1+1+1=1? What's Up with the Trinity?

Originally posted by orthogonal
Seriously, isn't trying to find an equation for God like trying to calculate how many angels could dance on the head of a pin?
It was intended as a dry humour. :)
Originally posted by orthogonal
I'd like to point out that the sum of your Jebus + Father + Spook is only 0.999; which is 0.001 less than 1.0 :)
;) Maybe we can avoid the messy recurring decimals by adding SATAN to the list of deities. Then it would be an even -

Daddy-o = 0.25 god
Sonny = 0.25 god
spooky = 0.25
Satan = 0.25

Satan, with power over the entire non-christian population! surely presides over a larger constituency than god, :D :D and must be a deity as well.
 
Re: Re: Re: 1+1+1=1? What's Up with the Trinity?

Originally posted by Markx
Randolfo,
Nothing against you and no disgrace to your religion. But it seems to me that Jesus was trying to tell you all something, and entire christian world miss that and follows what paul,mark and matthew wrote in there. Now let me give you little expample what jesus was trying to say, and yet you still will miss this point.
Let's see:
Jews tell us we are wrong,
Muslims tell us we are wrong,
Hindus tell us we are wrong,
Mormons tell us we are wrong,
Atheists tell us we are wrong,
Philosophers tell us we may be wrong,
Agnostics tell us maybe we are wrong,
who should I believe?

My opinion is that,
as a Christian,
and nothing against you and no disgrace to your religion,
but I believe the following:
Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light, no man comes to the Father except through Me."
In my equations, you are all wrong.
But that is all a matter of opinion, yours and mine.
We (you all & me), do not have 100% facts to back up any assumptions, beliefs or theories of who, what or why this universe was created or why it came into being, that could be verified scientifically (it's all math, experiments & theories).
And since no scientist was observing 'the creation of the universe', at the moment it happened, I feel that while the math may be elegant and all the hypotheses grand, that the 'Big Bang' was a created event by God, when He said, "Let there be light." Prove me wrong!
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: 1+1+1=1? What's Up with the Trinity?

Originally posted by Randolfo

But that is all a matter of opinion, yours and mine.
We (you all & me), do not have 100% facts to back up any assumptions, beliefs or theories of who, what or why this universe was created or why it came into being, that could be verified scientifically (it's all math, experiments & theories).

Except that "do not have 100% facts" is a subtle way of saying "do not have any facts whatsoever". There are no theories, no experiments, and no math at all that show where the universe came from. There are speculations, but at present all such speculations are totally baseless (and likely too primitive to be correct anyway.)

And since no scientist was observing 'the creation of the universe', at the moment it happened, I feel that while the math may be elegant and all the hypotheses grand, that the 'Big Bang' was a created event by God, when He said, "Let there be light." Prove me wrong

The universe was there at the moment it happened, and since the universe is causal we can trace back what happened based on what we observe today. No evidence of anyone saying anything at the moment of the 'Big Bang' has ever been uncovered.

On the other hand, it is easy enough to prove your particular concept of God wrong. On logical grounds, you're just plain wrong and it's not just a matter of opinion.
 
Originally posted by orthogonal

I'd like to point out that the sum of your Jebus + Father + Spook is only 0.999; which is 0.001 less than 1.0 :)
Thanks for the math lesson,
by the way, you all, it's "Jesus" & "Spirit".



When a contradiction in religious dogma is brought to the attention of theists, their typical response is to say that, "The Lord works in mysterious ways". But even more mysterious is how reasonable men convince themselves that religious explanations adequately describe our world.

Michael
And that is, as opposed to all those 100% facts you all live by?
You know, Communism was supposed to make a 'new man', they supposedly knew all the facts,
get millions murdered, etc...
You know, Science was supposed to make a 'new man', they supposedly knew all the facts,
get millions murdered, etc...
You know, Islam was supposed to make a 'new man', they supposedly knew all the facts,
get millions murdered, etc...
I know, Christianity was supposed to make a 'new man', they supposedly knew all the facts,
get millions murdered, etc...
NO excuses, unfortunately many people don't change inside when they claim to become Christians, but by saying Jesus is your Lord and Savior, you are supposed to change from being a murderer, liar, thief, etc...
I think being a Christian can be both the easiest & the hardest thing to do,
Easy, because you can just say you are one,
Hard, because you have to live a changed life afterwards.

:):confused: :eek: :D
 
Randolfo, how can you base your truths on a "Holy Book" that has been misinterpreted and mistranslated for years. How can you base you entire Life on the Bible that has been tampered with. As many quotes as you find that Jesus states or implies that he is "God" I can quote atleast double that proves just the opposite. This infact means that there are contradictions in the Bible. There are over 100 contradictions in the Bible. So why put your complete Faith in something like this???? It Boggles my mind!!!!!!
 
Originally posted by LIGHTBEING
Randolfo, how can you base your truths on a "Holy Book" that has been misinterpreted and mistranslated for years. How can you base you entire Life on the Bible that has been tampered with. As many quotes as you find that Jesus states or implies that he is "God" I can quote atleast double that proves just the opposite. This infact means that there are contradictions in the Bible. There are over 100 contradictions in the Bible. So why put your complete Faith in something like this???? It Boggles my mind!!!!!!

Simply Pathetic. Isn't it?. I agree with you. How many time do we have to prove just from their own Bible that Jesus was not a God?? I just wonder how many?.
 
interesting, why do christians fear from that -> (Jesus=human)
why is human worse thn god?

and also it is very funny, how they are against idol worshiping. what is cross, holy relicts, pictures of Mary. maybe also fear tht they are worshiping a human?!
!amizant people!
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: 1+1+1=1? What's Up with the Trinity?

Originally posted by Randolfo

[My opinion is that,
as a Christian,
and nothing against you and no disgrace to your religion,
but I believe the following:
Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light, no man comes to the Father except through Me."
In my equations, you are all wrong.
Prove me wrong!


I am not denying God but I am denying Your "God". Now can you please prove your point here, : Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light, no man comes to the Father except through Me."

Now what would you like us to believe from this verse? What was Jesus trying to say or tell?. "Through me" So does it mean through Beliving in what Jesus said or what he did ?? Or Is it simple salvation issue here?. Believe in me and and me beeing a God and You will be save?. Now please tell us and also give us some context here. Please write what he said before and after that. He is saying simple thing, He was the example of perfection or should I say a Holy Prophet who demonstrate what God wants from people. And look at all the christians or Majority of them they don't follow him but worship him. Now is it sad or what?.

Peace
 
Originally posted by Avatar
interesting, why do christians fear from that -> (Jesus=human)
why is human worse thn god?

and also it is very funny, how they are against idol worshiping. what is cross, holy relicts, pictures of Mary. maybe also fear tht they are worshiping a human?!
!amizant people!

I wonder the same too. Now if they will believe that Jesus was a human then there will be no christianity which means they will exactly believe in what Jesus was trying to tell them but then what will happen to all the so called inspired writings? Who would believe in Paul?? or John or mathew?. I mean those were the one who invented the true christianity. It wasn't Jesus or was he??.
 
Three and Three for Trinity and We All Fall Down

I was wondering if we might take a moment to look at an aspect of the Trinity which does not, as yet, seem to be part of the discussion docket; namely, the history of the Trinity itself.

1) What is the Trinity?
2) How did it come about?
3) What is its significance?

1. The Trinity: definition

The first thing we can note of the Trinity is that it is not exactly a Biblical concept. While the aspects of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit do have their places in the Bible, the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on The Blessed Trinity notes,
In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom ("Ad. Autol.", II, 15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian ("De pud." c. xxi). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen ("In Ps. xvii", 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen's pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes:

There is therefore nothing created, nothing subject to another in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever (P. G., X, 986).
The Catholic Encyclopedia goes on to provide biblical evidence of the Trinity: (T)he various elements of the Trinitarian doctrine are all expressly taught in the New Testament. The Divinity of the Three Persons is asserted or implied in passages too numerous to count.

It's fair enough to look to the Catholics on this; they did, after all, formalize the institutional Trinity. Ne'er have I heard from any protestant Trinitarian an argument justifying the idea of the Trinity. Understanding that many pagan cultures raise triune deities, we might wonder at the rise of the Trinity at a time when pagan conversions and Christian infighting dominated the development of faith. From that first mention in Theophilus of Antioch in 180 CE through the Nicene Creed of the 325 CE, the trinity existed as an idea, but had no formal backing in the chuch.

2. Trinity: Origin among Christians

The Catholic Encyclopedia offers some doctrinal proofs of the Trinity, as well. In fact, the proofs are sufficient to consider the first four centuries only. The Encyclopedia, we note, makes reference to the Arian and Macedonian controversies. It is worth noting of the Arian controversy a few ideas regarding the Trinity. Karen Armstrong, in her book A History of God, points out that in the fourth century, a controversy arose surrounding Arius of Alexandria, who asked a simple question: How could Jesus Christ have been God in the same way as God the Father? (Armstrong, 107) The question would actually be undertaken by Athanasius, assistant to Bishop Alexander of Alexandria. The controversy was such that the emperor (Constantine) intervened and summoned a synod at Nicaea; Today Arius' name is a byword for heresy .... (108) That, as Armstrong notes, Arius may not even have been wrong, may be indicative of the nature of the Trinity. Part of the problem may have been the rising idea of creation ex nihilo, which does not derive from Genesis.

To derive the argument from Armstrong (108-110):

* Prior to ex nihlio, cosmologies including emanation and other relationships 'twixt Creator and Creation abounded in the developing Christian faith.
* Ex nihlio created a circumstance in which that relationship was bounded by a chasm 'twixt Man and God; hitherto, in an emanation scheme, for instance, creation was part of the substance of God. This connection disappears when God creates from nothing.
* Somehow Christ had enabled (humans) to cross the gulf that separated God from humanity. The question as how had he done it? (108)
* Christ, then, either belonged to a divine realm (contemporary sentiment had that realm reserved for God alone) or to the "fragile" created order.
* Arius and Athanasius put Christ on different sides of the gulf: Arius to the created order and Athanasius to the divine realm.
* Arius knew the scriptures well, and he produced an armory of texts to support his claim that Christ the Word could only be a creature like ourselves. (109)
* Jesus not God by nature; "promoted" to divine status, according to Arius.
* Arius had no intention of denigrating Jesus, as his enemies claimed. (109)
* (It) was because of (his) obedience unto death that God had raised him up to a specially exalted status and given him the divine title of Lord(kyrios). (110, cf. Philippians 2.6-11)
* Armstrong cites Athanasius, that God saw that all created nature, if left to its own principles, wasi n the flux and subject to dissolution. To prevent this and to keep the universe from disintegrating back into nonbeing, he made all things by his very own eternal Logos and endowed the creation with being. (Armstrong, 110; Athanasius, Against the Heathens)
* Armstrong summarizes Athanasius (110): If the Logos himself were a vulnerable creature, he would not be able to save mankind from extinction .... (This) salvation would have been impossible if the Logos himself had been a frail creature, who could himself lapse back into nothingness.

Thus we see the resolution at Nicaea of a savior who is more divine than human, As Armstrong points out: This made creation ex nihilo official Christian doctrine for the first time, insisting that Christ was no mere creature or aeon. The Creater and Redeemer were one. (110-111)

But that hardly resolved the issue. The "Arian controversy" lasted another 60 years. How serious was it? Arius did, apparently, regain imperial favor at one point, and Athanasius was exiled no fewer than five times. And the drama continues: Marcellus of Ancyra, Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory of Nazianzus ....

But what compels me to point this portion of the Trinitarian history out is the simple device that Athanasius used: the elevation of Christ as something more than human; something different than human.

Using Eusebius as a source (History of the Church, 3.36) we can establish that as early as 117 CE, Ignatius of Antioch, in epistles dictated while traveling to his martyrdom, undertook an attack against Docetism. Epistles to the Ephesians, Trallians, and Smyrnaeans discourage the heresy of believing Christ to not be human:
It is asserted by some who deny God--in other words, who have no faith--that His sufferings were not genuine (though in fact it is themselves in whom there is nothing genuine). If this is so, why am I now a prisoner? Why am I praying for a combat with the lions? For in that case, I am giving away my life for nothing, and all the things I have ever said about the Lord are untruths. (Trallians 10)
Incidentally, it is worth pointing out that Ignatius' anti-docetist Epistle to the Smyrnaeans also includes what is considered to be the first use of the word catholic in conjunction with the Church (Smyrnaeans 8).

Elaine Pagels' The Origin of Satan does an excellent job noting the political events related to the formation of the Gospels and the evangelization of the story. Consider that, progressively, the idea of Satan can be found first in Jews, then in pagan (Roman &c) cultures, and finally within the church. We might consider that between Ignatius and Athanasius, the Church had grown, first among Jews and then largely among Pagans; Irenaeus, of whom I've been critical before, came on the scene in 180 CE, some sixty years after Ignatius of Antioch. Many Gospels were pared away and the movement toward accusing heresy as a solution was well underway. By the time we reach Nicaea 145 years later, several movements have been put down as heretical.

Hopefully, this will all serve to demonstrate the political origin of the Trinity; its institutionalization came about in response to a vital question, and relies in part on a heresy--docetism--as shown by its historical and philosophical development.

3. Trinity: significance

I haven't the will to collect all the doctrines on the holy trinity I can find and regurgitate them for you here. We know that triune deities existed in the metaphysical during the foundtion and evolution of Christianity; perhaps it is a stylistic concession to the philosophy du jour. That the trinity is a political device shouldn't cheapen it; rather, it is like Coca-Cola: custom-flavored to your satisfaction. It doesn't really resolve anything,

The problem isn't that the idea of three-in-one is difficult. Most pagans understand at least the foundations of universal oneness, so three-in-one is a cinch. The best answer to the significance of the trinity, though, is to ask a Christian. When I was among the flock, it never quite made sense. It wasn't that the three-in-one didn't work, but that it didn't work by their (read Lutheran, Catholic, and ... well, for as much Father-Son-Holy Ghosting that goes on in the US, most post-Christian evangelicals skip the bit about trinity--too old-fashioned I guess) rules. Where the Triune Goddess can be looked at as "one being", merely maiden-mother-crone, the limitation of sequential time cannot apply to God, who is Alpha and Omega. Explanations of "personalities" and so forth bring to mind notions of Khidr and other Islamic facets of God, but here again we encounter the notion that Jesus was not fully human (docetism). It's just that I think those who don't share the faith might tend under given circumstances to put more thought into the faith than the faithful. After all, why does it matter if there's any legitimacy to the trinity? What does it matter if a heresy is behind the reason the trinity became so important that the Protestant reformation preserved it? After all, no man comes to the Father but through the Son and, as I understand it, this takes place by the grace of the Holy Spirit; as long as they believe in all three, I don't think you'll find much concern among modern Christians for the fact that the trinity is a political gambit. It, like the Bible and Jesus Himself, mean different things to the modern Christian than they did to those who came before.

Thus I present a few thoughts and facts regarding the notion of the Holy or Blessed Trinity. Humbly, and for your consideration ....

there's a haze in here, yes there is ....
Tiassa :cool:

(A note on the links: I hope you don't mind the odd tidbits for the writers' links; well, I won't apologize for the Armstrong-Buddhism link--it speaks well of her qualifications to be so diverse as to be a former Catholic nun who works at Leo Baeck College for the Study of Judaism and the Training of Rabbis and Teachers while being an honorary member of the Association of Muslim Social Sciences while writing a book on Buddhism.)
 
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Re: Three and Three for Trinity and We All Fall Down

Very nice and interesting post. Thanks for info.
peace
 
Heres aTrinity for you, Cerberus

The dog with three heads that Guarded the Underworld called Hades, the symbolism of it's three heads was of Past, Present and Future.

What a guard dog that can sense the oncoming threat before having to deal with it presently and still chomping at the bit in the past.

Of course there are many other trinity arrangements, take for instance the meaning of 6 Arms, when everybody who's normal has two... The only time you get 6 is if your trancing out at some dodgy rave. Those traces can symbolise the past, present and future too.
 
The Trinity and Ourselves

Originally posted by Markx:
“The Father is greater than I” (John 14:28 RSV).
People forget this and they say that Jesus is equal to the Father. Whom should we believe—Jesus or the people?

That's true... :)

Good post tiassa! :)

My explanation:

Well... 1+1+1=... 3? :D

In this case no... because we are talking metaphorically...
God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are like different points of view of the same "thing". Ok... is a kind of evolutionary thing. The three are Love. If you pay attention to the Bible you'll see that God is Love. Than, you'll see that Jesus is Christ made flesh. Christ is Love too. And the Holy Spirit is called in the Bible the "Comforter"... Love... :)

The Trinity means that the 3 kinds of Love together are Peace. Why? Because Love leads to peace. The whole Bible is actually a book that passes a message of Peace and Love to the world.

Jesus said that he would send a Comforter to us. Once you "plug in" the Comforter, you become aware of it, and you are able, by faith, to do miracles. You have to believe with your Spirit, which is a "projection" of God. Your goal is to find God within yourself which gives you power, Peace, Freedom, Love and Wisdom.

Some diagrams to explain what's to come... :D :

...........God
........../......\
Christ-------Holy Spirit

This is the Trinity.

God is the Highest Expression of Love.

Christ, expressed physically as Jesus, is the Second Expression of Love. Is the most perfect that a human being can get. And actually, Jesus could do much more than he did (like doing the same things Moses did). God made us to be like Him. But we are not Him. He is within us. He is our High-Self. We are our ego. Ego can't mix with the High-Self and can't be better than Christ.

Holy Spirit is the Thrid Expression of Love. It completes the Trinity giving Peace. The Holy Spirit is everywhere. Is the power of the human Love... Compassion.


Now the relationship between the Trinity and us:

...........God
........../......\
Christ-------Holy Spirit
.........\......./
.........Human
..........Being

Well... this is the Fourth Expression of the Four Main Powers of the Universe: ourselves. This relation represents Freedom. Why? Because this relationship with the Trinity gives us power enough to be free to do "whatever" we want. It also give us power, Peace, Wisdom, Freedom and Love. This is what the Bible says to "believe with your Heart". Is to believe with your Spirit. To believe that something is true before you can recognize it with your senses.

Does any Christian has something to add? Perhaps Bible quotes... I'm short in time to include them here...

Blessings,
Nelson
 
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Originally posted by Markx
But trust me for last 2000 years they are missing this message and justifying it by believing in ..........
Funny, I think that way about non-believers!?!

It is a sad situation but that's what happens when you don't question.
Funny, I think that way about many non-believers!?! Most people want their beliefs and ideas to be validated, or they rationalize why they believe in them.

I agree with you God was using to demonstrate how one should act.
Funny, I think that too about Jesus, that He was an example of how people should live in God's will!?!

And the most mis understood verse every single christian I met use to justify that he is son of is, " I and father are one". But one in what?? No one bother to read the context and try to use it as a major deal and disregarding all other verses and only remember this one.
Funny, I think that way about non-believers, someone finds a nugget, then takes it to a distant tangent!?! That's how cults & other movements start. But unless you are a Christian, I don't think that you will ever understand the Bible or Christianity. Because you will always look at it with your own preconceived ideas & biases. Can you really tell me you have none? And don't tell me you dissect all your beliefs, actions and ideas with the ruthlessness of cold logic. Nor can you be a Mr. Spock, living a neat & ordered life, with logic and reason supreme in your life and behavior? Would your cherished belief systems survive a thorough review?
 
Funny........how mis guided and blind you are.
Funny you missed Jesus's whole message and think he is Son of God.
Funny you read bible in your own language and understand totaly opposite.
Funny you can't prove your so called Holy trinity.
Funny even your own biblical experts deny the idea of trinity but you believed in it.
Funny that instead of following Jesus you start worshiping him. Even thou he told you to worship GOD the Father above.
Should I continue?? :eek: :eek:
 
Originally posted by Randolfo:
"And that is, as opposed to all those 100% facts you all live by?
You know, Communism was supposed to make a 'new man', they supposedly knew all the facts,
get millions murdered, etc...
You know, Science was supposed to make a 'new man', they supposedly knew all the facts,
get millions murdered, etc...
You know, Islam was supposed to make a 'new man', they supposedly knew all the facts,
get millions murdered, etc...
I know, Christianity was supposed to make a 'new man', they supposedly knew all the facts,
get millions murdered, etc...
NO excuses, unfortunately many people don't change inside when they claim to become Christians, but by saying Jesus is your Lord and Savior, you are supposed to change from being a murderer, liar, thief, etc...
I think being a Christian can be both the easiest & the hardest thing to do,
Easy, because you can just say you are one,
Hard, because you have to live a changed life afterwards."

That's true... :)
I totally agree :D

Blessings,
Nelson
 
Here is the proof that GOD in Bible was ONE God Not Christ not Holy Ghost and not a triuane GOD But one God. Now I challenge any one here to bring proof from Bible to prove their trinity.



One, Alone, None Other Texts

Old Testament Bible Texts referring to:
One Lord, Holy One, Mighty One, Strong One, Lofty One, etc.

Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Job 6:10 Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.

Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Ps 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth, O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.

Ps 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Ps 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

Isa 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Isa 1:24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:

Isa 5:19 That say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it!

Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 10:17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

Isa 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Isa 12:6 Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.

Isa 17:7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 29:23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.

Isa 30:11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

Isa 30:12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:

Isa 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Isa 30:29 Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the LORD, to the mighty One of Israel.

Isa 31:1 Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!

Isa 37:23 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Isa 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 41:16 Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 41:20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.

Isa 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

Isa 43:14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

Isa 43:15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

Isa 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Isa 47:4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Isa 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

Isa 49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Isa 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

Isa 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Isa 60:9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.

Isa 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Jer 50:29 Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense her according to her work; according to all that she hath done, do unto her: for she hath been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel.

Jer 51:5 For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel.

Ezek 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Dan 4:13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

Dan 4:23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Hab 1:12 Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

Hab 3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

Zech 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?



New Testament texts using "One" when referring to GOD
Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Matt 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

Matt 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Matt 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Mark 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Luke 4:34 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

John 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

John 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

Acts 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

1 Cor 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

1 Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Texts using "None other, None else" when referring to GOD
Exod 8:10 And he said, To morrow. And he said, Be it according to thy word: that thou mayest know that there is none like unto the LORD our God.

Deut 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Deut 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Exod 9:14 For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.

Deut 33:26 There is none like unto the God of Jeshurun, who rideth upon the heaven in thy help, and in his excellency on the sky.

2 Sam 7:22 Wherefore thou art great, O LORD God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

IKing 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

1 Chr 17:20 O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Isa 45:14 Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me

Jer 10:6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.

Joel 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Texts using "Alone" when referring to GOD

Deut 32:12 So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.

II Ki 19:15 And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.

Neh 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

Ps 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

Ps 136:4 To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Ps 86:10 For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.

Isa 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

Isa 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

Isa 37:16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself

Isa 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
 
More for Lost Christians..........

San Diego Bible Students


The Doctrine of the TRINITY...
Mystery or Confusion?
A Reverent Examination, by Christians, for Christians

"There is but One God, the Father."1 Corinthians 8:6



All who consider the issue agree that the doctrine of the Trinity is incomprehensible. Its most ardent proponents suppose this to be a strength -- that as we cannot comprehend the majesty and glory of the infinite Creator, so we cannot fathom his nature and being. Not so. The Creator has explicitly revealed himself through His Word as a mighty, unitary being, the great first cause of all things, having no equal, no predecessor and no successor. He is Jehovah by name, and God by title.

For 4000 years those who worshipped Him and trusted Him had no hint, no surmise, no suggestion that he was other than the single, unitary God He declared Himself to be. "Hear, O Israel, the LORD your God is One" (Deut. 6:4). "Know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD" (Isaiah 43:10, 11).


Christ — The Long Awaited Messiah!

The Jews were aware that God would send a Messiah (Hebrew) or Christ (Greek) -- one anointed by God as his prophet, his servant. Moses told them "The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken"(Deuteronomy 18:15). Isaiah said "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him" (Isaiah 42:1).

These prophecies — and many more like them — consistently describe Messiah as a highly honored subordinate of God Almighty. Jesus was that promised Messiah. He was no ordinary messenger.He was in fact the very son of God, so termed 47 times in the New Testament. Jesus performed every duty faithfully, and has now been exalted to the "right hand of the majesty on high" (Hebrews1:3). "God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows" (Hebrews1:9). Jesus, always an obedient son to his Heavenly Father, now exalted above all others, is still a devoted son and subordinate of the Heavenly Father.

He does not assume his honor, glory or service on his own. On the contrary, he receives them all at the hand of his Father and superior, God himself. "No man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God ... So also Christ glorified not himself to be made a high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son" (Hebrews 5:4, 5). "The Son of man came ... to the Ancient of days... and there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom" (Daniel 7:13, 14).


What is the Trinity?

It is a doctrine formulated in the 4th century to describe the view of some leading churchmen concerning the nature and relationship of God, Jesus and the holy Spirit. It was enunciated in a series of creeds: The Nicene Creed (325 ad), The Nicaeno-Constantinopolitan Creed (381 ad), and the Athanasian Creed (ca. 5th century ad). It took various forms and used multitudes of words so complex and enigmatic it is incomprehensible. Some Christians consider "trinity" simply to imply belief in God, Jesus and the holy Spirit — a broad platform all Christians can endorse. Differently, but still quite simply, the first use of this word in early Christian writings referred merely to the existence of "God, his Word, and his Wisdom" (Theophilus of Antioch, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 2, page 201). But as the doctrine evolved in the 4th-6th centuries, it became much more mysterious. It asserted that God is actually composed of three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all co-equal and co-eternal.

The Scriptural truth, on the other hand, is neither mysterious nor incomprehensible: God is one person, his son Jesus is a second person, and the holy Spirit is not a person at all. It is the spirit, power and influence of God. Jesus is subordinate to his Heavenly Father. God existed from eternity,but there was a time before the creation of his son Jesus when God was alone. However, let us examine four essential components of the trinitarian view, closely, against the scriptures.


(1) Who is God?

It is customary in trinitarian language to speak of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These are assumed to be proper titles, and used extensively. Yet in the Scriptures only one of these appears, "God the Father," and that not as a title, but an expression denoting that God is the Father. "There is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things ... and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things" (1 Corinthians 8:6). The term appears 11 times in the New Testament. By contrast, the terms "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit" appear zero times.

The word "God" appears about 1200 times in the New Testament. Nearly all of these refer — no surprise — to God himself. Not even one time does this word refer to the holy Spirit. However, as a word, "god" has a variety of applications. For example the Old Testament Hebrew word "elohim" (god) can describe any high dignitary (e.g. Abraham, Genesis 23:6). In the King James translation it is rendered variously: angels, God, gods, great, mighty, judges. Its Greek counterpart "theos" likewise has a broad usage. Strong's Concordance defines it as: "a deity,especially ... the supreme Divinity; fig. a magistrate." If this word can describe a magistrate, then it can certainly describe Jesus, and it is so used six times in the New Testament (John 1:1, 18, 20:28, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 1:8, 2 Peter 1:1). It is used in John 10:35 of the worshippers of Jehovah. Once it even refers to Satan (2 Corinthians 4:4).

None of these uses should confuse us about who is really the one and only supreme God of the universe, the one both Jews and Christians naturally and freely term "God" — Jehovah, the Almighty God of all. However two texts, frequently cited in support of the trinity, deserve special attention:John 1:1 (discussed separately later), and John 20:28. The latter text records the startled exclamation of praise and adoration by Thomas on seeing the resurrected Christ: "My Lord and my God." Does this mean Christ was verily great Jehovah Himself? Of course not. These (god, magistrate) is the term of great respect, awe and worship Thomas attributed to his Lord and Master. Indeed, in the very same chapter, Jesus explained to Mary Magdalene that he had not yet ascended "unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God" (John 20:17). Clearly Jesus recognized almighty God as distinct from, and superior to, himself. God is, as Paul declared, "the Father." No scripture uses the expressions "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit"!


(2) Are Jesus and God Co-Equal?

According to the Scriptures, they clearly are NOT equal. In every case, where God and Jesus are referred to in one context, Jesus is subordinate, and the Father is superior. Here are a handful of the many texts on this issue:

"Why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, that is, God." (Luke 18:19)
"My Father is Greater than I" (John 14:28)
"The Head of Christ is God" (1 Corinthians 11:3)
"[Jesus] sat down on the right hand of God" (Hebrews 10:12)
"Then shall the Son also himself be subject ... that God may be all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28)

Perhaps most telling of all is that Jesus recognizes God as his own God -- his superior, to whom he renders adoration, worship and praise (Matthew 27:46, John 20:17, Ephesians 1:17, Revelation1:6). No scripture says Jesus is co-equal!


(3) Are Jesus and God Co-Eternal?

In the sense that both will always exist, yes. But that is true of angels and saints and all the obedient.The intent of Co-Eternal is that they always existed eternally from ages past, neither preceding the other. This is not true of Jesus. The Scriptures affirm that Jesus was "the beginning of the Creation of God" (Revelation 3:14), and the "firstborn of every creature" (Colossians 1:15). Therefore he had a beginning. There was a time before that when God was alone. Proverbs 8:22 says of Jesus, "The LORD created me the first of his works long ago, before all else that he made. I was formed in earliest times, at the beginning, before earth itself" (Proverbs 8:22, 23, NRSV). No scripture says Jesus was co-eternal!


(4) Is the Holy Spirit a Person?

Ordinarily there would be no question about this. The holy Spirit of God anointed Jesus at Jordan, who received it not "by measure" (John 3:34). It is "poured out" and "shed" on others (Acts 10:45,Acts 2:17,33, Joel 2:28, Zechariah 12:10). Persons are not "poured," "shed" or "measured," but the spirit, power and influence of God is properly described this way.

The holy Spirit of God is variously described in Scripture as the spirit of Truth, Holiness, Life, Faith, Wisdom, Grace, and Glory. The Scripts also speak of an opposite spirit of Jealousy, Judgment, Burning, Heaviness, Whoredoms, Infirmity, Divination, Bondage, Slumber, Fear, Antichrist and Error. Do we suppose these are persons?

The Scriptures speak of the spirit of Jacob, Elijah, Tiglath-Pilesser, the Philistines, Cyrus, Princes, the Medes, Zerubbabel, and Joshua. Are these spirits all persons?

Why, then, would any suppose the "holy Spirit of God" (Ephesians 4:30) to be a separate being? Actually no one would (and no one did) until the time mysteries and philosophies began to enter Christian dogma. (More of that later.) But today, centuries later, some suppose a support for the personhood of the holy Spirit because of the pronouns used for it in the New Testament. For example, "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth ..." (John 16:13). And of the Comforter Jesus said "I will send him unto you" (verse 7). It sounds like a person because of the pronouns "he" and "him."

But a little examination into the Greek explains the issue. When "comforter" is meant the pronoun is masculine, but when "spirit" is intended the pronoun is neuter. Literally it could be translated "it will guide you ..." It is simply a matter of grammar, not of personality. The Greek word for"comforter" is a masculine noun, and that for "spirit" is a neuter noun. Therefore the pronouns necessarily follow the gender of the noun. (Actually the genders in verse 13 are supplied by the Greek verbs rather than by explicit pronouns, but you get the idea.) No scripture says the holy Spirit of God is a person!


John 1:1

The only passage which even comes close to teaching the Trinity is 1 John 5:7, 8. But today it is common knowledge that the essential parts of this passage were not original scripture. The words at issue are an embellishment added to the text by an over-zealous scribe centuries after John died,and no reputable modern version even includes them. For this reason the focus of attention has turned to John 1:1. Clearly this does not teach the Trinity per se, because it does not even mention the holy Spirit, and one cannot have a "trinity" without three parties. But it does say "the Word was God" (King James translation), and this is close enough to one of the pieces of the Trinity to cause interest. What did John mean by this?


There are three popular views:

(1) He meant Jesus really was "God Himself"
(2) He meant Jesus was "God-like"
(3) He meant Jesus was "a god."


Trinitarians are naturally drawn to the first view. But (other than all we have said above), this view is in danger of proving TOO MUCH — that Jesus and God are the same person. Indeed, many trinitarians assert this without recognizing this is more like the heresy of Sabellius than the orthodox trinity.

The problem becomes apparent when one compares John 1:1 with 1 John 1:2. Both texts are from the same author, about the same time, and express the same thoughts. John 1:1 says the Word was "with God," 1 John 1:2 says the Word was "with the Father." Clearly John intends that "God" was"the Father." Thus if John intends that the Word was "God Himself," he must mean the Word was "the Father" — a conclusion no orthodox trinitarian can embrace. For this reason the majority of translators, including trinitarian translators, do not hold view one!

Thus view 2. "When John said that the Word was God he was not saying that Jesus is identical
with God; he was saying that Jesus is so perfectly the same as God in mind, in heart, in being, that in Jesus we perfectly see what God is like" (William Barclay, The Gospel of John, Vol. 1, page 17). In this camp are the following: William Barclay, Martin Vincent, J.P. Lange, Robert Young, BrookFoss Westcott, Kenneth Wuest, George Turner, Julius Mantey, H.E. Dana, Moulton and Moffat.Typical of this view is the REB translation: "The Word was in God's presence, and what God was,the Word was." It is possible that this was John's point. However, View Three actually fits the context still better.As many Bible students are aware, the words "a" and "an" (called indefinite articles) do not exist in the Greek language. If one wished to say "I saw a tree," in Greek it would be "I saw tree" and everyone would know the intent is "a" tree. Therefore a translator would automatically supply it.This is done everywhere in the New Testament where the English word "a" or "an" appears.

So in John 1:1. The text actually says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was [a?] God." Should the translator supply the intended "a" or not? That is the question. Contrary to many vocal claims on this issue, it is a sound and reasonable thing to do. C.H. Dodd, driving force of the NEB, acknowledges "As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted." (Technical Papers for the Bible Translator, 28, Jan. 1977, page 101ff, cited from James Parkinson, "The Herald," Sept-Oct 1966, page 23). Notice that the translators of the King James version had no hesitation in using "a god" in Acts 28:6 where the context makes it obvious. (It also belongs in John 10:33, as the logic of Jesus' reply shows.)

A very good reason for adding "a" in John 1:1 is John 1:18, but the point is hidden in the King James version. Today it is generally acknowledged that the better, earlier Greek manuscripts of this verse refer to Jesus as "the only begotten god" (see the NASB for example). John there says no one has ever seen "God," but "the only begotten god, which is in the bosom of the Father," has appeared to declare what God is about. First it is clear that by "God" John means "the Father." Second it is clear that John has two gods in mind -- God himself, the unseen, and the son of God, Jesus, who in his own right is also a mighty being, "a god." Since John 1:18 distinguishes two mighty beings, it is apparent that John 1:1 also distinguishes two mighty beings.


Whence, Then, The Trinity?

Where did this doctrine come from? When did it come? For what Reason? How did it take hold? Probably it developed as an over-zealous response to the vital gnostic heresies which began to surface even in John's day, and afflicted the church for about two centuries. Gnostics proposed that Jesus was not actually the Messiah — some say he was an apparition, or a materialization, others a simple man possessed for a time by the Christ — but all agreed that the Anointed, the Messiah, the Christ, did not suffer and die on the cross.

This fundamentally undercuts the Truth of Christianity, and against such views were John's strong warnings in 1 John 1:22,23, 4:1-3, 2 John 7. Indeed, these epistles of John and even the Gospel of John, read with the backdrop of these heresies in mind, take on a fresh and deeper meaning than ever before. It is for this reason that John was forceful in affirming that the very Jesus "which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled" (1 John 1:1) was the very Word of life who existed from ages before with the Father, the agent of all the Father's creative work from the beginning. This very one did indeed suffer and die on the cross for our sins. John was there when it happened, a first-hand witness. "And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe" (John19:35).

As John passed from the scene the gnostic heresies grew in strength, causing a severe pressure within the early Christian community. In combatting this error, and in emphasizing the significance,uniqueness and importance of Jesus, the very Son of God himself, it was natural to attach more and more weight to him, even over-emphasizing his office and majesty beyond that allowed in the scriptures. Little by little a greater and greater image of him was put forward, resulting in such erroreous views as Sabellius put forward in the 3rd century, claiming that Jesus was but an expression of the one God, and not a lesser though glorious separate being. This was generally rejected, but in the end a sad compromise was reached which left distorted the real verities regarding Christ, the highly honored Son of the Most High God.

The early affirmation of the Church fathers that Christ was both created and subordinate gave way to new theories, until the old adherents were moved to a staunch defense. The great Arian controversy erupted as a result, philosophy was argued in the name of Christian doctrine, and a great rift formed in the fledgling body of Christ.


The Nicene Creed

About this time, in the early 4th century AD, Constantine came to power, first of the so-called Christian Emperors. The foment and dissension was so apparent, and so divisive to his empire, he insisted the breach be healed, by force if necessary. Under his influence hordes of former pagans were becoming "Christian" in name, and there was an urgency to resolve these issues in a way conducive to the growth and tranquillity of his domain.

With this backdrop a Council was convened at Nice, and through much tumult was forged the highly ambiguous and strangely worded Nicene Creed, which has been an enigma ever since. No wonder. The language used to "settle" the debate was drawn not from scripture, but from the very pagan sources the emperor wished to make comfortable with their newly acquired "faith."


The Historical Buildup

To grasp the enormity and significance of what occured at Nice, we need to review some of the historical FACTS regarding the Trinity.

Fact One — The word Trinity is nowhere found in the scriptures.

Fact Two — Not one of the Apostolic Fathers (Clement, Barnabas, Ignatius, Mathetes, Polycarp, Papias, Justin Martyr) mentioned this doctrine in any of the 1200 pages of text they left us.

Fact Three — When the word "Trinity" first appeared in Christian writings it meant nothing like it does today. It simply implied the existence of God, his Word, and Wisdom.

Fact Four — Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Origen, Novatian, Arnobius and Lactantius (all early and revered Christian writers) explicitly affirmed that the Heavenly Father alone is the supreme God and that Jesus is subordinate to His will and authority (The Lord our God is one Lord, Bible Students Congregation of New Brunswick, page 2). "During the first three centuries ... almost all of the early church Fathers ... admitted the inferiority of the Son to the Father" (Alvan Lamson, Church of the First Three Centuries).

Fact Five — The early formal statement of Christian belief never mentions the word "Trinity" or any of its concepts. It is termed the "Apostles' Creed" (though not composed by the apostles). It was used extensively in the 2nd and 3rd centuries of the Christian era. As regards God and Jesus, it affirms exactly what we affirm. It says simply:

"I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth. And in Jesus Christ, his only son our Lord: who was conceived by the holy spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God,the Father Almighty: From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. I believe in the holy spirit; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen"


Language Lifted from Heathen Sources

Now compare that simple statement of belief, so clear and brief, to the Creed produced from
the Council at Nice in 325 AD. (Our comments in Bold Italic.) "We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God begotten of the Father, Only-begotten, (so far so good, the language is mostly from the Apostles Creed. But now follows the strange new terminology) that is of the substance of the Father; God of God; Light of Light; very God of very God; begotten, not made; of the same substance with the Father; (end of mystical language, back to scriptural language) by whom all things were made, both things in heaven and things in earth; who for us men and our salvation descended and became flesh, was made man, suffered, and rose again the third day. He ascended into heaven; he cometh to judge the quick and dead. And in the Holy Spirit. (Now resumes the new concepts, full of bitterness to dissenters.) But those that say there was a time when he was not; or that he was not before he was begotten; or that he was made from that which had no being; or whom affirm the Son of God to be of any other substance or essence, or created, (despite three clear scriptures!) or variable, or mutable, such persons doth the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematize."

Note these strange, philosophical, mystical expressions — "one substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God." Such strange words, foreign alike to the word and sense of any Scripture. Where, oh where do these come from? Who invented them? Whence there source? The answer is both startling, and chilling. John Newton, in Origin of Triads and Trinities, wrote:

"With the first glimpse of a distinct religion and worship among the most ancient races, we find them grouping their gods in triads. ... [now citing Professor Sayce from Gifford Lectures and Hibbert Lectures] 'The indebtedness of Christian theological theory to ancient Egyptian dogma is nowhere more striking than in the doctrine of the Trinity. The very same terms used of it by Christian theologians meet us again in the inscriptions and papyri of Egypt.' [Newton continues] And now we see some meaning in the strange phrases that have puzzled so many generations in the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds, such as 'Light of Light,Very God of Very God, Begotten not Made, Being of one Substance with the Father.' These are all understandable enough if translated into the language of the Solar Trinity [worshipped in ancient Egypt], but without this clue to their meaning, they become sheer nonsense or contradictions ... The simplicity and symmetry of the old Sun Trinities were utterly lost in forming these new Christian Creeds on the old Pagan models. ... The [pagan] trinities had all the prestige of a vast antiquity and universal adoption, and could not be ignored. The gentile converts therefore eagerly accepted the Trinity compromise, and the Church baptized it. Now at length we know its origin." (John Newton, Origin of Triads and Trinities, Liverpool, 1909, pp. 20-21, 25-27). Will Durant, the popular Catholic historian of our day, wrote: "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it ... pagan cultures contributed to the syncretist results. From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity ..." (Caesar and Christ, page 595) (Lamson, Newton & Durant cited from Charles Redeker, To Us there is One God, June 1978).

No wonder the confusion. No wonder the controversy. No wonder the debate. No wonder that all Christendom was torn by disputes about the Trinity.


Why is this Important?

Because it is a travesty upon the Truth, one which has endured for centuries. Like the doctrine of Purgatory, it took hold upon the church as the Dark Ages began to creep over Europe. But as the lingering mists of mystery and confusion fade, the simple Truths of the Scripture sparkle the brighter. How clear the scriptural statements. Jesus, God's chief agent from all creation, the one who was a treasure to his heart, "daily his delight," God sent to be the redeemer of men. He was made flesh, dwelt among us, and gave his life in death so that Adam and his race could be freed. He gave the Ransom with his own flesh. In due course he will introduce his Kingdom among men, Satan shall be thoroughly bound, and the Millennial Kingdom of righteousness be established in all the world. Even now a transition of the ages is upon us which will yield this blessed result.

Meanwhile we have the special privilege of a personal walk with the Master, to receive if "faithful unto death" a crown of life divine, immortal, in the heavenly courts. We shall have the honor of reigning with Christ in glory. At that time we shall assist our master in delivering the whole world out of bondage, and into faith, until "the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the
Lord, as the waters cover the sea" (Revelation 2:10, 20:6, Isaiah 11:9). "Hallelujah, What a Savior!"



SAN DIEGO BIBLE STUDENTS • BOX 15701 • SAN DIEGO, CA • 92115-0701
 
The Trinity in the Bible:

Markx,

Christianism is a Monotheist religion. There is any Christian that says that there are three Gods (eventhough I agree that some Christians mistakenly worships Jesus).

The Trinity doesn't say there are three Gods, but the right interpretation should be that Christ and Holy Spirit are like a projection of the power of God on Earth. They are the vehicle which express God's will and power.

Want proof that God, Jesus and Holy Spirit are "completely" separated? Sure...

Acts 1:1-8 :

"1 The first account I composed, Theophilus, about all that Jesus began to do and teach,
2 until the day when He was taken up, after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen.
3 To these He also presented Himself alive, after his suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days, and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.
4 And gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, 'Which,' He said, 'you heard of from Me;
5 for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.'
6 And so when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, 'Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?'
7 He said to them, 'It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own autorithy;
8 but you shall receive power when the Holy Sipirt has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.' "

Explanations...

In verse 2 "... after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles whom He had chosen."
This says that Jesus has chosen the apostles but was the Holy Spirit that told Him to give the orders.

In verse 4 "... but to wait for what the Father had promised 'Which', He said, 'you heard of from Me..."
This clearly says that Jesus and God are separated (of course not as much as we are...).

In verse 5 " you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.' "
This says that Jesus and Holy Spirit are separated...
When Jesus was on earth, He was the centre of the Power of God. After His ressurection, He sent the Holy Spirit, The Comforter as He says, to earth. The Holy Spirit is everywhere. When He was alive, people had to seek Him to be cured by their sicknesses. Now, the Holy Spirit is accesable everywhere for everyone.

In verse 7, Jesus says that God has His own authorithy, so, He is NOT God. Once, Jesus' will was different than God's will. It happened when Jesus was in the Gethsemane Garden. You can read it in Matthew 26:38-46. This proves that Jesus was human and had fear as we do. He had fear to die on the cross.

In verse 8, you can see that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not the same. He said that the Holy Spirit would come upon you... He is NOT the Holy Spirit.

As you see, a single part of the Bible already proofs that there is a Trinity. It's like a team that works for the same goals.
They are NOT the same, but they are intimately connected.

Blessings,
Nelson
 
Re: The Trinity in the Bible:

Well, these are your assumtions, possiblities not the the fact. One can get totaly different meaning out of those veses, You justify them for trinity one can justify that for something else. But the fact remain the same. There is no trinity. You can called it if you like, also does not matter how much you twist the wording or concept. Trinity with holy ghost, Jesus and Father will remain the same. That's what 95% of christians believe but trust me I can fill this thread with proofs from chrisitan scholars and only from christians who will give detail insight of this concept. But I won't take your time. I know you will not believe in any of those and I won't believe in what you believe in.

The fact is, Christians of today messed up their relgion so bad that they can't get out of it any more. You can find millions definaitons of single verse from different goup of churches or individuals. You can find hundreds of versions of bible and so called many original manuscripts and none two are alike. It is pretty sad situation, I don't know if you know about this or not but I say please think seriously.

Thanks.

I can give you more insight on trinity only if u like.
 
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