:shrug: I was boggled by your insanely bad English:
You also said "citizens". Plural.
Zionist piracy
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:shrug: I was boggled by your insanely bad English:
You also said "citizens". Plural.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
So what then, two states?
“ The newest Israeli mobile missile and artillery defense system, Iron Dome, will soon be deployed in the field, according to an IDF … Iron Dome, developed by {Israeli}Rafael, is designed to defend Israeli towns and cities against short-range missiles, rockets and artillery. … Defense Ministry Director Pinchas Bukhris said that Iron Dome "will alter the political and security situation of Israel on the northern and southern fronts." …
While Iron Dome is effective against short-range threats, the Israeli systems known as the Magic Wand and Arrow are designed to counter other missile attacks. Magic Wand, also known as David's Sling, is an anti-missile system for medium-to-long-range threats. Also developed by Rafael, in conjunction with the American defense contractor Raytheon, the system is slated to be deployed in coming years.
The Arrow 3 missile defense system was developed by Israel Aerospace Industries and the American Boeing aerospace company. It is designed to intercept and destroy long-range ballistic missiles. …
From: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/135406
Billy T comment:
Finally, I am beginning to understand another reason why Israel has not deployed the CIWS* to kill 100% of the Gaza Rockets – There is no profit for major defense contractors in taking the older versions from warehouses and setting them up near the Israeli towns the Gaza rockets can reach. The navies of NATO and Israel for three decades have used CIWS (Close In Weapon System) as the last ditch defense of their ship against very difficult to stop curse missiles, such as the even the 20 year old French supersonic, sea skimming and weaving “exocet.” (“Sea skimming” means that it is less than 10 feet above the wave crests so the defending ship’s radar tracking it gets a lot of back scatter from the waves for Doppler filters to remove.)
The original versions of CIWS would be more than adequate to shoot down the slow Gaza rockets, but both for bullet economy and to avoid the gun jamming the rate of fire could be only 10% of capacity. There have been 3 or 4 later improved versions. Israel must have many dozens of the earlier generations of CIWS stored in warehouses. The US has mounted some of their older versions on flat bed trucks in Iraq for defense against mortar shells, which being smaller and faster are much harder to hit that the Gaza rockets which are essentially stationary at the peak of their trajectory.
*How CIWS works: CIWS is multi-barrel, very rapid fire, gun. It is fully automatic and controlled by its own radar, which acquires the target and also tracts the outgoing bullets it is shooting to converge that stream of bullets onto the target. It is a “fire until target killed” system. The kill of the target is recognized by its rapid drop in speed (Doppler detected). I.e. when one of the bullets impacts the target, its kinetic energy at least tears pieces of the target off but usually will explode the target’s high explosive warhead.
The Iron Dome system will fire rockets. It will be able to intercept greater range rockets fired from Lebanon, which are guided and can threaten many Israelis living in the larger cities. Its defensive, high-speed rockets will cost about 100 times more than the Gaza rockets. ( My guess) where as the CIWS bullets need to kill a Gaza rocket are cost only about 10% of the Gaza rocket. In a year ~1200 Gaza rockets are fired into Israel. Thus, probably both for economic reasons and the need for one or two Israelis to be killed as justification for the High Kill Ratio policy, the Gaza rocket will not be shot down by the iron dome rockets. Iron dome system may also use the same counter battery artillery fire than I suggest back in 2005, but iron dome focus (read corporate profits) is on the anti-missile rockets that can stop the longer range threats Israel is expecting will be more common in the future. (Israeli's problem is still getting worse so it defenses must improve.)
While Iron Dome is effective against short-range threats, the Israeli systems known as the Magic Wand and Arrow are designed to counter other missile attacks. Magic Wand, also known as David's Sling, is an anti-missile system for medium-to-long-range threats. Also developed by Rafael, in conjunction with the American defense contractor Raytheon, the system is slated to be deployed in coming years.
The Arrow 3 missile defense system was developed by Israel Aerospace Industries and the American Boeing aerospace company. It is designed to intercept and destroy long-range ballistic missiles. …
From: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/135406
Billy T comment:
Finally, I am beginning to understand another reason why Israel has not deployed the CIWS* to kill 100% of the Gaza Rockets – There is no profit for major defense contractors in taking the older versions from warehouses and setting them up near the Israeli towns the Gaza rockets can reach. The navies of NATO and Israel for three decades have used CIWS (Close In Weapon System) as the last ditch defense of their ship against very difficult to stop curse missiles, such as the even the 20 year old French supersonic, sea skimming and weaving “exocet.” (“Sea skimming” means that it is less than 10 feet above the wave crests so the defending ship’s radar tracking it gets a lot of back scatter from the waves for Doppler filters to remove.)
The original versions of CIWS would be more than adequate to shoot down the slow Gaza rockets, but both for bullet economy and to avoid the gun jamming the rate of fire could be only 10% of capacity. There have been 3 or 4 later improved versions. Israel must have many dozens of the earlier generations of CIWS stored in warehouses. The US has mounted some of their older versions on flat bed trucks in Iraq for defense against mortar shells, which being smaller and faster are much harder to hit that the Gaza rockets which are essentially stationary at the peak of their trajectory.
*How CIWS works: CIWS is multi-barrel, very rapid fire, gun. It is fully automatic and controlled by its own radar, which acquires the target and also tracts the outgoing bullets it is shooting to converge that stream of bullets onto the target. It is a “fire until target killed” system. The kill of the target is recognized by its rapid drop in speed (Doppler detected). I.e. when one of the bullets impacts the target, its kinetic energy at least tears pieces of the target off but usually will explode the target’s high explosive warhead.
The Iron Dome system will fire rockets. It will be able to intercept greater range rockets fired from Lebanon, which are guided and can threaten many Israelis living in the larger cities. Its defensive, high-speed rockets will cost about 100 times more than the Gaza rockets. ( My guess) where as the CIWS bullets need to kill a Gaza rocket are cost only about 10% of the Gaza rocket. In a year ~1200 Gaza rockets are fired into Israel. Thus, probably both for economic reasons and the need for one or two Israelis to be killed as justification for the High Kill Ratio policy, the Gaza rocket will not be shot down by the iron dome rockets. Iron dome system may also use the same counter battery artillery fire than I suggest back in 2005, but iron dome focus (read corporate profits) is on the anti-missile rockets that can stop the longer range threats Israel is expecting will be more common in the future. (Israeli's problem is still getting worse so it defenses must improve.)
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Yes, until friendlier relations can be generated to begin merging the two.
I like this thread, as you were please, because it's awesome nobody's fightin but ideas&ologies here.
/"member" hat (so embarrassing those)
saving changes I am also tickled pinko to see the Palestine-supportive community in rediscovery of the power of nonviolence. Zionists are so afraid of nonviolence, the most radical among them will try ruthlessly to spin it otherwise.
Peace flotilla holy roller...
FYI I'm pleased to see lot is being leaked and posted at Wikipedia about this.
A bin Forrest-Gump might say "Ahm sorry I'm havin a celebration in your Pirate Party." But I am, I think this is wonderful (and it's too bad people died but it's going so save many more). Or peace is martyr, or let him speak for himself, nobody ever called him an anti-Semite in his assessment of assholes:
I raise a toast to the people with the khutspa to ride those boats (the larger more vulnerable vessels) whom I would be proud to call shipmates. Any volunteers for a SciForums charter to Palestine, BYOB, lawyersguns money & stuff? I have an old buddy from Beirut who grew up to be a sea captain, and knows how people book these things. I could put down presently reading another history of the Berlin Airlift, maybe stop lamenting how boring present life is for a while. I could also go to sea, if there's wifi. And a short cruise in Greece before the whirlwhind tour of Ashdod. I'm feeling ready to get out and save changes, we need a lot of them everywhere. What about you?
Yeah, that's where I thought to too. Some p0thead in full-body ninja speedos shooting at my ass from a Zodiac.
Sounds like a fun holiday to me. I even daresay (seriously) it's fun to be "shot at" so long you're not being personally targeted. Makes for fun stories to tell, and all the more so if some don't believe them.
To friends far and wide, and on any side- Next year in Jerusalem!
:cheers:
eace:
[/back to center]
/"member" hat (so embarrassing those)
saving changes I am also tickled pinko to see the Palestine-supportive community in rediscovery of the power of nonviolence. Zionists are so afraid of nonviolence, the most radical among them will try ruthlessly to spin it otherwise.
Peace flotilla holy roller...
FYI I'm pleased to see lot is being leaked and posted at Wikipedia about this.
A bin Forrest-Gump might say "Ahm sorry I'm havin a celebration in your Pirate Party." But I am, I think this is wonderful (and it's too bad people died but it's going so save many more). Or peace is martyr, or let him speak for himself, nobody ever called him an anti-Semite in his assessment of assholes:
Forrest Gump said:
I raise a toast to the people with the khutspa to ride those boats (the larger more vulnerable vessels) whom I would be proud to call shipmates. Any volunteers for a SciForums charter to Palestine, BYOB, lawyers
Yeah, that's where I thought to too. Some p0thead in full-body ninja speedos shooting at my ass from a Zodiac.
Pffffffft!
Sounds like a fun holiday to me. I even daresay (seriously) it's fun to be "shot at" so long you're not being personally targeted. Makes for fun stories to tell, and all the more so if some don't believe them.
henley said:
To friends far and wide, and on any side- Next year in Jerusalem!
:cheers:
eace:[/back to center]
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since this lucy shows an affinity for bestowing legitimacy thru historical justifications...........
From underground terrorist groups to the political mainstream
Immediately after the end of the war, Menachem Begin, leader of the Irgun, transformed the Irgun into a political party, Herut, in opposition to the official Revisionists. Vehemently opposed to any concessions to the Arabs and an agreement with Abdullah that had absorbed the West Bank into his kingdom of Transjordan, now renamed Jordan, Begin glorified the Irgun’s underground terrorism and its role in driving out the British. His inflammatory language and style were more than a little reminiscent of the nationalist ethos of Eastern Europe and Pilsudksi’s military nationalism in Poland during the 1930s.
Committed to the recovery of Palestine, he and the Herut party denounced those who opposed such a perspective as the enemies of the Jewish people. Coming after the sinking of the Altalena, the Irgun arms ship, at the hands of the Labour Zionists and in which several members of the Irgun were killed, it was a virtual declaration of civil war against Ben Gurion. Not a few thought that the Herut might mount a putsch.
In the first elections, where nearly all the political parties claimed some affiliation to socialism, Begin’s Herut party was the largest non-socialist party, winning 11 percent of the vote and 14 out of the 120-member Knesset. The official Revisionists won no seats at all. Begin assumed the mantle of Revisionism and became the leader of the right-wing opposition to the Labour Zionists.
Immediately after the end of the war, Menachem Begin, leader of the Irgun, transformed the Irgun into a political party, Herut, in opposition to the official Revisionists. Vehemently opposed to any concessions to the Arabs and an agreement with Abdullah that had absorbed the West Bank into his kingdom of Transjordan, now renamed Jordan, Begin glorified the Irgun’s underground terrorism and its role in driving out the British. His inflammatory language and style were more than a little reminiscent of the nationalist ethos of Eastern Europe and Pilsudksi’s military nationalism in Poland during the 1930s.
Committed to the recovery of Palestine, he and the Herut party denounced those who opposed such a perspective as the enemies of the Jewish people. Coming after the sinking of the Altalena, the Irgun arms ship, at the hands of the Labour Zionists and in which several members of the Irgun were killed, it was a virtual declaration of civil war against Ben Gurion. Not a few thought that the Herut might mount a putsch.
In the first elections, where nearly all the political parties claimed some affiliation to socialism, Begin’s Herut party was the largest non-socialist party, winning 11 percent of the vote and 14 out of the 120-member Knesset. The official Revisionists won no seats at all. Begin assumed the mantle of Revisionism and became the leader of the right-wing opposition to the Labour Zionists.
/holding it in until lucy replies (groan).
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
I've been groaning but I didn't want to break your spirit
aaaaaaugh! sml
Sorry for the distraction, I'm just hoping Lucy will set it up so nicely again so I can KICK IT.
I was hoping this thread would beat "Supernova From Experimentation At Fermilab" thread but it looks like its dead here.
What Israel is doing to Gaza is without moral or ethical justification - it is "allowed" by power only.spidergoat said:
They're all crazy, homicidal maniacs except Israel. And they've been like that, but somehow without actually acting on the premise, for more than fifty years now.spidergoat said:
Yes, we heard that too.
We just don't believe it. Why do you?
Odd how consistently the Palestinians seem to create these illegitimate, terroristic regimes to oppress and abuse them over and over again - each new one worse than the last. It's almost as if some malevolent outside agency had placed a curse on their politics, prevented the decent and honest and ordinary Palestinians from governing their own lives.lucy said:
In some circumstances, failing to return the stolen and the usurped is a continuing violation of human rights.lucy said:
When accompanied by the miseries and evils of blockade, the laying of siege to a governed people pinned in by walls, imposition of deprivations and hardships enabled by the theft of resources, that theft of land and water and homes becomes even more clearly a matter of human rights.
They have a right to crush Israel based on Israel's nature and behavior toward them, in self defense.lucy said:
Israel has no such justification. The entire scene is of Israel's creation and maintenance. Israel is the aggressor, the expanding and occupying and usurping and attacking and blockading power.
The profit disincentive may be a factor, but you have to realize that Israel needs these rockets - without a few rockets once in a while, Israel's behavior would be impossible to justify to the US public.billy said:
60 pages, ~1200 post since the OP at 05-31-10, 04:03 AM surely has the recorder for rate of posting at least. (That is probably Brazil time so I will edit and tell time of this post.) this post is: Today, 06-06-10, 05:50 PM #1194. I will let someone else compute the posting rate. I bet it is 25 times greater than Paul's thread.I was hoping this thread would beat "Supernova From Experimentation At Fermilab" thread but it looks like its dead here.
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Put that in your pipeline and smoke it. How many complaints and warnings? Not too many, but I haven't checked.
I like this thread, as you were please, because it's awesome nobody's fightin but ideas&ologies here.
/"member" hat (so embarrassing those)
saving changes I am also tickled pinko to see the Palestine-supportive community in rediscovery of the power of nonviolence. Zionists are so afraid of nonviolence, the most radical among them will try ruthlessly to spin it otherwise.
Peace flotilla holy roller...
FYI I'm pleased to see lot is being leaked and posted at Wikipedia about this.
A bin Forrest-Gump might say "Ahm sorry I'm havin a celebration in your Pirate Party." But I am, I think this is wonderful (and it's too bad people died but it's going so save many more). Or peace is martyr, or let him speak for himself, nobody ever called him an anti-Semite in his assessment of assholes:
I raise a toast to the people with the khutspa to ride those boats (the larger more vulnerable vessels) whom I would be proud to call shipmates. Any volunteers for a SciForums charter to Palestine, BYOB, lawyersgunsmoney & stuff? I have an old buddy from Beirut who grew up to be a sea captain, and knows how people book these things. I could put down presently reading another history of the Berlin Airlift, maybe stop lamenting how boring present life is for a while. I could also go to sea, if there's wifi. And a short cruise in Greece before the whirlwhind tour of Ashdod. I'm feeling ready to get out and save changes, we need a lot of them everywhere. What about you?
Yeah, that's where I thought to too. Some p0thead in full-body ninja speedos shooting at my ass from a Zodiac.
Pffffffft!
Sounds like a fun holiday to me. I even daresay (seriously) it's fun to be "shot at" so long you're not being personally targeted. Makes for fun stories to tell, and all the more so if some don't believe them.
To friends far and wide, and on any side- Next year in Jerusalem!
:cheers:
[/back to center]
Yeah, I agree...the non violence of Palestinian protesters have really stumped Israel.
It has and will continue to do.
I think it's because Palestinian protester non-violence is deceptively effective, especially as it is reported in the news.
I guess all those Hamas rockets are just meaningless because the worst they could do is kill Jewish people who aren't "supposed" to be there in the first place?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
@Iceaura
@Iceaura
I have said in previous posts that its in part of Israeli dominance that has caused the opposition, generations after the fact, to remain fiercely opposed, but guess what? That is not going to be an excuse in the long run. Sorry that explanation can only go so far. Basically they are going to have to take a REALISTIC look at the situation and re-invent themselves. Who am I talking about? Hamas. if Hamas and its ideology indeed represents the Palestinian people…well…then yes they really will need god on their side.
Iceaura: In some circumstances, failing to return the stolen and the usurped is a continuing violation of human rights.
Show me legal precedence. Show me where a modern State returned land they previously acquired due to war that was returned. In terms of 'ethnic cleansing', where they are subsequently removed from land that was acquired through intimidation, like bulldozing someones home and claiming the land and then moving those who represent your group, I would like you to show me a historic legal precedence where that portion of land was returned. Just one case under the same or similar circumstances to the one we are discussing.
Iceaura: When accompanied by the miseries and evils of blockade, the laying of siege to a governed people pinned in by walls, imposition of deprivations and hardships enabled by the theft of resources, that theft of land and water and homes becomes even more clearly a matter of human rights.
'We', as the international community, do that all the time without all this hand-wringing. We do it to every state we consider 'rogue'. Why are you not speaking of the miseries of the N. Koreans or the people of Myanmar? Why is it that you cannot see that this shit is going on all the time? What's wrong with you people? 'WE', for christs sake did it to Iraq for years before the US decided to finish it off with one big blow called INVASION! Stop being so naive!!! Have the Tibetans gained their country back? Why not? Why are you not speaking out about that? Again there is no precedence!!!
Iceaura: They have a right to crush Israel based on Israel's nature and behavior toward them, in self defense.
And then so does Israel! And when you put it in those terms, you also place give Israel the strength of resolve in terms of the way they treat Palestinians. You in short prove their point.
Iceaura: Israel has no such justification. The entire scene is of Israel's creation and maintenance. Israel is the aggressor, the expanding and occupying and usurping and attacking and blockading power.
Oh yes they do my pet! They most certainly do have jurisdiction! The only problem with the Palestinian movement is that they have a bunch of childish dreamers picking up their mantle. Anyway, you cannot prove aggression against someone you have also aggressed. It may seem complicated to you legally, but that's just the fucking way it is! Stop trying to pretend as if the Palestinian HAMAS controlled government in Gaza is anything but a terrorist org. Yeah, Israel is fucking up in terms of human and civil rights, but Hamas gives Israel the excuse. That's what I call a no win situation for everyone!
@Iceaura
I have said in previous posts that its in part of Israeli dominance that has caused the opposition, generations after the fact, to remain fiercely opposed, but guess what? That is not going to be an excuse in the long run. Sorry that explanation can only go so far. Basically they are going to have to take a REALISTIC look at the situation and re-invent themselves. Who am I talking about? Hamas. if Hamas and its ideology indeed represents the Palestinian people…well…then yes they really will need god on their side.
Iceaura: In some circumstances, failing to return the stolen and the usurped is a continuing violation of human rights.
Show me legal precedence. Show me where a modern State returned land they previously acquired due to war that was returned. In terms of 'ethnic cleansing', where they are subsequently removed from land that was acquired through intimidation, like bulldozing someones home and claiming the land and then moving those who represent your group, I would like you to show me a historic legal precedence where that portion of land was returned. Just one case under the same or similar circumstances to the one we are discussing.
Iceaura: When accompanied by the miseries and evils of blockade, the laying of siege to a governed people pinned in by walls, imposition of deprivations and hardships enabled by the theft of resources, that theft of land and water and homes becomes even more clearly a matter of human rights.
'We', as the international community, do that all the time without all this hand-wringing. We do it to every state we consider 'rogue'. Why are you not speaking of the miseries of the N. Koreans or the people of Myanmar? Why is it that you cannot see that this shit is going on all the time? What's wrong with you people? 'WE', for christs sake did it to Iraq for years before the US decided to finish it off with one big blow called INVASION! Stop being so naive!!! Have the Tibetans gained their country back? Why not? Why are you not speaking out about that? Again there is no precedence!!!
Iceaura: They have a right to crush Israel based on Israel's nature and behavior toward them, in self defense.
And then so does Israel! And when you put it in those terms, you also place give Israel the strength of resolve in terms of the way they treat Palestinians. You in short prove their point.
Iceaura: Israel has no such justification. The entire scene is of Israel's creation and maintenance. Israel is the aggressor, the expanding and occupying and usurping and attacking and blockading power.
Oh yes they do my pet! They most certainly do have jurisdiction! The only problem with the Palestinian movement is that they have a bunch of childish dreamers picking up their mantle. Anyway, you cannot prove aggression against someone you have also aggressed. It may seem complicated to you legally, but that's just the fucking way it is! Stop trying to pretend as if the Palestinian HAMAS controlled government in Gaza is anything but a terrorist org. Yeah, Israel is fucking up in terms of human and civil rights, but Hamas gives Israel the excuse. That's what I call a no win situation for everyone!
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