Zionist piracy

[S.A.M.]

Especially if you don't think there needs to be any compromise on the side of Hamas.

Like what? What would you consider an adequate compromise to a 60 year occupation, dispossession and system of apartheid?

 

[pjdude1219]

No Sam YOU are hoping it will rot from within, its a desire on your part not an objective analysis. N. Korea is 'rotting from within' and yet it still stands. Israel as it stands is thriving.

everything fears time

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Read the eight steps to genocide, you'll get a clue.

Poverty can be combated, illiteracy can be overcome, dictators can be overthrown. But a country of people bred to hatred? There is no recourse there. Listen to the pro-Israel supporters, the Israeli public. They see nothing unconscionable in attacking innocents, no shame in oppression, no remorse. Thats decay. They are on the path of self destruction. Jews who come from a religion governed by law ask you what is a law without an enforcer? They adore the golden calf and ignore the consequences.



History, of course. Is there any other?

Israel is not engaged in a genocide Sam its ethnic cleansing not a genocide but we've been through that before. Moving on...

What about radical muslims that are bred on hatred? Are they not rotting from within? There is a great resistance inside Israel against its own government you just never choose to focus on it. Your claim of the internal rotting due to 'hatred' again is not an objective analysis but a projection of your own feelings. How do you measure a nations hatred? I for example don't think the Chinese are harboring hatred towards Tibetans but by your analysis they too should be 'rotting from within'. Why are they not 'rotting from within'?

The golden calf?

 

[S.A.M.]

What about radical muslims that are bred on hatred? Are they not rotting from within?

Of course they are. Fortunately, they are mostly irrelevant. Not running a country made up of likeminded morons.

There is a great resistance inside Israel against its own government

Yes, they think the government is not violent enough. Do you read Israeli opinions on their government?

They want more violence against Palestinians, not less.

 

[James R]

What would you consider an adequate compromise to a 60 year occupation, dispossession and system of apartheid?

They could start by ceasing using terrorism as a political tactic. Don't you think?

 

[CheskiChips]

Cheski:



You mean you'll take the word of a generic dictionary over the definition used by international lawyers.

You and Spock sure are good at shifting the goal posts any time you're in an uncomfortable position. Is that a particular Israeli trait, or just a personal one?

Princeton is a fairly reputable law school. If you have an actual international dictionary which expounds precedent, it would obviously be more compelling for me change my mind.

 

[pjdude1219]

They could start by ceasing using terrorism as a political tactic. Don't you think?

you could make a case that the palestinians aren't using terrorism and the Israelis are though it get involved in shades of meaning and technicalities so quite frankly I think it would go over the heads of most of the people involved in this debate.

 

[James R]

Cheski:

I'm sure that if you google "international law", within 2 minutes you'll find a wikipedia article pitched at a suitable level that introduces you to the term "customary international law" and/or "peremptory norm".

Go do the basic legwork and get back to me if you still want to debate the issue.

 

[S.A.M.]

They could start by ceasing using terrorism as a political tactic. Don't you think?

Define terrorism. They are the elected government of the Palestinian people, even if those who advocate "freedom of expression" and "universal suffrage" choose not to recognise them.

 

[James R]

you could make a case that the palestinians aren't using terrorism

Firing rockets into Israel, targetting the civilian population indiscriminately.

I'd love to see your argument that such a thing does not constitute terrorism. It is off-topic for this thread, though. Feel free to start a new one.

Edit to add: you too, SAM.

 

[Bells]

@Strawdog

Notice you said 'finally Israel'. It is finally Israel we are dealing with here not WW2 pogroms or the holocaust. Do you look at the United States and see its foreign policy as a manifestation of the 'puritan cause'? I didn't think so.

So you see suicide bombing and rocket launches as being justified. Well welcome to the explanation used by Israeli's. Both sides are dying because of such justification its just that the odds are against Hamas. Hamas is the worst thing to have happened to the Palestinian cause, all those who try and wage war against Israel are not helping the Palestinian people, they give Israel every bit of ammunition and justification they need to distrust and lash out against innocent people. Like I said you are simply a cheerleader.

What is the cause? I think the better question is what is the cure. All the rants and rambling about who came first, who owns what, what people are a people, ones truth being another's myth etc hasn't gotten anyone anywhere close to a cure. It only leads to the circle of rage, acrimony and violence.

What I was trying to indicate is that you seem to think that Israel and Palestine is on the global mind and its not, in Asia specifically the ME is a million miles away in terms of interest. Trust me, I have been to three countries in the past month alone.

What difference does it make who is accountable? How many people really believe that the man inside the bulldozer wasn't aware that Rachel Corrie was in its path? This is just another example of how unforgiving the Israeli's are when it comes to the situation in Gaza. Having said that in another month or two people will be discussing some other horrible situation concerning Israel. Where is all the chatter for example of Israel's assassination in Dubai and the use of legitimate passports? After all the governments stated their disapproval they moved on business as usual with no consequences meted out towards Israel.

Who is calling for the fall of Israel? Its in the air. Haven't you noticed? When you refer to Israel as being the evil empire what do you hope for said nation? Especially if you don't think there needs to be any compromise on the side of Hamas.

Actually, two countries have already deported Israeli diplomats over the passport incident.

There is a distinct move in the world in the expectation that Israel will behave appropriately. Now, their continued refusal will result in further isolation and loss of support from Western nations. They are alienating themselves. And it will continue if they keep going as they are going.

Israel had a massive chance to gain a moral victory with this flotilla. I mean think about it, how long can they justify banning things like coriander and children's toys and paper? As one commentator has said in Israel, it is embarrassing and it should be embarrassing. The pressure is going to keep mounting in regards to the blockade. And that pressure will now fall squarely on Israel's head. Now, they can continue justifying banning "coriander and houseplants", or they can do the right thing by the people who are suffering in this.

 

[S.A.M.]

Firing rockets into Israel, targetting the civilian population indiscriminately.

I'd love to see your argument that such a thing does not constitute terrorism. It is off-topic for this thread, though. Feel free to start a new one.

Edit to add: you too, SAM.

Note that every military activity of Israel beginning in 1947 has been outside its [undefined] borders, while the Palestinians have been defending themselves on their own ground.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Like what? What would you consider an adequate compromise to a 60 year occupation, dispossession and system of apartheid?

They have to renounce the violence. Its the attempt to fight a major power who is on the ground that has gotten them into trouble. Its not as if the Israeli army is an invading army from a million miles away Sam, its a stone throw away. Its the violence or terrorism that keeps the West from forcing Israel to back down, because they can see that the threat is actually there. Its also the reason why the US (yes Obama too) supports the blockade on Gaza. If Hamas loved its people they would spare them this hell and put down their arms. If there was zero attempts to attack Israel then Israel would have no valid reason (at home or globally) to justify their unreasonable heavy handed slap down of the palestinian people. We all know that the Israeli government are sons of bitches so Hamas has to have the moral high ground, not simply roll around in the same muck. Don't you think for example that the Palestinians would have a better chance of fighting for their rights if they were de facto 'Israeli citizens' fighting from within? I'm speaking from a human rights point of view. But they will never have that chance if they are perceived as secretly plotting for the fall of the State. That's the point I am trying to make but I'm not sure if you really understand me on this.

 

[nirakar]

Note the photographer's name. A little (about 2 seconds worth is all you need) research and...

Ayman Mohyeldin (born May 1, 1979) is an Arab American journalist based in the Middle East and is the Gaza Correspondent for the English language channel Al-Jazeera.

[sarcasm]This guy obviously isn't biased at all. Gaza Correspondent for the English Al-Jazeera. Born in Cairo, Egypt.[/sarcasm]

It also notes he was the first journalist to report that the border between Egypt and Gaza is now a vital route into Gaza for medicine, food and fuel supplies. Why did they need the flotilla to go directly to Gaza if they knew there was a naval blockade? Why not just bring it to Egypt, then truck it in the safe way?

Hmmmmmm...

I think you may have misread something. Egypt opened the border after the attack on the flotilla presumably because the Egyptian government feared that at this time the Egyptian people are not in the mood to tolerate the Egyptian government's blockade on Gaza. Egypt will close the border and resume the blockade as soon as the public calms down.

The UN position for the last year or more has been that the Israeli and Egyptian blockade has been too severe. This blockade is about collective punishment which is against international law. The UN had no objection to blockade against weapons going to Gaza.

The tunnels to Egypt are limited and are not capable of meeting the gap in supply to Gaza between what Israel and Egypt allow into Gaza and what the UN feels should be allowed into Gaza.

I would like to hear you explain why Gazans should not be allowed to have as many pencils as they want.

Maybe you already knew everything I just said and just pretended that you did not know.

 

[James R]

Define terrorism.

Maybe we can start with : Indiscriminate targeting of civilians for political gain.

They are the elected government of the Palestinian people, even if those who advocate "freedom of expression" and "universal suffrage" choose not to recognise them.

Does Hamas take responsibility for rockets fired into Israel?

As the elected government, such a thing would appear to be an attack on a neighbouring state, wouldn't it? Israel, then, would have a right to self-defence against such attacks. Moveover, it would be well within its rights to declare war.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

They want more violence against Palestinians, not less.

That's if you believe they speak for the entire nation. I mean how do you gage the sentiments of an entire nation:shrug:

I mean for every person I met who believed in the war on terror there were an abundant number of people who thought it a mistake.


(Oooo! Monsoon rain)

 

[James R]

Note that every military activity of Israel beginning in 1947 has been outside its [undefined] borders, while the Palestinians have been defending themselves on their own ground.

Last I heard, the borders were disputed.

 

[S.A.M.]

They have to renounce the violence.

They have, several times. In fact it took 40 years of violent occupation before the Palestinians turned violent and even then they have constantly adhered to many many ceasefires, over 70% of which have been broken by Israel. They have gone so far as to accept only 20% of their original homeland [not having reached the magic 2% demographic at which their opinions become irrelevant], accept the 1967 borders, accept the European colonisers which require them to abdicate their right to not live under foreign occupation.

It makes no difference.

 

[pjdude1219]

They have to renounce the violence. Its the attempt to fight a major power who is on the ground that has gotten them into trouble. Its not as if the Israeli army is an invading army from a million miles away Sam, its a stone throw away. Its the violence or terrorism that keeps the West from forcing Israel to back down, because they can see that the threat is actually there. Its also the reason why the US (yes Obama too) supports the blockade on Gaza. If Hamas loved its people they would spare them this hell and put down their arms. If there was zero attempts to attack Israel then Israel would have no valid reason (at home or globally) to justify their unreasonable heavy handed slap down of the palestinian people. We all know that the Israeli government are sons of bitches so Hamas has to have the moral high ground, not simply roll around in the same muck. Don't you think for example that the Palestinians would have a better chance of fighting for their rights if they were de facto 'Israeli citizens' fighting from within? I'm speaking from a human rights point of view. But they will never have that chance if they are perceived as secretly plotting for the fall of the State. That's the point I am trying to make but I'm not sure if you really understand me on this.

Same old lucy demanding the palestinians submit. they have too much pride and honor to do what you wish of them.

 

[S.A.M.]

Last I heard, the borders were disputed.

By Israel maybe. The Palestinians are indigenous peoples.