You aren't allowed to starve a people, but you can deny them the ability to import anything but the basic necessities.
Zionist piracy
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Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Why did Hamas just refuse aid if their people are starving?
Why refuse a bag of rice because you are not also allowed cement?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
If refusing aid is making a stand then Hamas is more stupid than I thought. Let them make their 'stand' then but I don't want to hear anything further about the need for aid.
NO people, NONE refuse aid if they are 'starving'. Its bullshit. Hamas are liars or gangsters or both!
NO people, NONE refuse aid if they are 'starving'. Its bullshit. Hamas are liars or gangsters or both!
I think you'll find that Hamas does not depend on aid. They cannot tax it to run the government. It meets only 20% of the needs of the Gazans. They depend on the tunnel economy which is what keeps Gaza from becoming the mass graveyard you keep looking for. The taxes on the tunnel enterprise are not amiss either.
Death, in pursuit of their goal, is considered an honor. They don't mind making martyrs out of their children. It isn't this life that is important to them, but the afterlife. When they complain about this life, they are hypocrites. Allah could end the occupation tomorrow.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
@Sam
Again then don't speak to me about aid but also don't speak to me about Hamas legitimacy. Its bullshit. The tunnel economy also helped bring in arms Sam. Hamas doesn't know anything about running a government. Watch the documentary, even their own people are sick of them. I don't believe for one second that they represent. What I do believe is that Hamas uses their own people as an excuse to further themselves in terms of power. I mean remember they are at war with Israel.
Again then don't speak to me about aid but also don't speak to me about Hamas legitimacy. Its bullshit. The tunnel economy also helped bring in arms Sam. Hamas doesn't know anything about running a government. Watch the documentary, even their own people are sick of them. I don't believe for one second that they represent. What I do believe is that Hamas uses their own people as an excuse to further themselves in terms of power. I mean remember they are at war with Israel.
Of course it does, as the sewers did for Jews in Warsaw and the underground did for the French resistance.
Is that why they have the support of the people?
http://www.homepagedaily.com/Pages/article8717-uri-avnerys-column---cast-lead-2.aspx
I doubt it.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Well then why complain when the Israeli's use any means necessary? Its hypocrisy to say Hamas is behaving like the Irgun and then say the Israeli's have no reason to treat Hamas as anything but hostile! If this is the case then just sit back and see which dog eats which dog.
Don't jibber jabber about human rights if its all about getting ones own back. If a grass-roots militia arose in the US the US government would crush it from self-interest. You are saying that Hamas has a right to crush Israel based on their self-interest. Then so be it. And don't tell me that about occupation when you just said how 'hamas have successfully kept the israeli's out'. Make up your mind.
You obviously didn't watch Inside Hamas. Hamas support is questionable. After they were voted in and formed a coalition government the first thing they did was turn on Fatah and have what amounts to a 'coup' and then sat their asses there pretending they could run a state. In that video there are marches in Gaza against Hamas, people are calling them bullies. So sorry but I have to question whether they really have public support, or if they intimidate their own people into support.
North Korea can also bring thousands of their citizens into the streets crying and hailing the regime and it don't mean shit.
Don't jibber jabber about human rights if its all about getting ones own back. If a grass-roots militia arose in the US the US government would crush it from self-interest. You are saying that Hamas has a right to crush Israel based on their self-interest. Then so be it. And don't tell me that about occupation when you just said how 'hamas have successfully kept the israeli's out'. Make up your mind.
You obviously didn't watch Inside Hamas. Hamas support is questionable. After they were voted in and formed a coalition government the first thing they did was turn on Fatah and have what amounts to a 'coup' and then sat their asses there pretending they could run a state. In that video there are marches in Gaza against Hamas, people are calling them bullies. So sorry but I have to question whether they really have public support, or if they intimidate their own people into support.
North Korea can also bring thousands of their citizens into the streets crying and hailing the regime and it don't mean shit.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
No Sam its not if all you are crying about is one injustice to replace another.
By the way that article comes from a student newspaper, so I would take it with a grain of salt.
By the way that article comes from a student newspaper, so I would take it with a grain of salt.
Its written by Uri Avnery who is 86 years old and an Israeli Jew, so I would take it seriously. He used to be a member of Irgun and is founder of Gush Shalom.
Does this mean that if voting rights were suspended in so called free countries tomorrow, it would not bother you at all? If the Pentagon decided to implement martial law in the US, what would your reaction be?
Does this mean that if voting rights were suspended in so called free countries tomorrow, it would not bother you at all? If the Pentagon decided to implement martial law in the US, what would your reaction be?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
So then get me a link of this momentous event from another source.
Red herring question. We are not speaking of the US government or the pentagon (and by the way I am not a US citizen I'm a Brit) we are speaking of the legitimacy or lack thereof of Hamas.
Hamas is no more benign the the Likud government you rail against and see no reason to replace one with the other. Hamas hasn't even shown itself good for its own people unless the entire palestinian nation is suicidal, in which case they need a therapist not food aid.
Red herring question. We are not speaking of the US government or the pentagon (and by the way I am not a US citizen I'm a Brit) we are speaking of the legitimacy or lack thereof of Hamas.
Hamas is no more benign the the Likud government you rail against and see no reason to replace one with the other. Hamas hasn't even shown itself good for its own people unless the entire palestinian nation is suicidal, in which case they need a therapist not food aid.
I would look for a link but I'm not too concerned who, between the IDF and Uri Avnery is more reliable as a witness.
Exactly. Hence universal suffrage vs occupation. Let the Palestinians have the same choices you would have for yourself. How many years of blockade would turn the Brits against their own elected government in favour of an occupying military regime that practises apartheid?
Exactly. Hence universal suffrage vs occupation. Let the Palestinians have the same choices you would have for yourself. How many years of blockade would turn the Brits against their own elected government in favour of an occupying military regime that practises apartheid?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
If it was an 'event' of news interest then you should be able to find another source.
Sam universal suffrage is the extension of right to vote. They had the right to vote. Hamas won, Hamas took over the coalition, Hamas has not had a vote since then. Just because the people were dumb enough to vote for Hamas DOES NOT MEAN THE REST OF THE WORLD NEEDS TO HONOR IT. They would just be another rogue state hellbent on causing problems for their neighbors and their people.
They've made their bed. Now let them lie in it.
The Brits would not be so stupid as to vote in a bunch of thugs like Hamas with the stupid racist charter they live by. And Hamas has no better agenda than the 'apartheid government' who by the way is not in Gaza, as you said yourself earlier. In order for your reasoning to be reasonable you have to show that Hamas is BETTER than a suicide bombing resistance movement who's ONLY intention is to remove Israel from the ME and replace it with their own banana republic where they will fight among themselves and live off international aid because they are too ill equipped to get their shit together. That's what Hamas represents. Not human rights for the Palestinians. But I could see what they find so attractive about it, I mean they would be re-inheriting land where there was an infrastructure they didn't actually build themselves.
If you still think that you can muscle land off of the Israeli's then you are simply delusional. If you think the international community is going to be able to force the Israeli's to give back land to the Palestinians then you are even more delusional. Its not a tenable action. The land was lost during warfare. Remember that the UN offered the land deal that the Israeli's accepted (even though the land they were being given was desert) and the Palestinians refused the deal, then they waged war with the Israeli's and lost even more land. Well that's the dice you roll when you wage war, the outcome is not always assured and if you lose you lose. Don't go around then and pretend you can demand its return and then say the international community is obligated to make sure that happens.
Sorry but the world isn't interested in that scenario. You have me on human rights, you have me on civil rights for the palestinian people but not if it just means the Palestinians using an org to revenge their loss. Its just another tit for tat political game not a serious attempt to a solution.
Sam universal suffrage is the extension of right to vote. They had the right to vote. Hamas won, Hamas took over the coalition, Hamas has not had a vote since then. Just because the people were dumb enough to vote for Hamas DOES NOT MEAN THE REST OF THE WORLD NEEDS TO HONOR IT. They would just be another rogue state hellbent on causing problems for their neighbors and their people.
They've made their bed. Now let them lie in it.
The Brits would not be so stupid as to vote in a bunch of thugs like Hamas with the stupid racist charter they live by. And Hamas has no better agenda than the 'apartheid government' who by the way is not in Gaza, as you said yourself earlier. In order for your reasoning to be reasonable you have to show that Hamas is BETTER than a suicide bombing resistance movement who's ONLY intention is to remove Israel from the ME and replace it with their own banana republic where they will fight among themselves and live off international aid because they are too ill equipped to get their shit together. That's what Hamas represents. Not human rights for the Palestinians. But I could see what they find so attractive about it, I mean they would be re-inheriting land where there was an infrastructure they didn't actually build themselves.
If you still think that you can muscle land off of the Israeli's then you are simply delusional. If you think the international community is going to be able to force the Israeli's to give back land to the Palestinians then you are even more delusional. Its not a tenable action. The land was lost during warfare. Remember that the UN offered the land deal that the Israeli's accepted (even though the land they were being given was desert) and the Palestinians refused the deal, then they waged war with the Israeli's and lost even more land. Well that's the dice you roll when you wage war, the outcome is not always assured and if you lose you lose. Don't go around then and pretend you can demand its return and then say the international community is obligated to make sure that happens.
Sorry but the world isn't interested in that scenario. You have me on human rights, you have me on civil rights for the palestinian people but not if it just means the Palestinians using an org to revenge their loss. Its just another tit for tat political game not a serious attempt to a solution.
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Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
If your british why do you use the american spellings of words?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
I went to school in the States but not for my entire school life. My mother is presently in the States but she became a citizen and I did not. I could but I don't need it as I am not even living there at the moment. I go back to visit her every six months or once a year if I can.
Hypothetically if they were that nice to each other, sure, but they aren't, they hate each other, and regularly prove their hate in action.
How is that reflected in the current 77 to 1 kill ratio in the December 2008 Gaza invasion? (or in the >1000 to 2 kill ratio during the invasion of Lebanon)? (or the latest 9 to 0 in the flotilla interception)?
My point is that Israel kills mainly innocent civilians, at least a dozen for each dead Israeli, much like the US did in Vietnam, and is not in 60 years solving its problems by this high kill ratio policy (nor is it even preventing the loss of Israeli lives). For its own good Israel needs to change form this failed high kill ratio policy and adopt a defense which can not be penetrated by the Gaza terrorist. I.e. protect ALL its citizens, not let them kill any.
This is possible - see the plan I first proposed in 2005*. It uses the same old 1975 technology Israel installed on it ships to protect them from threats 1000 times more difficult to stop than the crude, unguided Gaza rocket that merely fall form their trajectory peak. With luck the kill one or two Israels per year, (None so far this year, but one of the 330 fired did kill an unlucky foreign laborer.) Why not stop 100% of these crude rockets?
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* http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1124159&postcount=115
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