to the workers resulted from this event.

 

[CutsieMarie89]

They already were punished. They were suspended for a year.

How does expulsion ruin your life for 80 years, you ask? If their school didn't reinvite them, they would have a rather hard time getting into another one based on their reason for expulsion. That means they can't move on with their lives professionally -- a punishment which would be completely unrelated to the event at hand. It means they might never get to go back to school and follow through with their careers, which affects them forever. To a lot of people, that is a life-ruiner.

No one deserves to have their life ruined for almost a century due to this crappola. Sorry. Especially when you consider that no permanent damage to the workers resulted from this event.

How is expulsion permanent damage as long as they weren't failing they could get into another school. And why should punishment be based on permanent damage to a victim? Rape victims, swindled out of all of their money, will all be "fine", hell I was shot earlier this year and I'm fine now, should my shooter get off without so much as a reprimand?

 

[WillNever]

Please cease drawing illogical parallels between this event and your own life. These students did not get off without so much as a reprimand. They had their lives put on hold for one whole year. I'm quite sure that whatever lesson that would be visited upon them by a full expulsion has already been visited on them in this period of time.

 

[milkweed]

How does expulsion ruin your life for 80 years, you ask? If their school didn't reinvite them, they would have a rather hard time getting into another one based on their reason for expulsion. That means they can't move on with their lives professionally -- a punishment which would be completely unrelated to the event at hand. It means they might never get to go back to school and follow through with their careers, which affects them forever. To a lot of people, that is a life-ruiner.

Maybe they can get jobs cleaning rest rooms. Seems they have a fetish for body fluids.

I have no sympathy for these perverts. They were grown-ups when they decided to make their statement to the world. Theres lots of ways to legitimately protest something you dont agree with that do not involve urinating on food and feeding it to the victims, victims who have no control over the issue these morons claim they were protesting.

Professionals with this kind of mentality are not needed. They are grown ups and set in their values of right and wrong. The world has had a glimpse into the character of these people and its been found lacking.

 

[WillNever]

They are grown ups and set in their values of right and wrong.

HALT.

This quotation in your post, among all others, speaks VOLUMES about you... especially considering that your statements are pertaining to 18 to 21 year olds in this case, an age when people's ideas are known to be highly impressionable.

Milkweed, your lack of faith in people's ability to learn and change isn't the issue here, nor is your markedly negative and fatalistic outlook on humans in general. You may believe in the permanency of the meaning of a single bad act, but that typically indicates you have a deep hatred buried in your own heart for all other people, which is why you wish to see unnecessary punishments carried out to the extreme.

Try to divorce yourself from that state of mind, if you can. This is about more than just you and whatever psychological mal-adjustments you may have.

 

[CutsieMarie89]

Please cease drawing illogical parallels between this event and your own life. These students did not get off without so much as a reprimand. They had their lives put on hold for one whole year. I'm quite sure that whatever lesson that would be visited upon them by a full expulsion has already been visited on them in this period of time.

How was it illogical? You said that they shouldn't be punished because the damage to the victims was not permanent. I was asking you personally not the specific case.

 

[milkweed]

HALT.

This quotation in your post, among all others, speaks VOLUMES about you... especially considering that your statements are pertaining to 18 to 21 year olds in this case, an age when people's ideas are known to be highly impressionable.

Milkweed, your lack of faith in people's ability to learn and change isn't the issue here, nor is your markedly negative and fatalistic outlook on humans in general. You may believe in the permanency of the meaning of a single bad act, but that typically indicates you have a deep hatred buried in your own heart for all other people, which is why you wish to see unnecessary punishments carried out to the extreme.

Try to divorce yourself from that state of mind, if you can. This is about more than just you and whatever psychological mal-adjustments you may have.

They were highly impressionable at 8-14. At college level I expect a bit more ability to distinguish between right and wrong. Simple TRUTH.

You may want to wrap yourself in the delusion that this was the first time these perps ever did something wrong, but I dont. I doubt its the first time they got caught either. Its just the first time their arrogance (and complete stupidity in posting the evidence on youtube) and their lack of empathy for other human beings (sociopaths) put them in the world spotlight.

Dont try to project the reality of these perps onto me. Tis them (and your defense of them) that is showing the symptoms of psychological maladjustment here.

 

[WillNever]

Nay, Milkweed. You need a formal lesson in lifespan development psychology. Badly. Years 18 to 25 are the most formative years in someone's identity, according to what we know about each stage of development. You can rarely make a judgement of what someone will be like by the time adolescence completes. You can usually make a judgement by the end of early adulthood, however. Early adulthood is the first time you are on your own and have the opportunity to transform your life. You're dead wrong about everything, your opinion screams "I'm ignorant!" very loudly and very clearly.

It also screams that you're a brooding person with a limited view of someone's ability to change. That's a bad thing, not a good thing.

You may want to wrap yourself in the delusion that this was the first time these perps ever did something wrong, but I dont. I doubt its the first time they got caught either. Its just the first time their arrogance (and complete stupidity in posting the evidence on youtube) and their lack of empathy for other human beings (sociopaths) put them in the world spotlight.

Please try and substantiate your claim of delusion with a list of past wrongs.

 

[milkweed]

You're dead wrong about everything, your opinion screams "I'm ignorant!" very loudly and very clearly.

It also screams that you're a brooding person with a limited view of someone's ability to change. That's a bad thing, not a good thing.

Please try and substantiate your claim of delusion with a list of past wrongs.

Sorry honey, but the fact you cannot focus on the actions of these individuals and continue to defend them and deflect the issue onto those who dont agree with the response of the chancellor shows you have psychological issues.

You insist upon attacking the people who disagree which shows your actually a brooding bully who cant stand to be wrong. Hence your use of terms such as faith, ignorant, psychological babble, bolded declarations, hyperbole (80 years LOL) and other drivel (such as the suggestion I am not old enough to remember the fight against apartheid), all efforts to get personal in your attacks on those who disagree with your assessment. Your points have no substance and do not stand on their own.

I think your immature, hence your insistence thats its everyone else's fault but the perps.

I am not ignorant of the situation, I disagree with the chancellors response.

 

[WillNever]

Milkweed, I can't help but notice your decision to utilize my choice of words and copy my writing style. We have a word for that: "redirect."Are you having some sort of identity crisis? Don't be a follower in life. You have a brain. Use it.

I think your immature, hence your insistence thats its everyone else's fault but the perps.

Who is "everyone else?" The cleaning ladies? The chancellor? Me? You? Can you please show us that I stated this was someone else's fault and not the kids?

THE ANSWER: you can't quote such things, because they don't exist. You're also seeing personal attacks from me where none exist, either. Clearly you're paranoic and mistrusting of people's behavior. You believe that someone's values are set in stone at the ages of 18 to 21, despite decades of social science proving otherwise. You also believe that a single bad act committed in those formative years of someone's life should have an effect on the course of their life for the rest of eternity, it seems. Methinks you are lacking in an important human value here. Were you a victim of bullying? Some kind of memorable humiliation?

You say my argument has no substance but I think you misattribute it. Not more than one post back I have just asked you to state what past wrongs you believe the students to have committed, which you have completely (and conveniently) ignored in this last unsubstantive post of yours. You have also been unable to substantiate your claim that violence took place. In the meantime, I have stated my position adequately and accurately. I've brought up past and present examples.

On the other hand, you've provided us with... well, nothing compelling at all.

 

[PsychoTropicPuppy]

WillNever, no matter how you put it..whether the staff agreed to do it, or laughed at it, what those boys were doing was abnormal, that's not how you treat people, and they should not be forgiven. Or do you consider it normal? The staff is poor. They have little to no say in such matters. If they'd complain about it then they might get booted. You don't know how much those students have influence, and how much one can achieve with money. Just because those staff members agreed to do it in exchange of a bottle of whiskey doesn't make it okay. They're poor..they have nothing to lose..and the fact that those snobs abused this weakness is unforgivable. End of story.

 

[WillNever]

No one is saying that the kids didn't do a bad thing. The disagreement is over people acting like this is a mortal sin that should brand them for life.

The only correct answer is no, it shouldn't be. Life goes on, as it should for EVERYONE. You have only to pardon yourself for that to happen. The forgiveness of other people is really for their own sake, not yours. But if you believe some very young people should have the course of their whole entire lives negatively affected over this single event, then you and I are simply not of the same species, and that explains why we will never agree on this issue.