A challenge to Atheists

[garbonzo]

There is so much room there to play with the numbers as to make it meaningless.

Please explain so that I can include your answer in this essay (for lack of a better word) I'm compiling.

I love debating. Kind of gives me a high, wondering if this has the same effect on any of you?

101 posts. The highest in this section is 468, at this rate we might catch up. That is if not any of us loses before then If anyone loses, though it would probably be me, because you guys (spidergoat to be specific) are so closed minded.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Sorry, I thought you were talking about another contradiction. I've already explained this contradiction to you, and if you are simply going to repeat yourself I will do so, too:

Just like you guys say matter and energy have always existed, God has always existed.

Which doesn't address the point.

Time is non-existent to God/The Creator.

Also doesn't work. You stated specifically that you understand time to mean what everyone else does.
Time is the only thing that allows change. No time: no change.
Therefore, if there is no time there can be no change. God is trapped and cannot move and cannot alter things - cannot create.
Conversely if god can move and create then time already exists.

The blah blah blah will.

Apparently you ignored entirely what I wrote in reply to that.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Cris,

Then don't suggest it, I haven't. From the physics perspective nothing is ever created or destroyed, there is only matter/energy transformations with no net loss or gains.

Transformations are equal to what is termed 'creation', ie, we are matter/energy, yet we have a distinctive form which comes about through an act of creation.

BBT simply suggests that at some point in the past the universe was much more dense than it is now, it does not suggest or imply there was a point of creation.

But, it follows that the transformation which manifested the universe and everything within it, including it's laws, and, us, is a result of that event.

From the theist creation perspective the universe was magically created from nothing: Now that is a total nonsense, where did all the material come from?

I suppose that would depend upon which ''theist perspective'' you speak of.
My perspective is a scriptoral one, and the scripture makes no mention of
matter and energy being created, only that it is transformed.
If we take genesis, we see that God transformed matter into a man, and transferred His energy to it.

That suggests a god does not exist since an all powerful god would have zero problems communicating excrutiatingly clearly to even the most stupid person.

Who is to say He doesn't?
Who is to say the the scriptures do not represent that communication.
Stupidness doesn't arise through not knowing, it arises through knowing, but
ignoring what we know, for something that suits us at that particular time.

They can be classed in the same way as any fictional or fantasy text. Their only validity rests in whether the claims can be detected in reality, and at this time no such credible evidence of that nature has ever come to light.

Who is to say that reality is what YOU think it is?
Supposing you're wrong?

No that is not what I said. The issue concerned was an infinite regression in response to your point -

So why ask the question; who/what created God.

jan.

 

[spidergoat]

Please explain so that I can include your answer in this essay (for lack of a better word) I'm compiling.

I love debating. Kind of gives me a high, wondering if this has the same effect on any of you?

101 posts. The highest in this section is 468, at this rate we might catch up. That is if not any of us loses before then If anyone loses, though it would probably be me, because you guys (spidergoat to be specific) are so closed minded.

I'm not closed-minded, it's just that I make conclusions based on the evidence or lack of it. I have seen numerous posts about numerology and the Bible, and it seems to me one can figure the numbers in any way one wishes is order to produce a desired result.

 

[garbonzo]

Which doesn't address the point.


Also doesn't work. You stated specifically that you understand time to mean what everyone else does.
Time is the only thing that allows change. No time: no change.
Therefore, if there is no time there can be no change. God is trapped and cannot move and cannot alter things - cannot create.
Conversely if god can move and create then time already exists.


Apparently you ignored entirely what I wrote in reply to that.

Dude, I've already said! Your looking at this through science. I've told you, if you even want a chance to understand, you have to be open-minded. You have to see that science isn't the answer to everything by God's viewpoint. Science was actually created by God. As I've said, a creator doesn't have to abide by the rules he creates. Get it? If you programmed a game with negative gravity, would you be floating right now? No! It's just something you created! You are saying that he needs time to create things, but that is by a human perspective, God is supernatural, he doesn't need to go by that. To US you need time, to God you do not.

 

[garbonzo]

I'm not closed-minded, it's just that I make conclusions based on the evidence or lack of it. I have seen numerous posts about numerology and the Bible, and it seems to me one can figure the numbers in any way one wishes is order to produce a desired result.

Okay, fine. Go with that, then. Now the only point remains is that Jehovah's Witnesses predicted 1914 as a significant date. And in fact, it might be one of the top 5 or at least top 10 most significant dates in history! What can you say to that? (this is my only ammo I have left now )

 

[SciWriter]

Ammo must be really low to call upon the Jehovah Witnesses…

 

[Dywyddyr]

Dude, I've already said! Your looking at this through science. I've told you, if you even want a chance to understand, you have to be open-minded. You have to see that science isn't the answer to everything by God's viewpoint. Science was actually created by God. As I've said, a creator doesn't have to abide by the rules he creates. Get it? If you programmed a game with negative gravity, would you be floating right now? No! It's just something you created! You are saying that he needs time to create things, but that is by a human perspective, God is supernatural, he doesn't need to go by that. To US you need time, to God you do not.

Blah blah. This is, by your own admission, incorrect. You have already stated that by "time" you mean what everyone else does.
Your claim that "god operates outside of time" is meaningless.

Science was actually created by God

Rubbish.

Okay, fine. Go with that, then. Now the only point remains is that Jehovah's Witnesses predicted 1914 as a significant date. And in fact, it might be one of the top 5 or at least top 10 most significant dates in history! What can you say to that? (this is my only ammo I have left now )

Then it's no ammo at all. How many other predictions have been made? Ones that didn't come true? Effectively you're shotgunning and ignoring the misses, then claiming infallibility because of a single hit.

 

[gmilam]

Okay, fine. Go with that, then. Now the only point remains is that Jehovah's Witnesses predicted 1914 as a significant date. And in fact, it might be one of the top 5 or at least top 10 most significant dates in history! What can you say to that? (this is my only ammo I have left now )

So it's been downgraded to a "significant date"...

The JW's have altered the importance of 1914 numerous times. Jesus was supposed to return.
Oops, no Satan was cast down to earth and within this generation Jesus will return.
Oops, this generation's getting a bit old... Uh 1914 - Trust us, it was important... Yawn.

 

[garbonzo]

Blah blah. This is, by your own admission, incorrect. You have already stated that by "time" you mean what everyone else does.
Your claim that "god operates outside of time" is meaningless.


Rubbish.


Then it's no ammo at all. How many other predictions have been made? Ones that didn't come true? Effectively you're shotgunning and ignoring the misses, then claiming infallibility because of a single hit.

First shot was a hit. 1914 was the first date they predicted, and look at what happened. What they predicted would happen was wrong, but they did say it was significant. How could you do that?

 

[Dywyddyr]

First shot was a hit. 1914 was the first date they predicted

Really? They have made no other "predictions" whatsoever?
Reality says you're incorrect:

Failed predictions that were either explicitly stated or strongly implied, particularly linked to dates in 1914, 1918, 1925 and 1975, have led to the alteration or abandonment of some doctrines

# 1877: Christ's kingdom would hold full sway over the earth in 1914; the Jews, as a people, would be restored to God's favour; the "saints" would be carried to heaven.[27]
# 1891: 1914 would be "the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men."[28]
# 1904: "World-wide anarchy" would follow the end of the Gentile Times in 1914.[29]
# 1916: World War I would terminate in Armageddon and the rapture of the "saints".[30]
# 1917: In 1918, Christendom would go down as a system to oblivion and be succeeded by revolutionary governments. God would "destroy the churches wholesale and the church members by the millions." Church members would "perish by the sword of war, revolution and anarchy." The dead would lie unburied. In 1920 all earthly governments would disappear, with worldwide anarchy prevailing.[31]
# 1920: Messiah's kingdom would be established in 1925 and bring worldwide peace. God would begin restoring the earth. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and other faithful patriarchs would be resurrected to perfect human life and be made princes and rulers, the visible representatives of the New Order on earth. Those who showed themselves obedient to God would never die.[32]
# 1922: The anti-typical "jubilee" that would mark God's intervention in earthly affairs would take place "probably the fall" of 1925.[33]
# 1924: God's restoration of Earth would begin "shortly after" October 1, 1925. Jerusalem would be made the world's capital. Resurrected "princes" such as Abel, Noah, Moses and John the Baptist would give instructions to their subjects around the world by radio, and airplanes would transport people to and from Jerusalem from all parts of the globe in just "a few hours".[34]
# 1938: In 1938, Armaggedon was too close for marriage or child bearing.[35]
# 1941: There were only "months" remaining until Armageddon.[36]
# 1942: Armageddon was "immediately before us."[37]
# 1966: It would be 6000 years since man's creation in the fall of 1975 and it would be "appropriate" for Christ's thousand-year reign to begin at that time.[38] Time was "running out, no question about that."[39] The "immediate future" was "certain to be filled with climactic events ... within a few years at most", the final parts of Bible prophecy relating to the "last days" would undergo fulfillment as Christ's reign began.
# 1968: No one could say "with certainty" that the battle of Armageddon would begin in 1975, but time was "running out rapidly" with "earthshaking events" soon to take place.[40] In March 1968 there was a "short period of time left", with "only about ninety months left before 6000 years of man's existence on earth is completed".[41]
# 1969: Human existence would not last long enough for young people to grow old; the world system would end "in a few years." Young Witnesses were told not to bother pursuing tertiary education for this reason.[42]
# 1974: There was just a "short time remaining before the wicked world's end" and Witnesses were commended for selling their homes and property to "finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service."[43]
# 1984: There were "many indications" that "the end" was closer than the end of the 20th century.

Here.

Critics highlight failed predictions that the Watch Tower Society had claimed were "beyond doubt" or "approved by God"

Here.

What they predicted would happen was wrong, but they did say it was significant.

Anyone can make a prediction that gets the year correct (especially if they make a large number and ignore all the incorrect ones) but the details wrong. Such people then leave it up to the gullible believers to "fill in the gaps and "explain" how they were right.

 

[spidergoat]

Okay, fine. Go with that, then. Now the only point remains is that Jehovah's Witnesses predicted 1914 as a significant date. And in fact, it might be one of the top 5 or at least top 10 most significant dates in history! What can you say to that? (this is my only ammo I have left now )

Significant how? Actually they thought it would be the start of Armageddon, and it wasn't. Religious people have been making dire predictions from the Bible even since it was written. 30, 60, 90, 365, 500, 968, 992, 1000, 1033, 1147, 1179, 1205, 1284, 1496, 1524, 1533, 1669, 1689, 1736, 1792, 1794, 1830, 1832, 1843, 1844, 1850, 1881, 1914, 1915, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975, 1994, 2000... Do you get the picture? They were bound to hit on some event sooner or later by chance.

 

[Thoreau]

Significant how? Actually they thought it would be the start of Armageddon, and it wasn't. Religious people have been making dire predictions from the Bible even since it was written. 30, 60, 90, 365, 500, 968, 992, 1000, 1033, 1147, 1179, 1205, 1284, 1496, 1524, 1533, 1669, 1689, 1736, 1792, 1794, 1830, 1832, 1843, 1844, 1850, 1881, 1914, 1915, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975, 1994, 2000... Do you get the picture? They were bound to hit on some event sooner or later by chance.

:thumbsup:

 

[Thoreau]

People really need to get a grip on the language of the bible and realize that even the words "prophet" and "prophesize" do not have anything to do with predicting the future.

The they have been proven to mean, in the original hebrew texts, something along the lines of "poet", "musician", "singer" or "entertainer". It literally has nothing to do with predictions or "prophesy" as we understand the word today.

 

[SciWriter]

Ezekiel 29,30. The land of Egypt will be laid waste by Nebuchadnezzar, and all its people killed and rivers dried up. It will remain uninhabited for forty years.

Um, this did not happen.

 

[garbonzo]

Really? They have made no other "predictions" whatsoever?
Reality says you're incorrect:


Here.

Here.


Anyone can make a prediction that gets the year correct (especially if they make a large number and ignore all the incorrect ones) but the details wrong. Such people then leave it up to the gullible believers to "fill in the gaps and "explain" how they were right.

Reality doesn't show I'm incorrect, weren't all of the first predictions 1914? Yes.

Significant how? Actually they thought it would be the start of Armageddon, and it wasn't. Religious people have been making dire predictions from the Bible even since it was written. 30, 60, 90, 365, 500, 968, 992, 1000, 1033, 1147, 1179, 1205, 1284, 1496, 1524, 1533, 1669, 1689, 1736, 1792, 1794, 1830, 1832, 1843, 1844, 1850, 1881, 1914, 1915, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975, 1994, 2000... Do you get the picture? They were bound to hit on some event sooner or later by chance.

Not all of those dates are from JWs. 1914 was the first date predicted. There was no shotgun effect, here. Yes, I know they thought it was the start of Armageddon, but that doesn't change the fact that they predicted 1914 as a significant date, which it was.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Reality doesn't show I'm incorrect, weren't all of the first predictions 1914? Yes.

Pardon?
How were those predictions in any way "correct"?
Christ's kingdom would hold full sway over the earth in 1914; the Jews, as a people, would be restored to God's favour; the "saints" would be carried to heaven.
1914 would be "the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men.
"World-wide anarchy" would follow the end of the Gentile Times in 1914.

They have made numerous predictions: none of which turned out be true.

 

[gmilam]

Yes, I know they thought it was the start of Armageddon, but that doesn't change the fact that they predicted 1914 as a significant date, which it was.

So what? They were/ARE still wrong.

 

[garbonzo]

Pardon?
How were those predictions in any way "correct"?
Christ's kingdom would hold full sway over the earth in 1914; the Jews, as a people, would be restored to God's favour; the "saints" would be carried to heaven.
1914 would be "the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men.
"World-wide anarchy" would follow the end of the Gentile Times in 1914.

They have made numerous predictions: none of which turned out be true.

I didn't say they were correct. I said I was correct in saying that 1914 was the first predicted year.

None of which turned out to be true except that 1914 was a significant date.

 

[Dywyddyr]

1879 "Christ came in the character of a Bridegroom in 1874.... at the beginning of the Gospel harvest." (Watchtower, Oct 1879, p. 4)
http://www.bible.ca/Jw-Prophecy.htm
For others.