8 yr old now living as girl

[wynn]

I've never been abused, but I still went through the phase I described earlier in this thread of not being fully comfortable with being a female. What's your take on that, Signal?

There are two things: acceptance of a particular body (and the physiological and cultural consequences that come with it); and there is identification with a particular body.

If you accept a body, you think 'Okay, I am now in this body, I will try to act so as to make the best of my life.'

If you identify with a body, you think 'I am this body. This is me. Whatever happens to this body, happens to me. There is nothing else to me but this body and the physiological and cultural consequences that come with it.'

Obviously, acceptance is far better than identification.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Signal: If you identify with a body, you think 'I am this body. This is me. Whatever happens to this body, happens to me. There is nothing else to me but this body and the physiological and cultural consequences that come with it.'
Obviously, acceptance is far better than identification.


If transgenders could happily or easily do this wouldn't you think they would? Most experience the 'just get along' advice and then go on to live a lie and experience depression, suicide, drug addiction and shattered relationships.

 

[wynn]

Signal: If you identify with a body, you think 'I am this body. This is me. Whatever happens to this body, happens to me. There is nothing else to me but this body and the physiological and cultural consequences that come with it.'
Obviously, acceptance is far better than identification.

If transgenders could happily or easily do this wouldn't you think they would? Most experience the 'just get along' advice and then go on to live a lie and experience depression, suicide, drug addiction and shattered relationships.

I think a common social problem is to think that what I said above is only a problem for the transgenders.

Many heterosexual people also identify with their bodies. But because heterosexuality is culturally considered the norm, it appears heterosexuals don't go so much into issues of identity as those who don't seem to be heterosexual.

Many people, transgender or not, 'live a lie and experience depression, suicide, drug addiction and shattered relationships' anyway - as can be witnessed by what they talk about.
Sometimes, this living a lie, addictions etc. are attributed to one's gender/sex identity, other times to poor upbringing, other times to mental illness, or to stress, etc. etc. It's not like living a lie, depression etc. would be limited to the transgender population.


It has been my casual observation though that people whose sexuality and gender identity seems to be 'outisde of the norm' are more aware of their identity, it shows that they have deliberately worked on it, that they have invested into it - as opposed to taking it for granted as many heterosexual people tend to.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Why do you assume that transgenders are homosexual? I agree that many people who are not transgenders experience depression, suicide and drug addiction but if somethiing as simple as changing gender can curtail those problems why not simply do so? Are you saying that the 8 year old who's parents simply would have liked a normal healthy child has been 'worked on'? Something the run of the mill therapist would have picked up on in two seconds? Or are you saying that the 8 year old has 'invested'? By the way I wanted to ask you this before, what exactly is it that disturbs you about this? Or what is it that you disagree with particularly? I mean if the parents are happy and the child is ok what exactly is the problem for them or for society?

 

[wynn]

Why do you assume that transgenders are homosexual?

? What did I say that lead you to think I assume such?

I agree that many people who are not transgenders experience depression, suicide and drug addiction but if somethiing as simple as changing gender can curtail those problems why not simply do so?

It can, but there is no guarantee that it will.

Are you saying that the 8 year old who's parents simply would have liked a normal healthy child has been 'worked on'? Something the run of the mill therapist would have picked up on in two seconds?

?

Or are you saying that the 8 year old has 'invested'?

In a way, even this 8-year old did invest in matters of identity more than children generally do at the time. After all, he/she is fighting against the norm.

By the way I wanted to ask you this before, what exactly is it that disturbs you about this? Or what is it that you disagree with particularly? I mean if the parents are happy and the child is ok what exactly is the problem for them or for society?

If I would be a parent, I would not want my child to spend time with children like the ones in the OP.
I would want my child to spend time with healthy, productive, disciplined children, and not those bent on being 'special' in some way or another.

I would direct my child to be healthy, productive, disciplined and not to focus on such things as assigning ultimate identity on how the body looks or should look.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Because of this: "it appears heterosexuals don't go so much into issues of identity as those who don't seem to be heterosexual."

There's no guarantee about anything, this is not a reason to lean on the side of ones unhappiness.

What I meant is that if the child had been coerced the therapists whom they sent the child to would have picked up on it. People don't diagnose 8 year olds of this kind of stuff easily or without thought. Also the parents would not have sought help if they were trying to coerce the child into a specific direction, what would be the point of asking 'excuse me but my child keeps saying....' And worrying over the whole thing.

I disagree that if they honor their own instincts that they are 'fighting against the norm'. He began stating this at the age of 4. What does a 4 year old know about 'the norm'? All you can say is that the child does not represent the norm. You are alleging a sophistication that a child doesn't possess.

Signal: If I would be a parent, I would not want my child to spend time with children like the ones in the OP.

Well that would be your closed minded perogative. How can you penalize an innocent 8 year old?

Signal: I would want my child to spend time with healthy, productive, disciplined children, and not those bent on being 'special' in some way or another.

And when you seek out day care centers, kindergartens and schools how are you to know who is 'special' or healthy, productive, disciplined and who is not? Will you interview or poll all of the children? Have you considered maybe North Korea?

Signal: I would direct my child to be healthy, productive, disciplined and not to focus on such things as assigning ultimate identity on how the body looks or should look.

And why do you assume that the parents didn't do all of this? Do you also assume that homosexuals are the product of faulty parents? What makes you assume that the parents assigned any focus on the body at all? How does a need to change gender indicate a lack of discipline, health and productivity? Remember it is you who states this opinion:

"I suspect that people who have big egos tend not to make assumptions - they tend only to make 'statements about facts'."

You didn't answer these questions:

What exactly is it that disturbs you about this? Or what is it that you disagree with particularly? I mean if the parents are happy and the child is ok what exactly is the problem for them or for society?

 

[wynn]

There's no guarantee about anything, this is not a reason to lean on the side of ones unhappiness.

Nor is it a reason to blindly prefer one approach of solving a problem over other possible apporaches.

What I meant is that if the child had been coerced the therapists whom they sent the child to would have picked up on it. People don't diagnose 8 year olds of this kind of stuff easily or without thought.

The child perhaps wasn't coerced, but it was encouraged by the parents.

I disagree that if they honor their own instincts that they are 'fighting against the norm'. He began stating this at the age of 4. What does a 4 year old know about 'the norm'? You are alleging a sophistication that a child doesn't possess.

Apparently, the child knew enough about the norm to know he didn't fit into it.

Signal: If I would be a parent, I would not want my child to spend time with children like the ones in the OP.

Well that would be your closed minded perogative.

Why 'closed minded'?

How can you penalize an innocent 8 year old?

What do you mean? Do you mean that by not letting a trans- play with my children, I would be 'penalizing' the trans-?

And when you seek out day care centers, kindergartens and schools how are you to know who is 'special', healthy, productive, disciplined and who is not? Will you interview or poll all of the children?

As a parent, you can mostly control (and are supposed to control) what sort of people your child associates with at home and in free time. Many parents do that all the time.
As a parent, you also have some influence over what sort of people your child associates with in school.

And why do you assume that the parents didn't do all of this?

Am I assuming that ...

What makes you assume that the parents assigned any focus on the body at all?

Apparently the parents did focus on the body, this is how they noticed that the child behaves differently than what would culturally be typical for person of such biological sex.

Remember it is you who states this opinion:

"I suspect that people who have big egos tend not to make assumptions - they tend only to make 'statements about facts'."

Awww. And it is you who keeps putting words into my mouth, like what I assume.

What exactly is it that disturbs you about this? Or what is it that you disagree with particularly? I mean if the parents are happy and the child is ok what exactly is the problem for them or for society?

I did answer them.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Please I have made additions to my post can you go back and take them into account. Thanks

 

[wynn]

Please I have made additions to my post can you go back and take them into account. Thanks

I saw them. I see no need for edits.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Why should they choose a different approach to what is the most practical and desirable for the child? What makes you think that you know the 'best' approach?

The child wasn't encouraged by the parents simply accepted by the parents.

Why do you assume he knew about the norm? When I had my first headache I didn't assume that others didn't have pain, I knew only that I had pain and wanted it to end. In other words the child is acting on its own knowledge of itself it is you who assume otherwise. He never said he didn't 'fit into the norm or society' he said he didn't fit into HIS body, there is a very significant difference.

Why closed minded? Because you are so full of assumptions and seem to have a knee-jerk reaction to what is different.

No, I mean you are judging an 8 year old in what is coming across as moral grounds. You are making shaming assumptions as his being unproductive, unhealthy etc.

Signal: As a parent, you can mostly control (and are supposed to control) what sort of people your child associates with at home and in free time.

And what 'sort of people' would you classify this child?

Signal: Am I assuming that ...

Obviously you are.

Signal: Apparently the parents did focus on the body, this is how they noticed that the child behaves differently than what would culturally be typical for person of such biological sex.

Don't be daft! Now you are saying that a parent wouldn't notice if their own child is behaving differently than other children. Read the article! It is the child who approached them with the subject and his desires in what he was saying about himself! It was not the parents saying they instinctively thought or had reason to believe outside anything the child had said or done that brought this about.

Signal: Awww. And it is you who keeps putting words into my mouth, like what I assume.

Then go back, check the facts and validate your claims as opposed to feeding assumptions about what the parents might or might not have done.

Signal: I did answer them.

No you didn't. What problem does this arise for you? The child is fine and the parents are accepting. So what is the problem that you see in the situation? Why object?

Again you didn't answer these questions:

And why do you assume that the parents didn't do all of this? Do you also assume that homosexuals are the product of faulty parents? What makes you assume that the parents assigned any focus on the body at all? How does a need to change gender indicate a lack of discipline, health and productivity?

And this

What does a 4 year old know about 'the norm'? All you can say is that the child does not represent the norm. You are alleging a sophistication that a child doesn't possess.

 

[Enmos]

Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with being liberated.

I agree. But in my opinion there are certain things in which one can be too liberated. Parenting may be one of those.
If your kid beats the neighbor kid into the hospital with shovel, the parents should make it very clear that kind of behavior is bad. As a parent it's important that you set the values for your kids, at least initially.

 

[Enmos]

Considering that we disidentify with our bodies on a daily basis (such as when pushing ourselves out of the bed in the morning, even though the body feels like more sleeping), I wonder how can you ask that question above ...

How is that dis-identifying with your body ? I perfectly recognize that I am still sleepy and I might be grumpy for it at work.

Explain please.

 

[Enmos]

Suppose you get assaulted and/or raped. Would you think that it was indeed you that was raped, and not just your body?

I AM my body.

 

[Enmos]

Interesting ... A common approach in counselling rape victims is along the lines of reasoning 'It wasn't you who was violated, it was just your body.'

That seems a really unhealthy way of looking at things
I would actually say that it's more accurate to say that your mind was raped and not your body. The only difference between being raped and having sex is your mindset.

 

[Enmos]

How do you know that your body is you and you are your body?
What proof do you have for that?

You are the one claiming otherwise. So where does the self reside then, if not in your body ?

 

[Enmos]

I know some.

Are you sure they're not confined in mental institutions ?

 

[Enmos]

They usually don't say that, but from conversations with them I know that they do not uphold such an identification with the body as you.

Why don't they say that if that's what they think ?
Perhaps you're seeing things that aren't there ?

 

[takandjive]

See bolded part.

What did they say in those conversations if they didn't say, "I don't identify with my body,"?

 

[takandjive]

Oh? Do they tell raped women that their dignity was taken away, that they are damaged forever and that they should just live with it?

You don't know anything about rape counseling. They NEVER tell you, "Well, your mind is FINE! Quit whining." I had a D&C and the worst of it is the mental part.

 

[Orleander]

You don't know anything about rape counseling. They NEVER tell you, "Well, your mind is FINE! Quit whining." I had a D&C and the worst of it is the mental part.

No, they don't say that. To even think they do is ludicrous