90 year old man (and two pastors) arrested for feeding the homeless

[youreyes]

If you believe the message that Jesus preached was "move the poor out of the city" and "people who feed the poor are evil" then you are reading the Bible with some very strange preconceptions.

Reminds me of someone on another forum who once claimed "mess with me or my dogs and I will f***ing kill you. That's why I have guns and I'm not afraid to use them. That's what Jesus taught; do unto others and all that." Just goes to show you that you can read whatever you want into the Bible.

my "dogs" is justice for all. Not just the homeless but also the wellbeing of the citizens who work and are part of the Ft. Lauderdale community.

I say, move these "homeless" to the hills, and there they can have their food be given by Abbotts. And spread the message to them that they can live better by sharing.

 

[cosmictraveler]

They should build a rather large complex and divide the people into small areas that they seem to fit into. The alcoholics in one place the drug addicts in another the poor and needy in another area and the rest wherever they should be placed, This way they can get the help they need, mill about inside the complex wherever they want to roam to except into others areas. In this complex they should receive the help they need for whatever condition they have. This will help everyone except those not wanting help but they will stay there as well. It would be like a mental health hospital.

 

[billvon]

I say, move these "homeless" to the hills, and there they can have their food be given by Abbotts.

So as long as someone else feeds the poor in a place where you can't see them, you're happy. You don't have to do or see anything.

And spread the message to them that they can live better by sharing.

But somewhere else, not where they live. If they share where they live they are evil.

 

[youreyes]

So as long as someone else feeds the poor in a place where you can't see them, you're happy. You don't have to do or see anything.

But somewhere else, not where they live. If they share where they live they are evil.

It is not about feeding them somewhere else, it is about directing them on the right path. The "hill" is the place where they are taught and rewarded for listening by food.

 

[youreyes]

They should build a rather large complex ... This will help everyone except those not wanting help but they will stay there as well. It would be like a mental health hospital.

Hey Cosmic you are in Florida, what do you think should be done with homeless? Should we just go ahead and feed them right on street?

 

[Liebling]

Hey Cosmic you are in Florida, what do you think should be done with homeless? Should we just go ahead and feed them right on street?

They weren't "right on the street" they were in a government owned public park.

This "hill" you describe sounds a lot like how we treat animals, reward them with treats. Except that if we don't feed our dogs and cats that didn't ask to be born or adopted, we can be arrested for animal cruelty.

So your proposal is really to treat the homeless like animals. Train them and make them work for their food. Hmm.

 

[cosmictraveler]

Hey Cosmic you are in Florida, what do you think should be done with homeless? Should we just go ahead and feed them right on street?

I'll repeat an earlier thread.

They should build a rather large complex and divide the people into small areas that they seem to fit into. The alcoholics in one place the drug addicts in another the poor and needy in another area and the rest wherever they should be placed, This way they can get the help they need, mill about inside the complex wherever they want to roam to except into others areas. In this complex they should receive the help they need for whatever condition they have. This will help everyone except those not wanting help but they will stay there as well. It would be like a mental health hospital.

 

[OnlyMe]

I cannot believe I am even posting here. I don't usually even check the titles on threads in this part of the form...

1) Utah's system of providing homes to the homeless, shows that the government saves overall and should be implemented in Ft. Lauderdale
2) The current feeding on the streets by Mr. Abott needs to stopped and immedeately a food dispersion system under control of the city government needs to be set up, this system would keep track of where the homeless are and provide them with basic services like washing, food, and sleeping bag. All funded by parts from city government and a Project Fund of citizens who are concerned.
3) The homeless will have a clear path to getting back on track. Getting out of debt or solving their addiction problems. Or finding a job.

Those who are addicted or mentally ill and are not changing by specific time, should be removed from the streets all-together, they are a hazard to society.

Your solutions are not universal solutions and in some cases, no solution at all.

To your last comment; I live in California, where a Governor and later President, named Regan opened the doors of our mental hospitals and sent all of those who were deemed at the time of no imminent threat, onto the streets and homeless, with no program to help them reintegrate... As to the addiction issue, aside from alcohol, addiction is an issue of illicit supply, which is entirely under government control.., and obviously out of control as addressed by local, state and federal law enforcement.

Some of your solutions above may be of some value, if they were even considered by our government as a whole. That said on your second point, until and unless our governments, local, state and federal do take action to provide for those in need, it remains in the hands of privately funded food kitchens and individuals.., like Mr. Abott, to do the job you say the community as a whole, local, state and federal, should be doing. To believe that before the later is in place and functioning, it is reasonable to condemn and/or criminalize the former, is delusional.

To your first point, Utah's home for the homeless option, does not face the same homeless issues, as found in warmer year round climates, like S. California and Florida. Homeless move or migrate seasonally, to these areas specifically because the winters are survivable without significant shelter. Still any homes for the homeless program, undertaken in areas of high density homeless populations, would in itself require some police supervision. With the price of property and housing in Calif. and Florida the way it is, the only economically practical approach would involve high density housing complexes.., where the crowding involved creates as many problems as it might be intended to solve.

Your third point is no more than talk. There is no mechanism suggested to reach the goals you present. The problems of the homeless are more varried than you imagine. As has been mentioned earlier in the thread somewhere between 40 and 50%, I think a bit higher in reality, are aged out of the work force market, children, the mentally ill, and/or severly physically disabled. The mentally ill could be addressed by reopening the doors to long term care, state funded mental hospitals. The old and severly disabled are a social responsibility of the society as a whole. Private resources are insufficient to fully address their issues, so once again it is an unaddressed local, state and/or federal issue. These people don't vote, so they are not represented. The children.., our child welfare laws are sadly deficient and too often, at least where I live, subject to the personal opinions and biases of sometimes a single social worker.

I give nothing outright to panhandlers, other than to offer a meal at a local resturante, or on occasion, by asking what they need from the store I am about to enter, and actually buying the groceries or baby supplies they list. Yes, once when I asked the woman asked for diapers and formula, nothing for herself. More than half of the time panhandlers turn down the hot meal... Almost as often there is nothing they need from the store. It's more profitable to spend the time panhandling. I do donate to food programs both locally and nationally, but I am really unsure how much that really helps.

A final word... What charity there is both private and in the way of food stamps and low income housing, is of more benefit to those who have, than it is to those who have not. If you turned all of those who are currently receiving welfare, food stamps and other government support, out onto the streets and followed the Florida example of outlawing what little private assistance there is, it would not be long before you would see an increase in crime, against the haves and even potentially anarchy. Our law enforcement structure is not capable of handling that kind of social problem. As long as social welfare programs keep enough of those who have nothing else to fall back on, returning for the next check, they are vested in the system as poor as it may be. And thus remain a relatively silent subset of the population.

 

[cosmictraveler]

A final word... What charity there is both private and in the way of food stamps and low income housing, is of more benefit to those who have, than it is to those who have not. If you turned all of those who are currently receiving welfare, food stamps and other government support, out onto the streets and followed the Florida example of outlawing what little private assistance there is, it would not be long before you would see an increase in crime, against the haves and even potentially anarchy.

The total budget from the Federal government for welfare including food stamps and all the rest is about 1 % of the entire budget.

I lived next door to a section 8 house and every 3 or 4 months the tenants were removed for many reasons mostly very bad ways they kept the house up. Their children were also very troublesome and were in trouble with the neighbors who lived in my community for over 20 years. Low income people being given a very nice 4 bedroom home for about 100 a month always , it seems, leads to many troubles for the tenants don't have much money, many children and never keep the house or grounds up.

 

[Kittamaru]

Not contempt but irony. You can't prevent alcoholics or drug addicts from not doing that kind of thing without allot of money, time and medial trained personnel. So how do you propose to do all of those things then still believe that those people you helped will all turn out "normally functioning"? You are talking about billions of dollars to do that and again you will not "cure" all those who have problems even after all that time and money is spent.

There are millions of people that also need daily medicines to keep them "balanced" so as to be functioning at a good level so they can hold down a job. That again is going to have problems for many times people that are given medications stop using them and never want to use them again but tell their doctors that they are.

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot force it to drink...

I don't care HOW MUCH MONEY you spend on alcoholics/drug addicts/ etc - unless they WANT to change, they won't... however, not helping anyone because you might "enable" the minority is far, far worse.

you know what, all these homeless got sobbing stories of how they got abused by their fathers, or someone in their family died, or their house burned out. Well it's all excuses. I don't make excuses, I work on getting out of whatever ***t I get into, without any government or old 90 year old men's help. There are many ways to salvation without begging for food scrams. Sure I could have done the same thing this woman did, told about my lifes miseries and stood looooooong hours in soup line and suffered and suffered and suffered and bragged about it to everyone who listened, and did absolutely nothing to improve my life.

... don't take this the wrong way... but what a sad and bitter outlook you have of the world. Yes, there are homeless out there with "sob stories"... then there are some that legitimately have been the victim of circumstance.

A few months ago, a local family here in Harrisburg was left homeless after their house burned down... when I say burned down, I mean it went up like a Roman Candle because of a gas main leak. Nothing was salvageable, including their family car in the garage... they lost everything except their lives. This left a man, woman, and three children without a place to go. To top it off, the man had lost his job three weeks prior due to budget cuts (had been a worker in the PA Real Estate Licensing Commission). The wife was, if memory serves, a teacher, who's income has been slashed due to pay freezes the last several years (as well as a pay cut two years ago... thanks Tom Corbett). They had insurance, but it only covered the depreciated "current market value" of the house and their possessions - while it was enough to be able to clear the rubble and rebuild a small house on their plot of land, it didn't cover much more than that, much less a place to stay while the home was being rebuilt, replacing all the food and clothing that was lost, the car, etc.

In the end, the community stepped up and did a fundraiser to help get them back on their feet - a used but decent condition car was donated to them, and money was raised to cover a short-term rental while the house was built.

If the community hadn't stepped up... well, I don't know what they would have done.

 

[billvon]

A few months ago, a local family here in Harrisburg was left homeless after their house burned down... when I say burned down, I mean it went up like a Roman Candle because of a gas main leak. Nothing was salvageable, including their family car in the garage... they lost everything except their lives. This left a man, woman, and three children without a place to go. To top it off, the man had lost his job three weeks prior due to budget cuts (had been a worker in the PA Real Estate Licensing Commission). The wife was, if memory serves, a teacher, who's income has been slashed due to pay freezes the last several years (as well as a pay cut two years ago... thanks Tom Corbett). They had insurance, but it only covered the depreciated "current market value" of the house and their possessions - while it was enough to be able to clear the rubble and rebuild a small house on their plot of land, it didn't cover much more than that, much less a place to stay while the home was being rebuilt, replacing all the food and clothing that was lost, the car, etc.

In the end, the community stepped up and did a fundraiser to help get them back on their feet - a used but decent condition car was donated to them, and money was raised to cover a short-term rental while the house was built.

If the community hadn't stepped up... well, I don't know what they would have done.

YourEyes proposed a simple solution to the above problem - relocate them to a hill somewhere outside town, and just hope someone feeds them. That way no one will see them and their problems.

 

[Kittamaru]

YourEyes proposed a simple solution to the above problem - relocate them to a hill somewhere outside town, and just hope someone feeds them. That way no one will see them and their problems.

We did something like that a few times in our history...

Once was with a people we refer to collectively as Native Americans - in order to prevent skirmishes and fighting, we "resettled" them to specific locations...

Then again, during WWII, with those of mixed Japanese/American heritage (or, really, any Japanese heritage) - we put them in little "camps" for "their and our protection" during the war...

I think it goes without saying how both of those ended...?

 

[OnlyMe]

The total budget from the Federal government for welfare including food stamps and all the rest is about 1 % of the entire budget.

I lived next door to a section 8 house and every 3 or 4 months the tenants were removed for many reasons mostly very bad ways they kept the house up. Their children were also very troublesome and were in trouble with the neighbors who lived in my community for over 20 years. Low income people being given a very nice 4 bedroom home for about 100 a month always , it seems, leads to many troubles for the tenants don't have much money, many children and never keep the house or grounds up.

Low income is not the issue, your neighborhood faces. There are many many low income families or one parent families that would do just fine, in any neighborhood. There are and always will be some who game the system or have come up through a bad system such that they are not going to integrate well with society generally. In California an owner of a house as you describe is not required by law to register it as section 8 housing. Most Section 8 housing winds up being either, high density apartment complexes or older houses that are hard to rent out at full market value without a government subsidy. It is not the tenenats you should be complaining about and to, it is the owner who has chosen to go Section 8, rather than the general rental market... And who does have some control over who he/she rents to.

The point I was trying to make above was about the problem(s) society would face, were all of those who do receive some aid, just turned out on the streets with no alternatives or other support. People with nothing to lose... Whatever aid there is, no matter how insuficient, gives those who receive it a vested interest in continuing to receive it.., and thus in not rocking the boat to the tipping point... And reduces the exposure of those who don't wish to be exposed to the results of the poverty, to that poverty. We don't live in a police state or dictatorship.., and existing civilian law enforcement, is not up to the task of dealing with the problems there would be. They have a hard time dealing with things as it is. Things would not wind up being a local neighborhood problem but a larger community problem.

 

[cosmictraveler]

Low income is not the issue, your neighborhood faces. There are many many low income families or one parent families that would do just fine, in any neighborhood. There are and always will be some who game the system or have come up through a bad system such that they are not going to integrate well with society generally. In California an owner of a house as you describe is not required by law to register it as section 8 housing. Most Section 8 housing winds up being either, high density apartment complexes or older houses that are hard to rent out at full market value without a government subsidy. It is not the tenenats you should be complaining about and to, it is the owner who has chosen to go Section 8, rather than the general rental market... And who does have some control over who he/she rents to.

The point I was trying to make above was about the problem(s) society would face, were all of those who do receive some aid, just turned out on the streets with no alternatives or other support. People with nothing to lose... Whatever aid there is, no matter how insuficient, gives those who receive it a vested interest in continuing to receive it.., and thus in not rocking the boat to the tipping point... And reduces the exposure of those who don't wish to be exposed to the results of the poverty, to that poverty. We don't live in a police state or dictatorship.., and existing civilian law enforcement, is not up to the task of dealing with the problems there would be. They have a hard time dealing with things as it is. Things would not wind up being a local neighborhood problem but a larger community problem.

If a low income family earns less than $20,000.00 a year and has 4 children to support how can they ever manage to run a 4 bedroom home for the electricity bill is over 300.00 a month, at least 400.00 a month for food, then there lawn care which the tenants never do so the grounds just die off and look like shit. The home never was maintained and windows were broken, doors were cracked, the garage door was hanging by a few bolts, so I can imagine what the inside looked like. Why should my property values decrease just because of one home next door that devalues mine.


No matter who they moved into that section 8 home none of them would ever try to keep it looking nice because they didn't care.

 

[youreyes]

...a local family here in Harrisburg was left homeless after their house burned down...

...the community stepped up and did a fundraiser to help get them back on their feet...

If the community hadn't stepped up... well, I don't know what they would have done.

And you know what? I agree with what they did for these poor people. Their were given a chance by the community helping them through efforts of a fundraising.

Now the homeless on the streets that Abbott feeds, are they given this path? Or are they simply given money so that they can go happy back to the streets? See the difference. Help must come with a path to salvation.

What Abott is doing is like giving food to the local family in Harrisburg that you mentioned and not giving them what they really need...which is a way to get back into work/housing/transportation.

 

[youreyes]

YourEyes proposed a simple solution to the above problem - relocate them to a hill somewhere outside town, and just hope someone feeds them. That way no one will see them and their problems.

While I admire you sarcastical nature of a satirical spin on my words. I must say that I used the term "hill" as a reference to Jesus spreading the word of God and food as well during Biblical Times. The "hill" is the place of gathering outside the city and like Cosmictraveler had noted wisely a large building with specific facilities for such a need, would work nicely.

 

[youreyes]

We did something like that a few times in our history...

I think it goes without saying how both of those ended...?

Except that is not what I suggested. Yet everyone caught up on the lie billvon has created of my image.

 

[Bells]

They should build a rather large complex and divide the people into small areas that they seem to fit into. The alcoholics in one place the drug addicts in another the poor and needy in another area and the rest wherever they should be placed, This way they can get the help they need, mill about inside the complex wherever they want to roam to except into others areas. In this complex they should receive the help they need for whatever condition they have. This will help everyone except those not wanting help but they will stay there as well. It would be like a mental health hospital.

You mean like putting them in a prison..?

Yes, curbing their freedoms so that they are removed from your sight is a great solution.

What is wrong with some of you people?

So I skipped your personal attacks on me, since I know you got great support here and no one will ever ban you for anything you say. But whatever.

What you missed Bells is that I have offered a plan on how to deal with the homeless the right way. I am not suggesting to stop feeding the homeless or needy all-together. I am calling for a specific plan and I am offering backup research associated with this.

1) Utah's system of providing homes to the homeless, shows that the government saves overall and should be implemented in Ft. Lauderdale
2) The current feeding on the streets by Mr. Abott needs to stopped and immedeately a food dispersion system under control of the city government needs to be set up, this system would keep track of where the homeless are and provide them with basic services like washing, food, and sleeping bag. All funded by parts from city government and a Project Fund of citizens who are concerned.
3) The homeless will have a clear path to getting back on track. Getting out of debt or solving their addiction problems. Or finding a job.

Those who are addicted or mentally ill and are not changing by specific time, should be removed from the streets all-together, they are a hazard to society.

And until the State does something about helping the homeless that does not involve locking them up like one suggested or shoving them out of sight so that people like you do not have to see them and as long as people like you do not treat them or view them as disease bearing animals and instead start viewing them as human beings deserving of dignity and their basic and fundamental human rights, we won't get anywhere. Demanding that they not be fed in the absolute face of complete inaction by the State in refusing to provide them with care and shelter and food is inhumane and downright cruel and stupid. They need to eat and some people are kind enough to donate their time, their own money and effort into making sure they are at the very least fed and treated like human beings.

That you could protest so vehemently against such a measure is despicable and shameful.

Jesus did not demand, he directed.

And when Jesus did not get what he wanted at Temple, he upended all the tables and threw all the money people were trying to make onto the ground.

I refer to the gathering on the hill and the passing of the bread and fish to others. The passing of the food allowed people to share their food with others. But most importantly it caused the people to change and become open to the needs of others.

It taught those who needed food a lesson, that they in future should share, that they have to change their ways.

Which is exactly what the 90 year old gentleman and his friends are doing. Arnold Abbott and his friends are sharing and feeding those who need to be fed.

Jesus did the right thing, he gave out the food on the hill, outside of the city. Abbott listened, but did not understood the meaning of the lesson of God.

Are you for real?

So it would only be acceptable if it was somewhere far away where the likes of you do not have to see them?

If you think the lesson of your God is to shun the poor and keep them from sight, then you have clearly missed the whole point of Jesus' teachings.

You know who Abbott is? He is the one "selling the goods" in the Temple of God, the very one Jesus came and cleansed of sellers. Free food without a lesson, is a dagger in the back. It is like giving the wine in church without sending the message of faith out.

Mr Abbott is being a wonderful human being and being selfless in trying to help the very people who so desperately need it.

I say, move these "homeless" to the hills, and there they can have their food be given by Abbotts. And spread the message to them that they can live better by sharing.

Out of sight and out of mind huh?

We have one proposing some sort of prison camp to keep them all in and you recommend sending them far away, to the hills so that you don't have to see them.

I ask again, what is wrong with some of you people?

It is not about feeding them somewhere else, it is about directing them on the right path. The "hill" is the place where they are taught and rewarded for listening by food.

What?

They are human beings. Not puppies.

Hey Cosmic you are in Florida, what do you think should be done with homeless? Should we just go ahead and feed them right on street?

They weren't on the street. They were in a public park.

 

[billvon]

While I admire you sarcastical nature of a satirical spin on my words. I must say that I used the term "hill" as a reference to Jesus spreading the word of God and food as well during Biblical Times. The "hill" is the place of gathering outside the city and like Cosmictraveler had noted wisely a large building with specific facilities for such a need, would work nicely.

Yep. "Hill" means, in your case, "some place I don't have to see them." And as I mentioned before, if you think that the message of Jesus was "move the poor to someplace you don't have to see them" you have read a very different version of Scripture than I have.

 

[youreyes]

Yep. "Hill" means, in your case, "some place I don't have to see them." And as I mentioned before, if you think that the message of Jesus was "move the poor to someplace you don't have to see them" you have read a very different version of Scripture than I have.

no that is not what I am claiming.

Not sure how many times I have to repeat myself, but my patience is vast.

As I stated earlier the homeless need to be relocated to a large facility where they can receive proper food and services and will be monitored so that they can keep off the streets and have a clear path to regaining a job and being valuable to society, those who cannot work because they are ill or mentally sick should be treated in a hospital.