A challenge to Atheists

[garbonzo]

The timescales are in the realm of millions of years for significant changes to occur. There is a vast wealth of information on human evolution on the web and in science textbooks. For those who take the time to understand science the facts are not disputable. There also endless threads on these forums that cover evolution in exhausting detail. If you are truly interested then you will take the time to study. The topic is significant and cannot be meaningfully covered with a short sound bite here.

So that would mean we were on the earth for billions of years? Has a human skeleton even been found from that long ago?

I know some people believe human were only around for a few thousand years or something. I'm not one of them, and I believe that the Bible agrees with science in the fact that we were around for much more than that, but billions of years? I know the Earth itself, probably.

 

[Dywyddyr]

What the... your the one that is not making an ounce of sense. I think you are just not trying to understand this. This is basic Bible teachings. Human perfection does not mean we cannot make mistakes. It's as simple as that.

Then humans aren't "perfect". It's that simple.
And I note you've completely ignored the contradiction I pointed out.
Too difficult for you to resolve?

It is therefore impossible for a god to create time since that would require time to exist to perform such an action.
But, the thing is, he WOULDN'T need time to do this! You are just not thinking, and I think you are not being very open minded.

Why wouldn't he?
Show us that you're capable of thinking as opposed to simple rote repetition of belief.

 

[gmilam]

Okay, tell me where matter and energy came from then? I'm trying to understand you, I really am here...

It has always been. Is now and ever shall be.

 

[garbonzo]

I don't see anywhere in the bible where God explains to them the implications of sin. Why would they consider it a bad thing? Had God explained to them that to sin would mean that they would die and that billions of humans who follow them would also die and have tormeneted lives, then perhaps they might have had some concept of the issue, and be appropriately prepared.

Wow, this is a very well known scripture that I'm surprised you wouldn't know: Genesis (of course) Chapter 2, Verse 15:*And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of E′den to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16:*And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17:*But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

and he knew he was going to make a bad choice, he is omniscient remember, so the choice to allow Adam to exist and go bad was entirely by design. Remember also that where omniscience exists then free will cannot exist. Adam had no choice but to sin since that had been his designed destiny.

You are correct, and yet incorrect. We are not destined by fate. We make our own choices, and Adam and Eve made theirs. If you decided to throw yourself off a bridge tomorrow, you would say that was destiny? No. That's not Bible teaching at all.

Here is what God set before Adam and Eve: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” “And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: ‘From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.’” (Gen. 1:28; 2:16,*17) Would you encourage your children to undertake a project with a marvelous future, knowing from the start that it was doomed to failure? Would you warn them of harm, while knowing that you had planned everything so that they were sure to come to grief? Is it reasonable, then, to attribute such to God?

Matt. 7:11: “If you, although being wicked [or, “bad as you are,” NE], know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father who is in the heavens give good things to those asking him?”
If God foreordained and foreknew Adam’s sin and all that would result from this, it would mean that by creating Adam, God deliberately set in motion all the wickedness committed in human history. He would be the Source of all the wars, the crime, the immorality, the oppression, the lying, the hypocrisy, the disease. But the Bible clearly says: “You are not a God taking delight in wickedness.” (Ps. 5:4) “Anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates.” (Ps. 11:5) “God .*.*. cannot lie.” (Titus 1:2) “From oppression and from violence he [the One designated by God as Messianic King] will redeem their soul, and their blood will be precious in his eyes.” (Ps. 72:14) “God is love.” (1*John 4:8) “He is a lover of righteousness and justice.”—Ps. 33:5.

I've provided a quote from the "Insight on the Scriptures" book at a nopaste if you care for a read: nopaste(dot)dk/p2975

The main point is, that no, God is not Omnipresent.

 

[garbonzo]

It has always been. Is now and ever shall be.

So evolution is not that much different than what i believe, that God/The Creator has always been, is now, and ever shall be.

 

[spidergoat]

Matter and energy came from nothing, because they are balanced by gravitational potential energy.

0=1+(-1)

 

[gmilam]

So evolution is not that much different than what i believe, that God/The Creator has always been, is now, and ever shall be.

What does evolution have to do with matter and energy? Two different subjects entirely.

 

[garbonzo]

Then humans aren't "perfect". It's that simple.
And I note you've completely ignored the contradiction I pointed out.
Too difficult for you to resolve?


Why wouldn't he?
Show us that you're capable of thinking as opposed to simple rote repetition of belief.

Then humans aren't "perfect". It's that simple.​

Congrats! You finally got it! Only a limited perfection is possible.

And I note you've completely ignored the contradiction I pointed out.
Too difficult for you to resolve?​

Are you referring to this?:

If they already knew then eating from the tree would have had no effect. If they didn't know then they can't be blamed.​

I thought I had already said it had no effect, it was only a testament to their disobedience.

Why wouldn't he?
Show us that you're capable of thinking as opposed to simple rote repetition of belief.​

Are you thinking how it could be instead of thinking how it isn't? Maybe then you will find the answer. No one gets anywhere closed minded.

I've already said all I could say about the matter, I don't know how else I can explain it. Maybe an analogy might help:

Just like you guys say matter and energy have always existed, God has always existed.

Time is non-existent to God/The Creator. The human brain is subject to believe whatever others tell it to believe. Say there were babies born in an underground base and someone told the children that the base was all there was to life, and nothing outside, that is what they would believe, correct? So later on, the person decides to tell the children the truth (this is me telling you time doesn't exist to God). But, now 1 child (you) says "This is all there is to life! There is nothing outside! That's not true!" And he says this quite literally, not because he is in shock or anything. Would that make sense? Its the same person who told you that that base was all there was to life! Would you not believe him when he says that it isn't?

In case you still don't get it, maybe something very very simple: A game company says a certain game will be released on July 27th. 1 month later, they say the game has been delayed to December 2nd. Would it make sense to think the game was still coming on July 27th, when the game company already said it has been delayed?

God put in us that there is time, you are currently trying to argue time DOES exist because... that's what you were meant to believe by God/The Creator! Which brings me to my overall theme I've been trying to argue: God does not have to abide by the standards (time) he has set for man.

If this doesn't do it for you, I don't know what will.

 

[garbonzo]

Matter and energy came from nothing, because they are balanced by gravitational potential energy.

0=1+(-1)

Then this is what I say for God/The Creator (hypothetically of course). See where I'm going here?

OR I can go another route:

Where did gravitational potential energy come from?

 

[Yazata]

It's about whether the Bible is inspired by the creator

I don't believe that there was a personal "creator". That whole idea is just anthropomorphic projection in my opinion.

And I don't believe that the Bible has anything to do with whatever the unknown explanations for reality might be. Frankly, I find it kind of ridiculous to think that the unknown explanations for being itself take the form of an ancient Semitic tribal chieftain with an annoying propensity to rant and bluster.

or just a bunch of stories which somehow have a central theme over thousands of years and writers.

That's basically how I look at it. Of course, I don't think that it had thousands of writers. Copyists maybe. Nobody knows how many writers the old testament had or when much of it was actually written. Many parts of it appear to be composite works with more than one author, perhaps based on earlier traditions that once circulated separately. The form that it takes today is the result of the unknown scribal editors that compiled it, and it reflects their purposes in doing that. The collection seems to have been gathered into its existing canonical form sometime in the Persian period, after the captivity.

 

[SciWriter]

Zero is ever the hero:

Einstein as a near traffic fatality…

George Gamow told in his book, ‘My World Line’, how he was conversing with Albert Einstein while walking through Princeton in the 1940s. Gamow casually mentioned that one of his colleagues [Pascual Jordan] had pointed out to him that according to Einstein’s equations a star could be created out of nothing at all, because [at point zero] its negative gravitational energy [mass defect] precisely cancels out [is equal to] its positive mass energy [rest mass].

“Einstein stopped in his tracks,” says Gamow, “and, since we were crossing a street, several cars had to stop to avoid running us down”.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Congrats! You finally got it! Only a limited perfection is possible.

I finally got it? When I am the one that has been pointing your misuse of the word "perfect" all along...

If they already knew then eating from the tree would have had no effect. If they didn't know then they can't be blamed.[/I][/INDENT]
I thought I had already said it had no effect, it was only a testament to their disobedience.

So actually eating from the tree did nothing (despite what the bible says) and god could have punished them at any time beforehand.

Are you thinking how it could be instead of thinking how it isn't? Maybe then you will find the answer. No one gets anywhere closed minded.

Could you write in English please.

Just like you guys say matter and energy have always existed, God has always existed.

Assumption.

Time is non-existent to God/The Creator.

Another assumption.

God put in us that there is time, you are currently trying to argue time DOES exist because... that's what you were meant to believe by God/The Creator!

And another.

Which brings me to my overall theme I've been trying to argue: God does not have to abide by the standards (time) he has set for man.
If this doesn't do it for you, I don't know what will.

In other words you're just babbling in the hopes of shoring up your belief.
What, in your opinion, is time? What does the existence of time mean?

 

[garbonzo]

That's not what the bible says of course. But whatever. All you are claiming here is that they both turned bad for no apparent reason. That screams very clearly that they were the result of a serious design flaw. Why would God create so called perfect beings that he knows full well that as soon as he releases them in the wild they will go bad? Had they truly been created perfect and provided with adequate knowledge, wisdom, and understanding, then it is inconcievable that would make such a poor choice. The story has no credibility, it is purile.

Why is that not what the Bible says? You've already proved you don't entirely know the scriptures, since even a well known Bible scripture has escaped your mind.

 

[garbonzo]

I finally got it? When I am the one that has been pointing your misuse of the word "perfect" all along...


So actually eating from the tree did nothing (despite what the bible says) and god could have punished them at any time beforehand.


Could you write in English please.


Assumption.


Another assumption.


And another.


In other words you're just babbling in the hopes of shoring up your belief.
What, in your opinion, is time? What does the existence of time mean?

I finally got it? When I am the one that has been pointing your misuse of the word "perfect" all along...​

Haha. I've always stated that man's "perfection" was limited. What other word are we going to call it?

So actually eating from the tree did nothing (despite what the bible says) ​

Despite what the Bible says? Assumption.

and god could have punished them at any time beforehand.​

I've already stated that God is not Omnipresent.

Could you write in English please. ​

What don't you get? I was simply stating that it seems you are too close minded, that's why you cannot understand.

Assumption.​

Which is easier to assume? Matter and energy always existed or an Almighty being always existed? But at least it seems you have finally gotten the idea behind God creating time. I know what your going to say because of the "evidence", right? So at the most all we have achieved is a tie. And points to the fact that evolution is not as different to religion as they say.

What, in your opinion, is time? What does the existence of time mean?​

The same as what everyone else believes. I was only arguing the fact that God created time. Or if there is not a God and instead a Creator in another dimension perhaps, then there would be new rules there which would maybe explain everything.

Anyway, if I were to believe evolution were real, I would be very sorely depressed right now, and I don't know how you guys are even still alive right now. It would mean there is nothing to live for, no hope for the future, and when we die, we die forever. That is the most depressing thing I have ever heard in my life. How do you cope with that? Do you at least entertain the fact that there might be a creator somewhere? Whether they are in a different dimension or if they do not effect life here?

 

[gmilam]

Which is easier to assume? Matter and energy always existed or an Almighty being always existed?

Matter and energy always existed. (Occam's razor.)

Anyway, if I were to believe evolution were real, I would be very sorely depressed right now, and I don't know how you guys are even still alive right now. It would mean there is nothing to live for, no hope for the future, and when we die, we die forever. That is the most depressing thing I have ever heard in my life. How do you cope with that? Do you at least entertain the fact that there might be a creator somewhere? Whether they are in a different dimension or if they do not effect life here?

I hear this from theists all the time. Is your current life really so miserable? Must suck being you.

 

[SciWriter]

Matter and energy always existed. (Occam's razor.)

So they were already made, even in a very particular fashion, those few and specific elementals, without ever having been made?

This would be too incomplete, even for Occam's razor that shaved strings of his beard into string theory, which also says that strings just are the way they are.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Haha. I've always stated that man's "perfection" was limited. What other word are we going to call it?

So because your vocabulary is limited you decided to misuse a word?

Despite what the Bible says? Assumption.

Assumption?
Gen 3:6

She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked;

In other words they knew AFTER eating something they hadn't known before.
Gen 3:22

And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil

In other words they DIDN'T know of good and evil before eating.

You appear to be wrong. And drastically so.

I've already stated that God is not Omnipresent.

So what?
And you're wrong on that, too -
Ps. 139:7-12

God is everywhere. We cannot escape His presence.

What don't you get? I was simply stating that it seems you are too close minded, that's why you cannot understand.

No, you're waffling incoherently (and making assumptions).

But at least it seems you have finally gotten the idea behind God creating time.

Nope.

What, in your opinion, is time? What does the existence of time mean?
The same as what everyone else believes. I was only arguing the fact that God created time.

Really? Then you're also introducing a fallacy (and misusing the word "fact"). If time did not exist before god "created" it then he couldn't do anything since time is what allows change.

Do you at least entertain the fact that there might be a creator somewhere?

Entertain the "fact"? Not at all.

 

[garbonzo]

Matter and energy always existed. (Occam's razor.)


I hear this from theists all the time. Is your current life really so miserable? Must suck being you.

I know you probably hear it all the time, it's because it's true. I'm not talking about currently, I'm talking about the future. Currently I am quite well off and I love my job (game designer), but eventually I will die, and what then? That is what is depressing.

 

[spidergoat]

Then this is what I say for God/The Creator (hypothetically of course). See where I'm going here?

OR I can go another route:

Where did gravitational potential energy come from?

I'm not saying they are eternal, just that they required no eternal inputs of energy, meaning they can come from nothing. The early universe was extremely simple and small. It is much more likely for something like this to arise spontaneously than an entity who could conceive of the complexity that would eventually evolve from it and intentionally guide it in that direction. The universe looks unguided.

 

[gmilam]

I know you probably hear it all the time, it's because it's true. I'm not talking about currently, I'm talking about the future. Currently I am quite well off and I love my job (game designer), but eventually I will die, and what then? That is what is depressing.

Then nothing. Don't worry, you won't notice it.