A challenge to Atheists

[garbonzo]

So because your vocabulary is limited you decided to misuse a word?


Assumption?
Gen 3:6
In other words they knew AFTER eating something they hadn't known before.
Gen 3:22
In other words they DIDN'T know of good and evil before eating.

You appear to be wrong. And drastically so.


So what?
And you're wrong on that, too -
Ps. 139:7-12


No, you're waffling incoherently (and making assumptions).


Nope.


Really? Then you're also introducing a fallacy (and misusing the word "fact"). If time did not exist before god "created" it then he couldn't do anything since time is what allows change.


Entertain the "fact"? Not at all.

So because your vocabulary is limited you decided to misuse a word?​

What would you call it other than "limited perfection"?

Assumption?
Gen 3:6
In other words they knew AFTER eating something they hadn't known before.
Gen 3:22​

Their eyes had been opened to the fact that they had sinned.
Because of having a bad conscience after sinning, they had tried to hide from God’s vision among the trees of the garden of Eden. (Gen 3:8)

And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil ​

What scripture is this? I can't find it in my Bible.

So what?
And you're wrong on that, too -
Ps. 139:7-12​

The true God is not omnipresent, for he is spoken of as having a location. (1Ki 8:49; Joh 16:28; Heb 9:24) His throne is in heaven. (Isa 66:1) He is all-powerful, being the Almighty God. (Ge 17:1; Re 16:14) “All things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him,” and he is “the One telling from the beginning the finale.” (Heb 4:13; Isa 46:10,*11; 1Sa 2:3) His power and knowledge extend everywhere, reaching every part of the universe.—2Ch 16:9; Ps 139:7-12 (the scripture you refer to is not evidence of omnipresence); Am 9:2-4.

The prophetic words of Psalm 139:7-12 do not mean that God is omnipresent, that he is personally present in all places at all times. The Scriptures clearly show otherwise. (Deuteronomy 26:15; Hebrews 9:24) Yet, his servants are never beyond his reach. That is true of those whose theocratic assignments have taken them to distant places.

While the Bible always refers to God as having a specific dwelling place, it often speaks of his holy spirit in ubiquitous terms. “Where can I go from your spirit, and where can I run away from your face?” asked the psalmist David. (Psalm 139:7) Some have been confused by such references and may conclude that God is omnipresent. Yet, when considering the context of this and other texts, it becomes clear that Jehovah’s holy spirit—or power in action—can be extended from his fixed location to any place in the material universe.

Like a father’s hand extending down to console and support his children, Jehovah’s hand—or holy spirit—can extend to any part of the spiritual realm or the physical universe to accomplish Jehovah’s purpose. Hence, the psalmist could say: “Were I to take the wings of the dawn, that I might reside there in the most remote sea, there, also, your own hand would lead me and your right hand would lay hold of me.”—Psalm 139:9,*10.

No, you're waffling incoherently (and making assumptions).​

To the fact that you were too close minded to see that time was created by God, (as to which I was referring you were closed minded about) was correct. You finally got it after several illustrations.

Nope.​

Yes you do, don't play games with me. You'd have to be as dumb as a rock to not get it with all those illustrations even.

Really? Then you're also introducing a fallacy (and misusing the word "fact"). If time did not exist before god "created" it then he couldn't do anything since time is what allows change.​

I didn't misuse the word fact. I said I was arguing (keyword) for it to be a fact. If you are simply going to repeat yourself I will do so, too:

Just like you guys say matter and energy have always existed, God has always existed.

Time is non-existent to God/The Creator. The human brain is subject to believe whatever others tell it to believe. Say there were babies born in an underground base and someone told the children that the base was all there was to life, and nothing outside, that is what they would believe, correct? So later on, the person decides to tell the children the truth (this is me telling you time doesn't exist to God). But, now 1 child (you) says "This is all there is to life! There is nothing outside! That's not true!" And he says this quite literally, not because he is in shock or anything. Would that make sense? Its the same person who told you that that base was all there was to life! Would you not believe him when he says that it isn't?

In case you still don't get it, maybe something very very simple: A game company says a certain game will be released on July 27th. 1 month later, they say the game has been delayed to December 2nd. Would it make sense to think the game was still coming on July 27th, when the game company already said it has been delayed?

God put in us that there is time, you are currently trying to argue time DOES exist because... that's what you were meant to believe by God/The Creator! Which brings me to my overall theme I've been trying to argue: God does not have to abide by the standards (time) he has set for man.

If this doesn't do it for you, I don't know what will.

 

[Dywyddyr]

What would you call it other than "limited perfection"?

Because the phrase is an oxymoron.

Their eyes had been opened to the fact that they had sinned.
Because of having a bad conscience after sinning, they had tried to hide from God’s vision among the trees of the garden of Eden. (Gen 3:8)

So what?

What scripture is this? I can't find it in my Bible.

The slight clue was in the words Gen 3:22. KJV, you may have heard of it.

The true God is not omnipresent, for he is spoken of as having a location. (1Ki 8:49; Joh 16:28; Heb 9:24) His throne is in heaven. (Isa 66:1) He is all-powerful, being the Almighty God. (Ge 17:1; Re 16:14) “All things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him,” and he is “the One telling from the beginning the finale.” (Heb 4:13; Isa 46:10,*11; 1Sa 2:3) His power and knowledge extend everywhere, reaching every part of the universe.—2Ch 16:9; Ps 139:7-12

So it's one more example of the bible contradicting itself.

(the scripture you refer to is not evidence of omnipresence); Am 9:2-4.
The prophetic words of Psalm 139:7-12 do not mean that God is omnipresent

Ah right. Because when it says "God is everywhere" it doesn't really mean that. I get it.

To the fact that you were too close minded to see that time was created by God, (as to which I was referring you were closed minded about) was correct. You finally got it after several illustrations.

Still wrong. And I still disagree. You haven't shown that this is so. And you are still neglecting to address the conflict.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

Matter and energy came from nothing, because they are balanced by gravitational potential energy.

0=1+(-1)

Spidy you are closing in on it . More to the -1 and the +1 of zero than one might think. Consider the -1 and the +1 of 6 . The first interrupter of the -1 and +1 in the 6n number line all resolving at 0. Now consider the next pairing of 11 and 13 the -1 and +1 of 12 and how that resolves at zero . Multiply all the pairings that follow and do reduction math and see what you get . Then before you do reduction add the sum of the pairings by it self to a string of about 9 times and do reduction math on that and see what you get ? example 5x7=35
( those damn 57,53s haunt Me) 35,70,105,140................ do it with all pairings and then reduce by adding up each digit example 3+5=8 7+0=7 and so forth. Do it with all the pairings of the 6n line Like 11x13 , 17x19, 23x25, 29x31 and so forth and see what you get?

 

[Dywyddyr]

and see what you get?

Inane drivel?

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

Inane drivel?

You seem to know the bible pretty good ?

 

[spidergoat]

Time is non-existent to God/The Creator

That is a statement of faith, and ultimately nonsensical. The creation took time by Christianity's own account, 6 days.

 

[SciWriter]

Spider and I have joined our different formulas to show the whole truth:

1 + (-1) = 0 = 1 + (-1)

Now we have stuff going out of and back into existence.

 

[Thoreau]

You seem to know the bible pretty good ?

Well.

 

[Thoreau]

Ok, so I was/am a born and raised christian.

No one is ever born with a religion. Everyone is born religionless.

 

[garbonzo]

Okay guys, I'll get back to replying to you guys in a bit or tomorrow, but right now I want to go on a new topic. So far you guys have countered almost everything I say so far (at least until I hear back from "HQ"), which is good because it is getting me closer to the truth, whether it is supporting religion or not. Currently the only thing I'm hanging on is this prophecy. As Janus has said:

And how do you know that those "Prophecies" were actually written before the said events. It is always easy to go back and insert or rewrite prophecies "after the fact".​

This is very true. So what you would need is prophecies that have came true AFTER the Bible was translated, correct? SciWriter said:

It was hidden there by Jeremiah immediately before the Neo-Babylonian destruction of the temple in 586 B.C. ​

I would like to know your counter for this: 586 B.C. was not the correct date of Jerusalem's fall. It is rather 607 B.C.E. If it wasn't 607, then that would prove 1914 wasn't the time Satan and the demons were cast out of heaven. This is significant, because what happened in 1914? Was it not the start of World War I? So in effect, the Bible has foretold the start of World War I!

This website details why 607 is true:
jehovahsjudgment(dot)co(dot)uk/607/


In Nebuchadnezzar’s personal experience of the vision’s fulfillment the “seven times” were evidently seven years, during which he became mad, with symptoms like those of lycanthropy, abandoning his throne to eat grass like a beast in the field. (Da 4:31-36) Notably, the Biblical description of the exercise of world domination by the Gentile powers is presented through the figure of beasts in opposition to the holy people of God and their “Prince of princes.” (Compare Da 7:2-8, 12, 17-26; 8:3-12, 20-25; Re 11:7; 13:1-11; 17:7-14.) Concerning the word “times” (from Aramaic ʽid‧dan′), as used in Daniel’s prophecy, lexicographers show it here to mean “years.” (See Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros, by L.*Koehler and W.*Baumgartner, Leiden, 1958, p. 1106; A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, by Brown, Driver, and Briggs, 1980, p. 1105; Lexicon Linguae Aramaicae Veteris Testamenti, edited by E.*Vogt, Rome, 1971, p. 124.) The duration of a year as so used is indicated to be 360 days, inasmuch as three and a half times are shown to equal “a thousand two hundred and sixty days” at Revelation 12:6,*14. (Compare also Re 11:2,*3.) “Seven times,” according to this count, would equal 2,520 days. That a specific number of days may be used in the Bible record to represent prophetically an equivalent number of years can be seen by reading the accounts at Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6. Only by applying the formula there expressed of “a day for a year” to the “seven times” of this prophecy can the vision of Daniel chapter*4 have significant fulfillment beyond the day of now extinct Nebuchadnezzar, as the evidence thus far presented gives reason to expect. They therefore represent 2,520 years.

It is a historical fact worth noting that, on the basis of the points and evidence above presented, the March 1880 edition of the Watch Tower magazine identified the year 1914 as the time for the close of “the appointed times of the nations” (and the end of the lease of power granted the Gentile rulers). This was some 34 years before the arrival of that year and the momentous events it initiated. In the August 30, 1914, edition of The World, a leading New York newspaper at that time, a feature article in the paper’s Sunday magazine section commented on this as follows: “The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the ‘International Bible Students’ .*.*. have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914.”

The events that took place from and after the year 1914*C.E. are well-known history to all, beginning with the great war that erupted, the first world war in mankind’s history and the first to be fought over the issue, not of the domination of Europe alone, nor of Africa, nor of Asia, but of the domination of the world.—Lu 21:7-33; Re 11:15-18;

This might explain it better:

1914—A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy

DECADES in advance, Bible students proclaimed that there would be significant developments in 1914. What were these, and what evidence points to 1914 as such an important year?

As recorded at Luke 21:24, Jesus said: “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations [“the times of the Gentiles,” King James Version] are fulfilled.” Jerusalem had been the capital city of the Jewish nation—the seat of rulership of the line of kings from the house of King David. (Psalm 48:1,*2) However, these kings were unique among national leaders. They sat on “Jehovah’s throne” as representatives of God himself. (1*Chronicles 29:23) Jerusalem was thus a symbol of Jehovah’s rulership.

How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be “trampled on by the nations”? This happened in 607*B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians. “Jehovah’s throne” became vacant, and the line of kings who descended from David was interrupted. (2*Kings 25:1-26) Would this ‘trampling’ go on forever? No, for the prophecy of Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem’s last king, Zedekiah: “Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. .*.*. It will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him.” (Ezekiel 21:26,*27) The one who has “the legal right” to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32,*33) So the ‘trampling’ would end when Jesus became King.

When would that grand event occur? Jesus showed that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time. The account in Daniel chapter*4 holds the key to knowing how long that period would last. It relates a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. He saw an immense tree that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An angel declared: “Let seven times pass over it.”—Daniel 4:10-16.

In the Bible, trees are sometimes used to represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5) So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God’s rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem’ would be temporary—a period of “seven times.” How long a period is that?

Revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal “a thousand two hundred and sixty days.” “Seven times” would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. But the Gentile nations did not stop ‘trampling’ on God’s rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem’s fall. Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers*14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of “a day for a year,” the “seven times” would cover 2,520 years.

The 2,520 years began in October*607*B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October*1914. At that time, “the appointed times of the nations” ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King.—Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13,*14.

Just as Jesus predicted, his “presence” as heavenly King has been marked by dramatic world developments—war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences. (Matthew 24:3-8; Luke 21:11) Such developments bear powerful testimony to the fact that 1914 indeed marked the birth of God’s heavenly Kingdom and the beginning of “the last days” of this present wicked system of things.—2*Timothy 3:1-5.

 

[Thoreau]

You've got to be kidding me.

 

[garbonzo]

No one is ever born with a religion. Everyone is born religionless.

Good point. I'm so hungry I can eat a cow.

You've got to be kidding me.

Wow, I've actually got someone on SciForums speechless? That's a first.

 

[garbonzo]

That is a statement of faith, and ultimately nonsensical. The creation took time by Christianity's own account, 6 days.

Which was figurative, and not a literal 6 days, but that's not the point. Did you know the first Chapter in the Bible at least, if not the whole thing, was written from mankind's perspective? Would it not make sense that he would use human terms, such as time so that we would understand, also?

 

[spidergoat]

There is so much room there to play with the numbers as to make it meaningless.

 

[spidergoat]

Which was figurative, and not a literal 6 days, but that's not the point. Did you know the first Chapter in the Bible at least, if not the whole thing, was written from mankind's perspective? Would it not make sense that he would use human terms, such as time so that we would understand, also?

No, because God could easily have said 7 score times 7 times 7 times 7, etc... Knowing that we in the future would be able to do math.

You are telling me that the numbers in Genesis are figurative, while the numbers in your prophecy are literal? This is the kind of inconsistency that drive me nuts.

 

[garbonzo]

Because the phrase is an oxymoron.


So what?


The slight clue was in the words Gen 3:22. KJV, you may have heard of it.


So it's one more example of the bible contradicting itself.


Ah right. Because when it says "God is everywhere" it doesn't really mean that. I get it.


Still wrong. And I still disagree. You haven't shown that this is so. And you are still neglecting to address the conflict.

Ah right. Because when it says "God is everywhere" it doesn't really mean that. I get it.​

God's holy spirit is everywhere, not God himself. As you should know, God is a spirit, think of a remote control helicopter. Your standing in 1 spot, but controlling something in another. Now if you had 100 hands and 50 remote controls, you would be controlling 50 helicopters, yet you are in the same spot, right? As God is Almighty, he doesn't need hands, of course, he is just controlling his holy spirit, energy, whatever you want to call it.

I just saw Battle:LA, in it there was a central command center that sent info and controlled all the drones. Something like that.

Still wrong. And I still disagree. You haven't shown that this is so. And you are still neglecting to address the conflict. ​

What conflict? I've asked you to repeat it, but you haven't done so. You were actually ignoring my response to your conflict.

 

[Dywyddyr]

God's holy spirit is everywhere, not God himself.

Ah right. Because when it says "God is everywhere" it doesn't really mean that. I get it.

As you should know, God is a spirit

No, I don't know that. And neither do you.

I just saw Battle:LA, in it there was a central command center that sent info and controlled all the drones. Something like that.

Do you have someone think up this drivel for you, or is it self-generated?

What conflict? I've asked you to repeat it, but you haven't done so.

This one:
If time did not exist before god "created" it then he couldn't do anything since time is what allows change.

You were actually ignoring my response to your conflict.

That would be false: you claimed (erroneously) that I now see things your way.

 

[garbonzo]

No, because God could easily have said 7 score times 7 times 7 times 7, etc... Knowing that we in the future would be able to do math.

You are telling me that the numbers in Genesis are figurative, while the numbers in your prophecy are literal? This is the kind of inconsistency that drive me nuts.

Are you saying the Bible has to be either ALL figurative, or ALL literal? By that thinking you would be saying, since some of English has figurative phrases, such as the one I've said above, ALL of the language would need to be figurative. This is the kind of inconsistency that drive me nuts.

Anyway, here is the explanation for why the 7 days weren't literal (in fact, the 7th day is still going on today):

How Long Were the Creative Days?

What about the length of the creative days? Were they literally 24 hours long? Some claim that because Moses—the writer of Genesis—later referred to the day that followed the six creative days as a model for the weekly Sabbath, each of the creative days must be literally 24 hours long. (Exodus 20:11) Does the wording of Genesis support this conclusion?

No, it does not. The fact is that the Hebrew word translated “day” can mean various lengths of time, not just a 24-hour period. For example, when summarizing God’s creative work, Moses refers to all six creative days as one day. (Genesis 2:4) In addition, on the first creative day, “God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night.” (Genesis 1:5) Here, only a portion of a 24-hour period is defined by the term “day.” Certainly, there is no basis in Scripture for arbitrarily stating that each creative day was 24 hours long.

How long, then, were the creative days? The Bible does not say; however, the wording of Genesis chapters*1 and 2 indicates that considerable lengths of time were involved.

How Long Is a Genesis “Day”?

4 Many consider the word “day” used in Genesis chapter*1 to mean 24 hours. However, in Genesis 1:5 God himself is said to divide day into a smaller period of time, calling just the light portion “day.” In Genesis 2:4 all the creative periods are called one “day”: “This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day [all six creative periods] that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.”

5 The Hebrew word yohm, translated “day,” can mean different lengths of time. Among the meanings possible, William Wilson’s Old Testament Word Studies includes the following: “A day; it is frequently put for time in general, or for a long time; a whole period under consideration .*.*. Day is also put for a particular season or time when any extraordinary event happens.”1 This last sentence appears to fit the creative “days,” for certainly they were periods when extraordinary events were described as happening. It also allows for periods much longer than 24 hours.

6 Genesis chapter*1 uses the expressions “evening” and “morning” relative to the creative periods. Does this not indicate that they were 24 hours long? Not necessarily. In some places people often refer to a man’s lifetime as his “day.” They speak of “my father’s day” or “in Shakespeare’s day.” They may divide up that lifetime “day,” saying “in the morning [or dawn] of his life” or “in the evening [or twilight] of his life.” So ‘evening and morning’ in Genesis chapter*1 does not limit the meaning to a literal 24 hours.

7 “Day” as used in the Bible can include summer and winter, the passing of seasons. (Zechariah 14:8) “The day of harvest” involves many days. (Compare Proverbs 25:13 and Genesis 30:14.) A thousand years are likened to a day. (Psalm 90:4; 2*Peter 3:8,*10) “Judgment Day” covers many years. (Matthew 10:15; 11:22-24) It would seem reasonable that the “days” of Genesis could likewise have embraced long periods of time—millenniums.

Do you guys ever sleep? LOL Or even leave this forum? Or are you subscribed to the thread or something?

 

[garbonzo]

Ah right. Because when it says "God is everywhere" it doesn't really mean that. I get it.


No, I don't know that. And neither do you.


Do you have someone think up this drivel for you, or is it self-generated?


This one:
If time did not exist before god "created" it then he couldn't do anything since time is what allows change.


That would be false: you claimed (erroneously) that I now see things your way.

This one:

If time did not exist before god "created" it then he couldn't do anything since time is what allows change.​

​

Sorry, I thought you were talking about another contradiction. I've already explained this contradiction to you, and if you are simply going to repeat yourself I will do so, too:

Just like you guys say matter and energy have always existed, God has always existed.

Time is non-existent to God/The Creator. The human brain is subject to believe whatever others tell it to believe. Say there were babies born in an underground base and someone told the children that the base was all there was to life, and nothing outside, that is what they would believe, correct? So later on, the person decides to tell the children the truth (this is me telling you time doesn't exist to God). But, now 1 child (you) says "This is all there is to life! There is nothing outside! That's not true!" And he says this quite literally, not because he is in shock or anything. Would that make sense? Its the same person who told you that that base was all there was to life! Would you not believe him when he says that it isn't?

In case you still don't get it, maybe something very very simple: A game company says a certain game will be released on July 27th. 1 month later, they say the game has been delayed to December 2nd. Would it make sense to think the game was still coming on July 27th, when the game company already said it has been delayed?

God put in us that there is time, you are currently trying to argue time DOES exist because... that's what you were meant to believe by God/The Creator! Which brings me to my overall theme I've been trying to argue: God does not have to abide by the standards (time) he has set for man.

If this doesn't do it for you, I don't know what will.

 

[garbonzo]

I'm not saying they are eternal, just that they required no eternal inputs of energy, meaning they can come from nothing. The early universe was extremely simple and small. It is much more likely for something like this to arise spontaneously than an entity who could conceive of the complexity that would eventually evolve from it and intentionally guide it in that direction. The universe looks unguided.

I didn't say they were eternal. I just asked where it came from. If it came from nothing, I can argue so did the Creator/God.