5% of the population, 25% of the prison population

[Randwolf]

In the meantime, the American taxpayer is handing over quite a bit of money to house a bunch of potheads and assorted drug possessors. (Look into distribution charges as related to the Apprendi decision, carrier-weight laws, and the disaster in Tulia as examples of how the Drug War has helped build our present prison industry.)

...

I see no reason why loving or even appreciating the United States means turning a blind eye to injustice. The United States of America has insanely great potential, but we're in the process of pissing that all away.

Strange days indeed... I am finding numerous areas in which I totally agree with you Tiassa.

Especially the whole "war on drugs" BS, I think the repercussions from being caught up in the legal system is much more likely to "ruin the lives of our young people" than the use of drugs in the first place ever could.

Where we seem to encounter issues is when I throw other "victimless" (IMO) crimes in the same basket, especially prostitution. When I say that, I do not mean that prostitution is "always" victimless, just that it often can be.

In any even, if we stop labeling at least some of this behavior (drug use, for example) as criminal, I think our society would reap great benefits. Comparing and contrasting the benefits under current law vs legalization would be a great thread topic, but I imagine it's already been done.

Cheers..

 

[John99]

randwolf, did you read the post and link #59 or are you going on a hunch here?

 

[Randwolf]

randwolf, did you read the post and link #59 or are you going on a hunch here?

Yes, I did and no, I'm not.

There is a subtle difference between what you are looking at and what I am saying. Try to stay with me now...

Excerpt from your link in post #59:
Drugs or Alcohol Linked to 80% of Inmates

Illegal drugs and alcohol helped lead to the imprisonment of 4 out of 5 inmates in the nation's prisons and jails, a three-year study has found.

The report, which was released yesterday by the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse at Columbia University, determined that of 1.7 million prisoners in 1996, 1.4 million had violated drug or alcohol laws, had been high when they committed their crimes, had stolen to support their habit or had a history of drug and alcohol abuse that led them to commit crimes.

John, simply stated, this article points out that 80% of all incarcerated Americans suffer from drug or alcohol problems, regardless of the crime that they were convicted of.


It is quite another kettle of fish to point out that 20% of inmates in state detention and 53% of inmates in Federal facilities are there solely because of drug offenses. This equates overall to 24%, or nearly one out of four Americans currently behind bars are there for drug offenses.

This 25% represents those that in many cases are otherwise law abiding citizens. Meaning there are 350,000 potentially productive people languishing in prison only because they were involved in substance abuse. I am not advocating releasing or decriminalizing all crimes, nor do I deny that most crimes are perpetrated by people that are high or drunk.

This is the tricky part: The 25% of inmates that I feel are unjustly imprisoned solely for drug use are a subset of your 80%, which represents all criminals convicted of all crimes. Get it now? It's kind of tough to wrap your mind around at first, but if you keep thinking about it, I believe you will see where I am coming from...

References from Prisons & Drug Offenders viewed on 04/20/2009 at 9:13 EST representing incarceration figures fom 2007.

Your thoughts?

 

[John99]

you are just out of touch and very naive. this isnt the 70s where people are tripping or smoking weed and everything is beautiful. even still pot smokers who are in prison for personal use...i dont even know if they exist but if you can find some then let me know. drugs used today are very dangerous and cut with all kinds of crap.

also the article cited above is referring to users who committed their crimes because of an addiction so legalizing drugs will not prevent this in even the slightest way. and an addict rarely gets arrested purchasing a small amount of drugs, they are addicted but theyre not stupid and how many of those you say are in prison strictly for drugs are in their for intent to distribute???

either way drugs lead to all kinds of other crimes including spousal abuse, molestation, robbery, people giving bj's for 75 cents etc.

the main thing is that you are out of touch, i dont want to call you [edited] because you are not [edited] but in this case you coming very close.

and dont think drugs are only a problem in the u.s. not by a long shot. south america, europe, middle east? Iran has a big drug problem and i have no idea what they do over there but i doubt you want to get caught with drugs there. maybe someone else can give some input on that.

now if you want to talk seriously about crime and punishment then you must be aware of the revolving door justice system. it is really like a self sustaining industry and most criminals are repeat offenders. so what is the answer to that?

 

[John99]

and please dont waste my time telling me about alcohol. i know all about the problems associated with alcohol but to compare them should be left for another thread.

the big difference is that people really do have one beer or one glass of wine but i never heard of anyone snorting one line of meth\coke and calling it a night or one taking one hit off a crack pipe and going home to watch the ball game.

 

[John99]

This may be an exercise in futility, but I would like to get clarification as to why you got that from the context. I reread the OP, and I see no reference, explicit or implied, that this has anything to do with whether "these were crimes in progress or witnessed by law enforcement".

Additionally, if the alleged crimes fall in this category or not, I'm not sure it would have much bearing on the likelihood of the suspects being, in fact, guilty.

Nonetheless, my question still stands:
Do you believe that "well, since the person was arrested, they must be guilty"? Yes or no would be nice.

Also, regardless of the chain of events leading to arrest, i.e. involvement "informants" or not, the fact remains that many people are arrested for offenses that they are not guilty of. Is there any evidence that you would accept as proof of my assertion?

First of all, what do you mean by this, in general? Secondly, why do you presume that I wouldn't know it? Whatever it is... :shrug:

Please tell me you are not trying to explain the difference between "not guilty" and "innocent" are you? Is that what "there is no such thing as innocent when it comes to verdicts." alludes to?

Or are you perhaps delving just a little bit deeper, and pointing out that whether found guilty or not, the mere fact of being arrested will haunt you damn near forever? If the latter is the case, I wholeheartedly agree...

Please get back to me and elaborate on your points, because quite honestly, at this point I'm not sure whether to disagree or say "bravo"...

i was speaking from personal experience and from what i have seen but i am aware of the chances of actually being not guilty of the crime and the problems with informants. so lets not dwell on that one statement.

afa the innocent comment it is only becuase that is the term you used and i was telling you that in a legal sense it is not used and really because no one is innocent. innocence means something very different at least that is what i was taught by an instructor in criminal law. so if anything has changed then i will concede.

 

[Randwolf]

John, you are completely out of touch with reality. Your posts remind me of the idiocy [unedited] that a fourth grader may hastily create the night before his report is due.

you are just out of touch and very naive. this isnt the 70s where people are tripping or smoking weed and everything is beautiful.

I was there, and it wasn't all beautiful. Were you there? Did you smoke pot and trip? What was your favorite variety of acid? Did you prefer Columbian Gold or Kohna bud? Don't preach to me about naiveté, I actually experienced this era, learned a lot, protested some, got my ass kicked here and there by assorted cops, etc. What were you doing during these years?

even still pot smokers who are in prison for personal use...i dont even know if they exist but if you can find some then let me know.

What would you know? What would you except as proof - let me know and I'll find it for you, because I know first hand, personally, up close that this exists - unlike your armchair pontificating...

drugs used today are very dangerous and cut with all kinds of crap.

Assuming you were out of diapers / nappies in the 70s, you would know that heroin, cocaine and php were all available in. Exactly what "very dangerous" drugs are available today that weren't then? Ecstasy? Give me a break, that's laughable. As far as "cut with all kinds of crap", I don't suppose you have the faintest idea of what paraquat refers to do you? Go ahead, scurry to googol so you can pretend to be informed - what a joke.

also the article cited above is referring to users who committed their crimes because of an addiction so legalizing drugs will not prevent this in even the slightest way.

No one said it would. You're the one that cited that article as if it was somehow relevant to the price of a lid. When did I assert that legalizing drugs would stop or reduce rape, murder, etc.?

You could possibly make a case for a reduction in petty theft and extortion, but I believe I will reserve those arguments for someone playing with a full deck. However, if you can find your way out of that self-induced haze enough to grasp the angles to be contemplated in such an argument, and are able to describe even one, I'll reconsider. How might petty theft be reduced by legalizing drugs, John? Got an inkling of a clue?

and an addict rarely gets arrested purchasing a small amount of drugs, they are addicted but theyre not stupid and how many of those you say are in prison strictly for drugs are in their for intent to distribute???

You made this assertion John, let's see you back it up. Should be great fun...

either way drugs lead to all kinds of other crimes including spousal abuse, molestation, robbery, people giving bj's for 75 cents etc.

Prove it. Show me the evidence.

the main thing is that you are out of touch, i dont want to call you [edited] because you are not [edited] but in this case you coming very close.

Your right, I tend to be out of touch with inanity and the thought processes of the severely mentally challenged. Is that what you are referring to, there John?

and dont think drugs are only a problem in the u.s. not by a long shot. south america, europe, middle east? Iran has a big drug problem and i have no idea what they do over there but i doubt you want to get caught with drugs there. maybe someone else can give some input on that.

Someone certainly can, if they are so inclined. But again what does that have to do with the price of a lid?

i really dont know where you are going to go to find all drugs legalized. do i have a solution?

Oh, I don't know. Amsterdam is pretty close, ever been?

not really because most people have to learn for themselves so i dont know what to say about that. i can tell you that whole neighborhoods get brought down because of drugs, not because they are illegal but because they are available. just look at what crack did to some cities in the 80s. if you told them then that drugs should be legal the people living there would put you in a mental institution.

This is where you are so wrong, and the intricacies involved in why you are so wrong are way, way beyond someone only capable of reasoning two steps ahead. Don't quit your day job to become a chess player John.

now if you want to talk seriously about crime and punishment then you really must be aware of the revolving door justice system. it is really like a self sustaining industry and most criminals are repeat offenders. so what is the answer to that?

I already told you.


Quite frankly, I am tired with attempting to reason with an entity that apparently functions at a level of mentality barely approaching a four year old. So, either come up with some evidence to support your off the wall assertions and half-assed conclusions or bow out - gracefully or otherwise.

 

[John99]

I was there, and it wasn't all beautiful. Were you there? Did you smoke pot and trip? What was your favorite variety of acid? Did you prefer Columbian Gold or Kohna bud? Don't preach to me about naiveté, I actually experienced this era, learned a lot, protested some, got my ass kicked here and there by assorted cops, etc. What were you doing during these years?


“
Originally Posted by John99
even still pot smokers who are in prison for personal use...i dont even know if they exist but if you can find some then let me know.
”
What would you know? What would you except as proof - let me know and I'll find it for you, because I know first hand, personally, up close that this exists - unlike your armchair pontificating...

lol, you have some good qualities but admitting when you are wrong is not one of them but really it is more like misinformed.

i was smart enough to figure out your experience is from the 70s, now how did i figure that one out? now i wasnt around in the 70s but my info is current, not way over 30 years old.

pot smokers in prison for small quantities? your going to have to prove that. where i live you get caught smoking you get a $100 fine. what is it like where you live?

out of curiosity, are you Australian?

 

[Randwolf]

lol, you have some good qualities but admitting when you are wrong is not one of them but really it is more like misinformed.

Thanks, but "misinformed" is yet to be proven. See last comment in this post.

i was smart enough to figure out your experience is from the 70s, now how did i figure that one out? now i wasnt around in the 70s but my info is current, not way over 30 years old.

I don't think you figured it out, I believe you took advantage of my assertion that I was there to try to prove your intelligence. It's called intellectual dishonesty, of which you are an apprentice. The data I provided you was circa 2007, hardly 30 years out of date.

pot smokers in prison for small quantities? your going to have to prove that. where i live you get caught smoking you get a $100 fine. what is it like where you live?

OK, John, get ready. Are you ready? Remember your asinine "some good qualities but admitting when you are wrong is not one of them" comment? Let's see how you fair:

Marijuana: Prisoners of Conscience​

The FBI reported that, nationwide, there were 695,201 marijuana arrests made in 1997 alone. Of these, 87% were for possession.

Since 1965, there have been over 11 million marijuana arrests in the United States of America. The marijuana arrest rate right now is at an all time high.

An estimated 37,000 marijuana prisoners are currently sitting in federal and state prisons and in local jails in the U.S.

Sources: FBI Uniform Crime Reports, Marijuana Policy Project​

So john, do you prefer your crow, roasted or fried? :spank:

I take it as a given that "admitting when your wrong" is, of course, one of your strong points. :blbl:

out of curiosity, are you Australian?

No.

 

[h.g.Whiz]

Judges Mark A. Ciavarella Jr. and Michael T. Conahan received $2.6 million in kickbacks while imprisoning children who often had no access to a lawyer. The case offers an extraordinary glimpse into the shameful private prison industry that is flourishing in the United States

 

[John99]

you have to be kidding. you give me a link with a handful of people on it and that proves what? that some were charged with:

conspiracy to distribute cocaine, continuing criminal enterprise, and money laundering

SELLING crack etc.

i already said there should be a distinction between weed and hard drugs that destroy people lives. i already said that wmoking or psession of a small quantity is a fine but how can i know what the penalty is where you live if you dont tell me.

your link with a few sentences that were written to make a statement is not proof of anything.

The FBI reported that, nationwide, there were 695,201 marijuana arrests made in 1997 alone. Of these, 87% were for possession.

Since 1965, there have been over 11 million marijuana arrests in the United States of America. The marijuana arrest rate right now is at an all time high.

An estimated 37,000 marijuana prisoners are currently sitting in federal and state prisons and in local jails in the U.S.

i dont know if some of those stats are instances where people were released with a fine and\or community service or wht quantities the one in prison were charged with. could be pounds but there is a difference when it comes to quantity.

as far as the netherlands which you mentioned earlier - last i heard was that they arent exactly doing too well with their drug policies either but i am too tired to look for links so the first one i did find is here:

http://www.drugpolicy.org/global/drugpolicyby/westerneurop/thenetherlan/

* no more than 5 grams per person may be sold in any one transaction;

* no hard drugs may be sold;

Separating the markets by allowing people to purchase soft drugs in a setting where they are not exposed to the criminal subculture surrounding hard drugs is intended to create a social barrier that prevents people experimenting with drugs like heroin, cocaine and methamphetamine, drugs deemed an “unacceptable risk.”

i think you are in kansas with the wizard.

 

[John99]

Judges Mark A. Ciavarella Jr. and Michael T. Conahan received $2.6 million in kickbacks while imprisoning children who often had no access to a lawyer. The case offers an extraordinary glimpse into the shameful private prison industry that is flourishing in the United States

corruption is a fact of life and present all over the world. you have two people listed here so hardly anything significant.

 

[John99]

me=:wallbang::wallbang::wallbang:

 

[Randwolf]

you have to be kidding. you give me a link with a handful of people on it and that proves what?

Well, John how predictable. You really had very little choice but to attack the veracity of the quote now did you? You asked for proof that people are still incarcerated for marijuana possession, and I supplied one, base on FBI Uniform Crime Reports, Marijuana Policy Project as a source.

Here's anoher for you to tear apart like the little terrier that you are, and then I'm out, you will have to practice your delusions all by yourself:

“Marijuana Arrests Set New Record for Fourth Year in a Row”

A study of New York City marijuana arrests conducted by Queens College, released in April 2008, reports that between 1998 and 2007 the New York police arrested 374,900 people whose most serious crime was the lowest-level misdemeanor marijuana offense. That number is eight times higher than the number of arrests (45,300) from 1988 to 1997.

Have fun, sail on down de river... Oh wait, you will never get it. Let me spell it out for you: De Nile is not just a river in Egypt.

Please place earplugs firmly in place and make sure your blindfold is securely fastened so as not to allow any truth to seep through.

Your inane posturing fools no one, and I for one, am done - you are right, no one is in jail that doesn't deserve to be, no one is arrested for simple possession of pot (or any other drug), and of course, if they were to be arrested, it goes without saying that they are guilty, and if guilty, they deserve the punishment the received.

Don't let anyone dissuade you from your idiocy - stick to your guns. I surrender, you are the most wise, I appreciate the time you took to try to enlighten me... :truce:

 

[John99]

that quote in the box is consistent with what i have been saying all a long.

lowest-level misdemeanor marijuana offense

this is from google search:

"First offense of low-level marijuana possession carries only a fine"

that is why your statistics are skewed and easily misleading.

 

[Randwolf]

that quote in the box is consistent with what i have been saying all a long.



this is from google search:

"First offense of low-level marijuana possession carries only a fine"

that is why your statistics are skewed and easily misleading.

Does this stat ring a bell, or are you totally completely dense, akin to uranium?

"An estimated 37,000 marijuana prisoners are currently sitting in federal and state prisons and in local jails in the U.S."

Why don't you just admit that no amount of quotes, anecdotes or other evidence is going to convince you that people do time for possession of marijuana? It just doesn't happen, right?

Why don't you take a joint down to the local P.D. and light up, just to prove your point? If they give you leniency for idiocy the first time try it again... Wash and repeat as necessary. When you make your way inside, let me know and I will be sure to contribute $.25 to your commissary fund...

Give it up, and good night.

 

[The Breaker]

Legalize all drugs. Problems solved.

 

[Cellar_Door]

drugs are not only sold or used by black people. far from it. this whole thing of using a race of people to make a negative point is creepy. this is a gratuitous race baiting thread anyway.

Erm... why? :bugeye:

 

[John99]

Why don't you take a joint down to the local P.D. and light up, just to prove your point? If they give you leniency for idiocy the first time try it again... Wash and repeat as necessary. When you make your way inside, let me know and I will be sure to contribute $.25 to your commissary fund...

you can say that to 95% of the worlds population.

that isnt even funny.

 

[John99]

Legalize all drugs. Problems solved.

i think we know how you been repeating it over and over.

Erm... why? :bugeye:

is there anything else you would like to ADD?