5% of the population, 25% of the prison population

S.A.M. said:
Leo is either pro-cop or ex-cop.
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or both.
He thrills in conspiracy theories and defends the excesses of the justice system.:D
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i am delighted when garbage is taken off the streets, yes.
Just look at voting patterns if you have any doubts.
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and what patterns are we to look for?
I've met interracial couples who are profiled by both blacks and whites!
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i've met whites that were profiled by whites and blacks.
i've met blacks that were profiled by whites and blacks.
i've met black couples that were profiled by whites and blacks.
i've met white couples that were profiled by whites and blacks.
But I am more interested in the sheer number of incarcerated people than profiling.
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you are interested in only one thing sam, your posting history proves it.

edit:
it's entirely possible that sam has indeed turned over a new leaf.
we'll see.
 
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S.A.M. said:
These are some freaking weird statistics. Is there so much undercounting in other places?
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No, these figures have been published in the U.S. news for many years. We overcame Russia when it was still the Soviet Union, South Africa when it was still a hell-hole, and China at about the same time. Prisons are a major industry over here. Although communities usually object to prisons being built nearby, once they're established the population adjusts through migration and the new citizens become quite fond of the income.
Bowser said:
I blame the war on drugs.
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Absolutely. Something like 40% of our prison population is there for drug-related offenses. The majority are either non-violent users or ridiculously low-level dealers whose capture makes no difference in the business. American cops much prefer going after people who won't shoot back.

A couple of decades ago during the nightmare known as the Reagan years, America enacted a lot of "mandatory minimum sentencing" laws. People were suddenly sent to prison for 15-20 years for merely taking a phone message for their roommate's drug deal. Our prisons are overflowing with people whom the judges would like to release but the law won't allow it.
John99 said:
drugs are not only sold or used by black people. far from it. this whole thing of using a race of people to make a negative point is creepy. this is a gratuitous race baiting thread anyway.
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Every report I've read on this subject for the past twenty years consistently repeats the statistic that contrary to all stereotypes, the rate of drug use in the African-American and Latino communities is virtually identical to the Euro-American community. But an African-American drug user is twice as likely to be arrested as a Euro-American, if he's arrested he's twice as likely to be prosecuted, and if he's prosecuted he's twice as likely to be convicted and imprisoned--that makes a factor of eight. That's where the disparity comes from.

It's hard to avoid concluding that our legal system truly does discriminate against the African-Americans. Of course circumstances are always cited to excuse this. "Black people talk back to the cops." "Black people don't have the sense to do it in private." "Black people can't afford good lawyers." "Black people are always ratting on each other." etc.

Hmm. If we can change our entire culture to give preferential treatment to African-Americans in university admissions and job placement, why has no one clued the cops in on this development? Is this their way of getting revenge for Affirmative Action?
CutsieMarie89 said:
I was emphasizing the racial profiling, aren't people of middle eastern and Indian descent treated differently at airports?
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Indians are our new favorite minority, the new Chinese. We couldn't keep our computers running without them. Half the people on my software project are from India.
 
Indians are our new favorite minority, the new Chinese. We couldn't keep our computers running without them. Half the people on my software project are from India.
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why dont you hire some black people?
 
John99 said:
have you ever been to prison fraggle?
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No, and what's your point? I've never been to Idaho, Venezuela or Africa either. Since I can't go everywhere it's really fortunate that I can read.
you gave that speech a few times. it's getting long in the tooth and so are you.
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Which one? The latest statistics on the relative levels of drug use in the African-American and Euro-American communities and on the relative probabilities of an African-American and Euro-American drug user being imprisoned were just published in the Washington Post last month.

Besides, even if you're familiar with these statistics it's obvious that most of the members are not. The redneck stereotype of the "drug epidemic in the black community" is too ugly to let stand. So is the redneck stereotype of the noble cop and DA protecting us all from evil... after scaring us with the first stereotype. (And if you want to nail me for stereotyping rednecks, go for it. They don't need my help.;))
why dont you hire some black people?
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I'm a contractor, not an employee of the organization doing the hiring. But in general people hire Indians for professional positions because they're willing to work for a lower wage than the competition. Every new immigrant group goes through this phase. Companies used to hire Chinese software developers cheap, then Russians. Now it's Indians.
 
spidergoat said:
No, but they are overwhelmingly incarcerated for them. There are a number of reasons for this. One is the difference under the law between crack and power cocaine. Another is that they live in greater density because they tend to be poor, and so they go outside to do their drugs, where the police can find them. Another is that they can't afford attorneys, so they use public defenders who don't defend them adequately (just consider Rush Limbaugh's light punishment for drug trafficking).
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Agreed. People like to blame it on racism, but I think it has a lot more to do with the cops going after the "low hanging fruit." White people don't usually sell drugs to random strangers on the street corner; they're more likely to do drug deals in an apartment or something with people who they know, or friends of people they know. Of course they could still be caught, but most cops aren't going to put in the effort to build a case against them when they could just drive to a bad neighborhood and have someone walk up to their undercover car and offer to sell them drugs.

Although I agree that the sentencing differences between hydrochloride vs. fee base cocaine make no sense whatsoever.
 
John99 said:
...but i honestly never heard of anyone being arrested who did not commit a crime.
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You're kidding, right John? What planet are you from? If nothing else, certainly you are aware of the spate of death row convicts being released because recent advances in DNA technology conclusively proved said convicts were not the culprits?

Maybe you didn't know these people personally, but your remark tends to imply the old "well, if he / she was arrested, they must be guilty". How absurd...

Furthermore, if we are to take your comments regarding your upbringing at face value, I find it incredibly hard to imagine that you've never personally known anyone that was arrested without commiting a crime. Perhaps you simply chose not to believe in their innocence? Or maybe you are saying that they probably committed some crime at some point in their lives? In any event, I call BS, although there is no way I can prove it. :rolleyes:
 
John99 said:
we were talking about small crimes so that quote is out of context.
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No, that quote was to inquire as to whether you were aware of the situation.

Your current post implies that you believe that it is more likely that one be falsely arrested for a "major crime than for a "small crime"? Please...

Let me ask you straight out... Do you believe people are frequently arrested for crimes that they did not, in fact, commit? Or do you hold to the adage that "if they were arrested they must be guilty"?.


Before you answer, you might want to think on:

It's Really Easy to Put Innocent People in Jail for Drugs
In an effort to protect our society from drugs, we've created laws that endanger everyone:

A federal judge decided Tuesday to free 15 men from prison because their convictions were based on testimony of a government informant who lied on the witness stand and framed innocent people.

Collectively, the men have served at least 30 years behind bars…

The case is a blow to the federal justice system, which relies heavily on informant-based testimony, lawyers said. The men, some with no prior run-ins with the law, were given long prison sentences based almost exclusively on the word of informant Jerrell Bray and Lee Lucas, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration agent who supervised Bray. [Cleveland Plain Dealer]

Stories like this emerge regularly, and yet one can only imagine how many such travesties of justice will never come to light. The process is so simple: informant makes up stories to get himself out of trouble, someone else get in trouble, informant doesn't. You couldn't design a more efficient system for collecting innocent people and tossing them behind bars.
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Or:

study from Northwestern University
More troubling was that juries sent 25 percent of innocent people to jail while the innocent had a 37 percent chance of being wrongfully convicted by a judge.
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Now, these statistics relate to those falsely convicted, let alone arrested - think, think, think!
 
Has it crossed anyone's mind that maybe these wall street big shots investing in the prison work force are aiming for a 100% prison population (not including guards)? It would be the cheapest workforce imaginable and they could fool people into thinking it was legitimate.
 
Wow. Sam made a thread about one of the U.S.'s shortcomings. Who here saw that coming?
I feel so blindsided.

Sam picks on the U.S. much like a little elementary school girl picks on a guy she likes.

So we can conclude that Sam is actually a closet U.S. fan.
 
Randwolf said:
No, that quote was to inquire as to whether you were aware of the situation.

Your current post implies that you believe that it is more likely that one be falsely arrested for a "major crime than for a "small crime"? Please...

Let me ask you straight out... Do you believe people are frequently arrested for crimes that they did not, in fact, commit? Or do you hold to the adage that "if they were arrested they must be guilty"?.


Before you answer, you might want to think on:

It's Really Easy to Put Innocent People in Jail for Drugs


Or:

study from Northwestern University


Now, these statistics relate to those falsely convicted, let alone arrested - think, think, think!
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first of all there is no need to lecture me on informants because we are talking about very different scenarios. in the context of the conversation i took it for granted that it would be understood that these were crimes in progress or witnessed by law enforcement.

and here is something you dont even seem to know:

there is no such thing as innocent when it comes to verdicts.;)
 
Mike and S.A.M., sitting in a tree?

Mikenostic said:

Wow. Sam made a thread about one of the U.S.'s shortcomings. Who here saw that coming?
I feel so blindsided.
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We used to have these discussions occasionally, especially when I was crusading against the Drug War.

The prison industry in the United States is a viable topic. In the 1990s, there was much talk of privatization, and now prisons are also part of the private sector, which requires growth for the industry sector to survive.

In the meantime, the American taxpayer is handing over quite a bit of money to house a bunch of potheads and assorted drug possessors. (Look into distribution charges as related to the Apprendi decision, carrier-weight laws, and the disaster in Tulia as examples of how the Drug War has helped build our present prison industry.)

And, furthermore, "a closet U.S. fan"? I never thought there was anything closeted about her respect for this nation. Sometimes the best thing you can do for the country is stand up or speak out against absurdity.

I see no reason why loving or even appreciating the United States means turning a blind eye to injustice. The United States of America has insanely great potential, but we're in the process of pissing that all away. Many Americans and, indeed, much of the world at large, is hoping that Obama will deliver and stop our precarious tumble toward the abyss. We're here. We're huge. We've managed to stake much of the world's progress on our success. That being the case, there are many, many people in the world who want us to succeed because, as the current economic phase reminds, we don't intend to go down without taking everyone else with us.

(To the other, if I apply your logic, I'm struck at how many people at Sciforums are absolutely in love with S.A.M.)
 
John99 said:
first of all there is no need to lecture me on informants because we are talking about very different scenarios. in the context of the conversation i took it for granted that it would be understood that these were crimes in progress or witnessed by law enforcement.
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This may be an exercise in futility, but I would like to get clarification as to why you got that from the context. I reread the OP, and I see no reference, explicit or implied, that this has anything to do with whether "these were crimes in progress or witnessed by law enforcement".

Additionally, if the alleged crimes fall in this category or not, I'm not sure it would have much bearing on the likelihood of the suspects being, in fact, guilty.

Nonetheless, my question still stands:
Do you believe that "well, since the person was arrested, they must be guilty"? Yes or no would be nice.

Also, regardless of the chain of events leading to arrest, i.e. involvement "informants" or not, the fact remains that many people are arrested for offenses that they are not guilty of. Is there any evidence that you would accept as proof of my assertion?


John99 said:
and here is something you dont even seem to know:

there is no such thing as innocent when it comes to verdicts.;)
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First of all, what do you mean by this, in general? Secondly, why do you presume that I wouldn't know it? Whatever it is... :shrug:

Please tell me you are not trying to explain the difference between "not guilty" and "innocent" are you? Is that what "there is no such thing as innocent when it comes to verdicts." alludes to?

Or are you perhaps delving just a little bit deeper, and pointing out that whether found guilty or not, the mere fact of being arrested will haunt you damn near forever? If the latter is the case, I wholeheartedly agree...

Please get back to me and elaborate on your points, because quite honestly, at this point I'm not sure whether to disagree or say "bravo"... :confused:
 
people in prison are in for many more things than drugs so lets not distort the issues. or are we here to bull shit away and fantasize about the so called fictitious 'pot head' smoking a joint in the street.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/01/09/us/drugs-or-alcohol-linked-to-80-of-inmates.html

The report, which was released yesterday by the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse at Columbia University, determined that of 1.7 million prisoners in 1996, 1.4 million had violated drug or alcohol laws, had been high when they committed their crimes, had stolen to support their habit or had a history of drug and alcohol abuse that led them to commit crimes.
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Even legalizing drugs wont stop people from needing to steal or commit crimes or even committing other crimes while on a binge. basically lets not be disingenuous with the old wives tale of the poor pot head victim that doesnt even exist.
 
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