Zionist piracy

[GeoffP]

The pressure mounts:

Maybe what should mount is the facts.

First: I've seen Sam's picture cascade of "things that have been embargoed". Are there meaningful statistics on what gets in via Israel vs that via Egypt? How much in through each point? How much required?

Second: What was Israel's actual objective with the boats? Were they in fact to be diverted to Ashdod? What would next be the outcome of those supplies?

Be sure to bring the requisite three nails and two planks of wood for me in your responses.

 

[GeoffP]

Hamas charter = words

Quran = words.

:shrug: Not an actual statement of intent? There's been plenty of action on it, too (or an interpretation thereof), where the power exists to do so.

 

[S.A.M.]

Did you forget about the blockade? If Israel would take the aid to Gaza why is there a humanitarian crisis in Gaza?

How blind can you be? How stupid? Would you supply food to the Nazi guards at the Warsaw ghetto because they were starving the Jews?

 

[fedr808]

An entire ship for 2 boxes and a wheel chair?

great point.

Plus, when a poor victim desperately needs antibiotics, food and water, who the hell would rather buy them a pikachu?

 

[GeoffP]

Did you forget about the blockade? If Israel would take the aid to Gaza why is there a humanitarian crisis in Gaza?

No, I did not forget about the blockade. But some food is clearly getting through either side. How much is let through via Ashdod? Is there reason to think the Israelis would hold all of it up? Would the convoy have better served by going through Egypt instead? If so, why didn't they go there? And so forth.

Before you of all people run around calling others stupid, maybe you should sit back and reflect a bit as to what's being asked.

 

[fedr808]

Did you forget about the blockade? If Israel would take the aid to Gaza why is there a humanitarian crisis in Gaza?

How blind can you be? How stupid? Would you supply food to the Nazi guards at the Warsaw ghetto because they were starving the Jews?

SAM, what do the nazi's have to do with the Jews? What a joke.

Here's one SAM, if Hitler were firing rockets into Russia, would you blame the Russians for their predicament and for their retaliation? Of course you would SAM, because your you and I'm me.


Besides the fact that because of Gaza's stupid government they dont even have a port, what do you think that the ship was just going to run aground to unload? No, they would have had to make port in Israel.

 

[fedr808]

Sorry I don't do moron.

Really?

Because you could go pro with some of the stuff you say.

 

[S.A.M.]

Sorry I don't do moron. I figure when someone is willing to watch starving kids clutching their dead parents for four days, they don't really care much about things like humanitarianism

 

[GeoffP]

Sorry I don't do moron.

*sigh* Seemingly, you do.

I figure when someone is willing to watch starving kids clutching their dead parents for four days, they don't really care much about things like humanitarianism

Or when they post on an internet forum. Anyway: don't worry about it. The questions weren't really meant for you anyway.

 

[GeoffP]

Ah. That was not to me? Then never mind.

(And please: save the editing. It's confusing.)

 

[S.A.M.]

Its to anyone who forgets that in the first 24 hours of the Gaza massacre the Israeli targets were cadet cops and school children. They timed the airstrikes to the graduation ceremony, to schoolkids on the road. These are the people were are expected to trust with food and medicines for the 1.5 million people blockaded for almost 4 years

 

[Billy T]

They have to renounce the violence. Its the attempt to fight a major power who is on the ground that has gotten them into trouble. Its not as if the Israeli army is an invading army from a million miles away Sam, its a stone throw away. Its the violence or terrorism that keeps the West from forcing Israel to back down, because they can see that the threat is actually there. Its also the reason why the US (yes Obama too) supports the blockade on Gaza. If Hamas loved its people they would spare them this hell and put down their arms. If there was zero attempts to attack Israel then Israel would have no valid reason (at home or globally) to justify their unreasonable heavy handed slap down of the Palestinian people. We all know that the Israeli government are sons of bitches so Hamas has to have the moral high ground, not simply roll around in the same muck. Don't you think for example that the Palestinians would have a better chance of fighting for their rights if they were de facto 'Israeli citizens' fighting from within? I'm speaking from a human rights point of view. But they will never have that chance if they are perceived as secretly plotting for the fall of the State. That's the point I am trying to make but I'm not sure if you really understand me on this.

I understand your point, but what you do not seem to understand is that due to the terrible things done to the Jews in WWII, they are very concerned with building a strong homeland in which they can be secure. They ask Jews from all over the world to come to Israel - almost say if you don't you should be ashamed. Without this history and need for greater land area (and water supplies) what you are suggesting might work, but there is a clear example in the Bedouins that it would not.

AFAIK never has a Bedouin killed a Jew or even shot at one, not even when they were rounded up and placed in concentration camp cities in the Negev Desert. Their old Ottoman Empire deeds to the land are not recognized by Israel. They have been driven from the Sinai mainly during the war with Egypt. Now (by Israel's own admission) they are confined to these three camps in the worst part of the Negev by the special Israel "green forces." (So called as they are protecting the "fragile Negev" from the use it had by Bedouins 5000 years before Israel existed.) Israel bulldozed down their villages, erased their names from all official maps, etc. Only about 10 to 15% of the original Bedouins still live in Israel. Those in these concentration camp cities are totally depend dependent upon Israeli trucks bringing in water, not allowed to keep any of their heard animals, not even one goat, etc.- a culture already destroyed.

Young Bedouin men can escape by joining the Israeli army, and many have done so. Thus these three camp cities are dominated by the old and young women. Even the largest now has only one bus load of school aged students. In another decade Israeli's "final solution" to the Bedouin problem will be complete.

Search a little about how Israel treated the peaceful Bedouins who lived on land for 5000+ years that Israel now wants only for Jews. Despite the green forces some Bedouins do slip back into the desert - go to their old home sites, plant a few vegetables, get a goat, etc. - I.e. try to reestablish their culture, but Israel sprays their crop with herbicides so they return, hungry to the concentration camp cities. The rest of the Muslim /Arab world does not seem to care about the plight of the Bedouins. Israel can do with them whatever it feels like and no one protests. -Sort of reminds me of how the world was silent during WWII about the plight of the Jews.

Israel is good at information control - I knew none of this until I watched a BBC documentary on it and then started to do some more searching on the web. You can too.

If the Bedouins are any example, and Palestinians had peacefully given up their land too, then they would not have any land left now either.

 

[Gustav]

nice
i suppose this..."if they did not fire rockets at us..." oft used panacea, will soon cease to be utilized. i mean, look where it got the peace loving and loyal bedouin

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I understand your point, but what you do not seem to understand is that due to the terrible things done to the Jews in WWII, they are very concerned with building a strong homeland in which they can be secure. They ask Jews from all over the world to come to Israel - almost say if you don't you should be ashamed. Without this history and need for greater land area (and water supplies) what you are suggesting might work, but there is a clear example in the Bedouins that it would not.

AFAIK never has a Bedouin killed a Jew or even shot at one, not even when they were rounded up and placed in concentration camp cities in the Negev Desert. Their old Ottoman Empire deeds to the land are not recognized by Israel. They have been driven from the Sinai mainly during the war with Egypt. Now (by Israel's own admission) they are confined to these three camps in the worst part of the Negev by the special Israel "green forces." (So called as they are protecting the "fragile Negev" from the use it had by Bedouins 5000 years before Israel existed.) Israel bulldozed down their villages, erased their names from all official maps, etc. Only about 10 to 15% of the original Bedouins still live in Israel. Those in these concentration camp cities are totally depend dependent upon Israeli trucks bringing in water, not allowed to keep any of their heard animals, not even one goat, etc.- a culture already destroyed.

Young Bedouin men can escape by joining the Israeli army, and many have done so. Thus these three camp cities are dominated by the old and young women. Even the largest now has only one bus load of school aged students. In another decade Israeli's "final solution" to the Bedouin problem will be complete.

Search a little about how Israel treated the peaceful Bedouins who lived on land for 5000+ years that Israel now wants only for Jews. Despite the green forces some Bedouins do slip back into the desert - go to their old home sites, plant a few vegetables, get a goat, etc. - I.e. try to reestablish their culture, but Israel sprays their crop with herbicides so they return, hungry to the concentration camp cities. The rest of the Muslim /Arab world does not seem to care about the plight of the Bedouins. Israel can do with them whatever it feels like and no one protests. -Sort of reminds me of how the world was silent during WWII about the plight of the Jews.

Israel is good at information control - I knew none of this until I watched a BBC documentary on it and then started to do some more searching on the web. You can too.

If the Bedouins are any example, and Palestinians had peacefully given up their land too, then they would not have any land left now either.

Sorry Mate it doesn't sound any different than the history of Australia, New Zealand or the US not to mention Canada. Now I am pretty sure you are living in one of those nations. Care to pack up?:shrug:

 

[ElectricFetus]

Here's one SAM, if Hitler were firing rockets into Russia, would you blame the Russians for their predicament and for their retaliation? Of course you would SAM, because your you and I'm me.

It is true the Gazians are not innocent peace loving people and the Israel do have a right to protect them self but their actions against Gaza are way to harsh to be just self defense.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Hamas charter = words

Hamas charter in Action by Israel

Actions speak louder than words.

See just what I thought! You are not interested in peace you are interested in one side usurping the other side. That is not compromise nor does it lead to peace. Your idea of peace is when everything is reverted into Palestinian hands, this of course is unlikely to happen with Hamas at the helm, its difficult to blame the hyper vigilance on the part of the Israeli's when there is that threat. Dont you see its in the Palestinians interest to distance themselves from Hamas OR for Hamas to completely change its agenda.

 

[Billy T]

... look where it got the peace loving and loyal bedouin

Thanks for the link. My post 692 is from three year old memory of BBC programm and my searches made then. Here is condensed quote describing conditions for the Bedouns:

"After 1948, the new State of Israel declared 85% of the desert "State Land." From this point on, all Bedouin habitation and agriculture on this newly-established State Land was retroactively considered illegal. ... The government then forcibly concentrated these Bedouin tribes into the Siyag (Arabic for 'fence') triangle* of BeerSheba, Arad and Dimona. ... Throughout the 1950s, like all other Bedouin tribes under Israeli jurisdiction, the Al-Azazme were displaced from their land holdings into the Siyag triangle. ...

In the 1970s the government began to build urban townships, {"township" is a euphuism for a concentration camp surrounded by Israel's armed "green forces" that prevent escape. - Read on.} encouraging the Bedouin to move from dispersed locales through the Siyag, promising services. About half of the Bedouin moved. However, the towns were unplanned, and the Bedouin who moved to them found that there were no economic opportunities in or around the towns. The townships rapidly turned into ghettos rife with crime and drugs. At the same time, the urbanized Bedouin no longer had access to their former grazing lands. Most became dependent on government 'social security' in order to survive.[4]

As the nation developed and extended electricity and water access throughout the Negev, Israeli citizens {I.e. Bedouins} living in unrecognized villages like Wadi el-Na'am were denied access to national electricity, water, and municipal trash services, The villagers of Wadi al-Na'am came to live under high-voltage electric pylons which provide electricity throughout the northern Negev. Many residents started to use toxic, noisy, expensive generators, out of their own pocket; some use solar power.[1] The Israeli government built the regional water tank and electrical grid station in Wadi Na'am, but the residents were denied access. ..."

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadi_al-Na'am

* I think these are the three I referred to in my post, 692. The BBC only visited three for their documentary, which showed Israeli bulldozers destroying their mud and stick homes.

Sorry Mate it doesn't sound any different than the history of Australia, New Zealand or the US not to mention Canada....

You missed my point. I was telling why your suggestion that the Palestinians should not resist does not work as is proven by what happened to the peaceful Bedouins who did exactly what you suggest and now have no land.

I do not deny that this is common story thought history when a more advance people want the land a more primitive people is living on. Certainly it happened in all countries you named, and where I live too (Brazil). Again my post was only to show your suggestion (post 633) was tired and the Bedouins are now landless.

{post 633}They have to renounce the violence....That's the point I am trying to make but I'm not sure if you really understand me on this.

Read (or at least skim} my post 692 again. You will see that I am NOT stating Israel is doing to the Bedouins something new in the history of mankind - only that your post 633 suggestion has been shown not to work. It did work against the British in India, but not against the Israelis.

Years ago, I made a detailed suggestion that might work, which has the advantage of greatly reducing loss of innocent lives (and almost all Israeli lives now lost). Last night before going to bed, I promised in post 479 I would try to find the old links to it. Basically I suggested that Israel use 25 year old technology (which they have in warehouses as it has been replaced my more modern CIWS on their ships) to defend them self 100% against the Gaza rockets and abandon their 60 year old "high kill ratio" policy. I will try to find those old links now.

 

[nirakar]

No, I did not forget about the blockade. But some food is clearly getting through either side. How much is let through via Ashdod? Is there reason to think the Israelis would hold all of it up? Would the convoy have better served by going through Egypt instead? If so, why didn't they go there? And so forth.

Before you of all people run around calling others stupid, maybe you should sit back and reflect a bit as to what's being asked.

Convoys from Egypt were tried about six months ago. Egypt stopped the convoy and turned it back.

It is Israeli policy to make the Gazans suffer. The USA's government obeys the Israel lobby or also believes in this policy of collective punishment and the Egyptian government obeys the US Government.

 

[Gustav]

Sorry Mate it doesn't sound any different than the history of Australia, New Zealand or the US not to mention Canada. Now I am pretty sure you are living in one of those nations. Care to pack up?:shrug:

now that sounds like a ringing endorsement for imperialistic aggression and colonial adventures. the rule of law, as imagined by feudal societies, 500 odd years ago, is invoked and applied to a series of events that started 50 odd years ago. i mean, ww2 's aftermath spewed out a lot of legislation that offered up a more forceful paradigm on how nations coexist peacefully with arbitration rather than aggression resolving disputes. i suppose one could even be forgiven for thinking that this sort of thing is the norm, that it is thoroughly ingrained in the moral code of the generations of humans that arose since that time

i was wrong
imperialism and genocide, in all its flavors, are still the rage
forgive me

in any case i do note a subtle distinction in comparing british and israeli colonization, one quite easily overlooked...

"Could it not be contrived to send the Small Pox among those disaffected tribes of Indians? We must on this occasion use every stratagem in our power to reduce them."​

 

[nirakar]

They have to renounce the violence. Its the attempt to fight a major power who is on the ground that has gotten them into trouble. Its not as if the Israeli army is an invading army from a million miles away Sam, its a stone throw away. Its the violence or terrorism that keeps the West from forcing Israel to back down, because they can see that the threat is actually there.

Does the West force Myanmar to not abuse it's minorities? Does the West do anything effective about the killing in Congo. Even in Rwanda the West did not stop the violence.

Do you really believe the West would force Israel to do anything? Isn't it a bit naive to think that Arab terrorism is the reason the west does not do anything about Israel? Terrorism just helps the Western governments not have a public relations problem in the West while they do nothing about Israel.

Palestinians renouncing violence probably would be in there best interest because they aren't getting anywhere with violence anyway. Renouncing violence against oppressors goes against human nature but a battered wife does need to to know better than to hit back. This wife does not want to flee her ancestral home and nobody wants to let her live with them. The cops supports her batterer. These cops don't do anything for battered wives anyway unless the battered wive can bribe them with something.

If anything is going to be done about Israel individual people will have to do it. The flotilla is the sort of thing that needs to be done. Also boycotts will need to be done. Otherwise the next 40 years will be like the last 40 years.