beyondtimeandspace,
Thanks for the post, I think I understand where you are going.
You're welcome, and I'm glad you understand.
I was sort of thinking about these sorts of questions.
Ah, it is good that you clarified this. It's always best to know what we are each thinking of when we speak, as much as we can. That is the basis for clear and effective communication. I will answer each of those questions in turn, but I will first say that most of these things aren't really the application of the intellect or will, which we would consider a necessary component for action, but rather, they are things which passively happen to us, rather than things we "do."
Can God learning anything new?
This is a difficult thing to understand. I've had this conversation before, and I sure that my position is valid. Learning, as such, isn't something that we "do," but rather, it is something that happens to us. Oh, we may certainly engage in mental activities which produce learning, we may even engage in physical activities that produce learning. When a new idea is presented to us the idea is conveyed via a communicative operation. Several previously understood terms or concepts are fitted together in such a way as to constitute a different concept. The mental activity that takes place is understanding. While the concept may be new to you, the actual mental processes which went toward realizing that concept in your mind God can do. The actual mental processes that you apply during any new experience or idea are no different than those mental processes you apply when recalling an already-known experience or idea. The difference is that before the mental activities were applied, you didn't have the concept, and afterwards you did. This produces certain emotions, and you begin integrating the new concept into your mental framework. This integration is nothing more than concept-relation. Again, it's a mental activity which God can perform, though under different circumstances (ie, re-relating concepts, rather than relating new ones). The mental activities are all accessible to God, it is the
passive experience which we confuse as our "doing," when we think it is something God cannot do.
Can God be happily surprised?
A simple question, is being surprised something you do, or is it an effect which is produced by realizing that something is true which you did not expect? I would assert that it is
not something you can "do."
While someone might argue that one can intend to forget, I assert, again, that this is not something you do, but something that happens to you. There is no application of will or intellect here, except perhaps when one
wishes to forget. However, I don't think it's true to say there is an "act of forgetting." There may be a intentional application of the mind to avoid thoughts concerning what one wishes to forget, but the actual forgetting is nothing more than an effect caused by the mental avoidance. I would argue that God can choose not to think about something if it so pleased Him, but that He would never forget it no matter how little He thought about it.
Can God even have hope for the future?
I said that most of these questions could be reduced to realizing that these "actions" aren't really actions but things that happen
to you, rather than
by you. This is one that is not. I would argue that God can hope. Naturally, you would point out that hope implies a lack of knowledge about future events, or, at the very least, doubt that an event in the future will take place. While it is certainly true for us that hope implies a lack of knowledge, because we are finite, temporal creatures. We don't know the future, therefore any hope we have of the future is made despite a lack of knowledge. However, I would argue that the essential component of hope is the "will (wish, desire) that an event
will take place. In other words, it is the application of the mind and will as that of desiring an outcome. Our lack of knowledge is secondary to that because it is incidental. God can apply His mind and Will in such a way, though it is doubtful that He ever would since He already knows the future. Can He possibly apply Himself in such a way? Yes. Would He? Doubtful.
Can God read a new book and enjoy the unexpected ending?
I think this is question has two questions in it. First, can God read, and second can God enjoy an unexpected question. To the first, I submit that yes, God can read, for reading is the activation of the imagination, which is stimulated via sense-perception (ie, the eye). While God doesn't have such sense perception as the eye, it is irrelevant, since sense-perception is passive (ie, the eye receives information which is then transmitted to and interpreted by the mind). To the second question, I answer that yes, God could enjoy an unexpected ending. Though the ending would not be unexpected, God could still enjoy it, as God would easily find pleasure in the consistency of it. Though unexpected endings are not expected because the information given is designed to mislead and produce a different expectation in the mind of the reader, the unexpected is almost always (there is no accounting for crappy books,
) consistent with the world the author created. This, God would certainly find pleasure in, just as much as we would. However, of the kind of enjoyment that is experienced merely because it comes from the unexpected, I would say that the emotion is something that is produced in you as an uncontrolled reaction. Rather than being something you're "doing," the enjoyment is something that is happening to you. Of course, who minds that?
That said, enjoyment is a kind of happiness which is being activated in you. Could God intentionally activate such an emotion within Himself? I believe so. Just as there are desires, and even things we know which we do not intentionall desire or know, there are also emotions that we do not intentionally feel, but do anyhow. Likewise, can we intentionally know, desire and feel. We can intentionally elicit emotions within ourselves. I believe God can too. So, any emotion you could possibly feel, I believe God could also feel, except that which many of our emotions are stimulated by something external, God would stimulate them Himself, in Himself.
Can God even enjoy anything in the manner that we would consider joy?
I believe I answered this already.
I think of “feeling” as being a deviation of my own normal mental state to some other mental state - call it happy, sad, surprised, etcetera. Can an omniscience thing have any feelings at all?
Does an omniscience thing even have a mental state or would it be better to just say it has a "state" - that being omniscience. An omniscience state, over say a mental state.
Well, the way I understand "feelings" or emotions is that of an interaction between the intellect and the will. When the intellect recognizes that the truth is aligned with the will, then an emotion results, which is positive. Negative emotions result from a disjunct between truth and the person's will (ie, the person wanted his sports team to win, but the truth is, they lost). When the disjunct is grasped by the intellect, the negative emotion results. When the person's will has been subdued, and desires neither outcome, indifference to the truth is what the person feels. Since God Will and the truth are always both aligned and in disjunct God is in a constant state of delight (or any number of other positive emotions) and sorrow (or any number of other negative emotions).
Concerning the mind of God, you raise valid point. I wonder if you grasp the extent of the point. Generally, we think of the mind in terms of a process, and rightly so. Take idea
x and idea
y and you get idea
z. Our thoughts are processual, one thought proceeding from and into another. Moreover, if God's knowledge is complete, then what is there to think about? An intelligent God who is also omniscient seems conrtadictory.
To understand how it is not one must understand that there are two modes of existence, two modes of thought: complete and incomplete, perfect and imperfect, holistic and sequenced, actual infinity and potential infinity. In psychology, it is recognized that thought can be sequenced or holistic, and that each operation is controlled by opposing hemispheres. The sequenced operation is called logic, and thought here proceeds sequentially (ie, a>b, b>c, ergo a>c). The other is intuition, and thought here proceeds holistically (ie, a>c). While both hemispheres of the brain consider and process the same information, the intuitive side considers all of it at once, and produces an answer, which the logical side considers each set of information individually and procedurally and in time produces an answer.
During Aristotle's discussions, he talked about two modes of the infinite: potential and actual. He said, and quite correctly so, that only potential infinites could possibly exist, because naturally they were finite, but with unlimited potential (ie, they could possibly continue or grow forever). Actual infinites couldn't exist, because attempting to apply them to the real world resulted in too many impossibilities and logical inconsistencies. This is because an actual infinite is a complete set, it is purely holistic. It isn't potentially infinite, but already actually and fully so. Attempting to apply something such as this to a temporal, finite world is itself a logical inconsistency.
However, we understand that the number line is an actual infinite. While the number line isn't an actually existing line, it is, in concept, truly infinite and a complete set. If God is a complete set, if His knowledge is complete, if His power is complete, if His presence is total, if He is pure act (fully actualized, and in no way potential), then I submit that God is an actual infinite. God is truly a holistic being. Therefore, if follows that God's thought is not sequenced, the way we might think about it, but rather it is immediate, simultaneous and holistic. This might raise questions about how God could even react to human actions if His mental state never changes. Well, God's mind isn't all that is purely holistic, His whole being is, so that God experiences all of reality, past, present and future, immediately, simultaneously. This is why God is called eternal, rather than temporal. Temporality is the sequenced passage of real events (real as opposed to possible, for not all possibilities take place). Eternality is the holistic occurrence of real events. So, God's knowledge, God's actions, God's presence, is immediate and at once. While it might seem to us that God does one thing on this day and another the next day, to God, it is all at present, the "Eternal Now." God's reactions to humans is true enough, but not in the way we might think about it.
So, God's omniscience is a mental state, just not in the way we would normally think about it.
Knowing everything. IMHO, would be like living in Hell.
That is because your conception of it includes the passage of time.
Anyway, those were some of my thoughts,
Michael
Thank you for your thoughts. I hope you can appreciate mine.
