WTC Building 7 on 9/11

andbna
Simple proof that there was no conspiracy involving Silverstien:
Axioms:


1. Insurance companies don't want to have to pay out money
2. Insurance companies only insure the value of the building, thus it's loss is of no actual gain to Silverstien (If you get 20,000$ for your 20,000$ car that was stolen, you didnt gain anything.)
3.In case of fraud involving Silverstien: ie they were planning on the building being destroyed, insurance companies would not have to pay.
4.These huge insurance corporations have VERY GOOD lawyers, who will find any way they can to not pay.


-One is for sure real fool if thinking that if there was conspiracy behind it that it was done to benefit Mr. Silverstein only.

Thus, if there is a tone of evidence, the lawyers would have realised this, found it, uprooted it, and the insurance companies wouldnt have had to reimburse Silverstien. Simple as that. So why didnt that happen? Because theres no proof of conspiracy, It's all in your under-educated, overactive mind[.

-Well, your Over-Educated mind swallows just what it was programmed to swallow. :D Isnt it fun when we go to personal attacks ?

The only other posibility is the those companies were in on it too.
So tell me, why would a bunch of insurance companies, who have been the loosers of this ordeal, decide to go in on a conspiracy?
Or tell me then why have they not have uncovered all of this 'evidence' hmm? And if your answer is: "Because they didnt have it at the time." Then, why arent they filling lawsuits as we speak, why arent they supporting these CT's?
There is only one realistic answer: There is no conspiracy.


-Again, it did have nothing to do with insurance money.

No more than lighting a match makes the room colder.
This matter is "blown away" because the high pressure of the gases is causing them to expand outwards untill there is an equal amount of preassure, not a vaccuum.
What its by 'imploding a building' is that the building falls in on itself, and creates a mess only inside its own perimeter, as opposed to the Twin Towers which exploded debris in all directions (like that which made the hole in tower 7.) It does not reffer to the preassures inside the building.


-Blaaa blaa blaaa blaaa...so how was it possible that the building collapse in freefall speed, just like in controlled demolitions ?

I didnt see anything that resembled an explosion. I also didnt hear anything meaningfull.


-Ok, thats your opinion.

Also, howcome the windows didnt burst outwards with the alleged explosive detonations, or how come they didnt burst inwards with the alleged implosion? Perhaps because it wasnt rigged with bombs?

-You have nearby footage of it ? At those distances presented I cant say if there is flying window particles or not.

Either that or they take the time necessary to figure out what happened, rather than jumping to conclusion based off a 3 minut low resolution video, which doesnt actualy show why the tower collapsed, just that it did infact collapse. They also kinda had their hands full these passed few years, or did you forget about the twin towers and the pentagon? Oh, and no they dont "havnt a clue" They have a very good clue, and plan to have a draft report ready before '08. You see a report of the destruction contains a very large amount of detail, it is fairly specific, and they must have proof for their claims. It also requires a long time to gather specialists (you know, those guys who atualy know what they are talking about, not the layman CT's) and do thourough research.

-Blaaa blaa blaaa...start a thread about pentagon and other 911 events if you want, I´m not intrested at the moment. All that was irrelevant considering the topic at hand.

No, that's out of context, they stopped fighting the fires (remeber that "Pull It" line? Guess what it was reffering to?)
hence, they burned on unfought.


-Well, it was at least simplyfying or twisting the thruth since the firemans were fighting against the fire earlier in that day, the comment debunker uses leave us under impression that the fire hasnt been fight at all.

Finaly I'd like to state somethings:
First, the explosives could not have been inserted in between the time of the attack, and the time of the collapse. There simply wasnt eanough time (not to mention, lack of detcord carrying people.)
Thus if they existed, they would have had to been placed in advance. Impossible stealthy logistics for this put aside, let's say they were planted and ready to be blown.
A plane crashed into a tower, the tower collapsed and it's debris smashed a nice big hole in building 7. How what? Our explosives are screwed up.


-Stop right here, if you want a demolite building you take out the supporting colums, in this case those werent anyway near of outerwalls where the alligated hole were.

The debris, and fires, have no doubt ruined detcord, and several of the bombs. The perfectly crafted demolishion plan is scrwed. It is doubtfull they would have actualy been able to detonate most of, if any, of these bombs. Furthurmore if the building's neat collapse can only be attributed to a well thought out controled demolision, it would not have happened. Our demolishion wasnt controlled anymore!

-Assumptions, we cant know where fire was raging and where not.
The debris coulnt reach where the supporting columns were.

Thus you see, the shrapnal from the twin towers would have ruined any thought of a controlled demolishion.
Now let's factor in the fires, think they might cause any to go off? Think they could burn up detcord? Think they might ruin any radio-operated detonation circuits?
I think so.
A controlled demolishion idea whent out the window when the twin towers collapsed.


-Same goes for here, assumptions all together.

So then, the real question is what are you going to do about it?
-Andrew


-No, the real question goes, (if you live in US) what are you going to do about it ?
 
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andbna

If even as little as
1%of eyewitnesses are unreliable, in a crowd of tens of thousands of people, I would expect nothing less from a few hundred.

-This one I couldnt let slip by. Probability mathematics and logic.
1% of 50 0000 = 500 unreliable witness among 50 000 people in the area.
Lets say 200 eyewitness are picked to interview.

Probability that they all are unreliable

0.01(1%)^200 = 0 %

Actually you learn in statistics and qualtiy control that even under optimal conditions any asction a human being under takes and a 5% chance of failure.
Meaning even if everyone was perfectly calm, relaxed, and alert, 5% of the crowd would not get the details correct. Add in Adrenalin, fatigue, shock, fear, paranoia and horror and the level of competence decreases dramatically. Also factor in that longer it has been since the incident the less you remember and the competence becomes worse.

Chances of finding 200 witnesses who will misrember an event...100%. Especially if you are fishing for it.

Now, throw chaos, panic, disorder, and lack of education, rumours, peoples own opinions and comments, etc, into the mix...
Sorry, but Adrenaline does not exactly enhance ones ability to gather reliable information.


-If one is arguing that he heard/saw big explosion how fuckin dumb and
in panic he had to be if he was just imagining or misjudge something to be like it ? I mean explosions are quite a phenomena.

But video we have argues against the big explosion. Although I will inform you that concrete and steel buckling under pressure can make horribly loud thunder like booms. The dust kicked up combioned with such an effect, and the remaing burning fires would give the impression of an explosion. Even completely rational people would mistake it for one if they didn't see the source.

Or hell the flames could have found a storage locker where they had a few cases of WD-40 in cans.
 
TW Scott

Or hell the flames could have found a storage locker where they had a few cases of WD-40 in cans.

Don't forget the cleaning chemicals that are flammable, and explosive when exposed to heat and pressure.
 
Actually you learn in statistics and qualtiy control that even under optimal conditions any asction a human being under takes and a 5% chance of failure.
Meaning even if everyone was perfectly calm, relaxed, and alert, 5% of the crowd would not get the details correct. Add in Adrenalin, fatigue, shock, fear, paranoia and horror and the level of competence decreases dramatically. Also factor in that longer it has been since the incident the less you remember and the competence becomes worse.

Chances of finding 200 witnesses who will misrember an event...100%. Especially if you are fishing for it.

-Hi. This is the thing that I kinda pointed for. You see, by your 5% of 50 000 crowd you have to interview 4000 people to able to found 200 unreliable witness. Then you have to go through those 4000 interviews and pick the right ones if you want them all to be the unreliable ones, I mean nobody hasnt offer any tapes or suchs where somebody who was there argues that there wasnt any explotions...?. So why is that ?


But video we have argues against the big explosion. Although I will inform you that concrete and steel buckling under pressure can make horribly loud thunder like booms. The dust kicked up combioned with such an effect, and the remaing burning fires would give the impression of an explosion. Even completely rational people would mistake it for one if they didn't see the source.

-Yes it can make a horribly loud thunder like booms.
But in wont make a sound (at least thunder like) until it starts to crumble.

Or hell the flames could have found a storage locker where they had a few cases of WD-40 in cans

-One has to wonder why NIST hasnt been able to connect that already,
and if that did explode, then, why all the fuckin outerspace steel heating by fuel and fire and the possible not proven mysterious hole in southside/damage by debris from 300 feets away and amazing dominoeffect in most crucial point in hole structure of colums that leads to freefall speed collapsion like not seen ever in steelbuilding history.!.

Cheers
 
-Hi. This is the thing that I kinda pointed for. You see, by your 5% of 50 000 crowd you have to interview 4000 people to able to found 200 unreliable witness. Then you have to go through those 4000 interviews and pick the right ones if you want them all to be the unreliable ones, I mean nobody hasnt offer any tapes or suchs where somebody who was there argues that there wasnt any explotions...?. So why is that ?

Oh great a a word twister. The 5% is under absolute best conditions. You cannot argue that those existed that day/

[
B]But video we have argues against the big explosion. Although I will inform you that concrete and steel buckling under pressure can make horribly loud thunder like booms. The dust kicked up combioned with such an effect, and the remaing burning fires would give the impression of an explosion. Even completely rational people would mistake it for one if they didn't see the source.[/B]

-Yes it can make a horribly loud thunder like booms.
But in wont make a sound (at least thunder like) until it starts to crumble
.

Actually a few pillars snapping would be all you need and that could come quite a bit before the collapse. Trust me it does not take much.

Or hell the flames could have found a storage locker where they had a few cases of WD-40 in cans

-One has to wonder why NIST hasnt been able to connect that already,
and if that did explode, then, why all the fuckin outerspace steel heating by fuel and fire and the possible not proven mysterious hole in southside/damage by debris from 300 feets away and amazing dominoeffect in most crucial point in hole structure of colums that leads to freefall speed collapsion like not seen ever in steelbuilding history.!.


The hole is proven. Fire chief says it was there and firefighters say it was there it was damn well there. If you wanna go argue that point I suggest you go argue it with an NYPD firefighter.

The fires were burning a good portion of the day, at the beginning they were fought, but then the FD pulled out so as not to lose more men. So an uncontrolled fire burnt for quite some time.

Finally the collapse of the WTC 7 tower was nothing like a controlled demolition. The building did not fall down even remotely the right way. That much is obvious from the mess, debris and video.


Quit reading CT sites and get a proper education.
 
TW Scott
Oh great a a word twister. The 5% is under absolute best conditions. You cannot argue that those existed that day/


-WTF ? A word twister. Are you familiar with probability mathematics ? WTF ?

Actually a few pillars snapping would be all you need and that could come quite a bit before the collapse. Trust me it does not take much.

-WTF ? In freefall speed ? WTF ?

The hole is proven. Fire chief says it was there and firefighters say it was there it was damn well there. If you wanna go argue that point I suggest you go argue it with an NYPD firefighter.

-Have you read this thread trough before throwing your input ?
Okey, bring some quotes or evidence about that hole.

The fires were burning a good portion of the day, at the beginning they were fought, but then the FD pulled out so as not to lose more men. So an uncontrolled fire burnt for quite some time.

-Yes, so what, that was excatly what I was saying. ! . WTF ?

Finally the collapse of the WTC 7 tower was nothing like a controlled demolition. The building did not fall down even remotely the right way. That much is obvious from the mess, debris and video.


WTF ? not even remotely ? WTF ?

Quit reading CT sites and get a proper education.

-WTF ? What is in your opinion proper education ? WTF ?
 
Constantly saying 'this hasn't happened before' isn't really compelling evidence for anything. Large planes flying into skyscrapers isn't really a common occurrence.

Repeating that the building collapsed ‘perfectly’ is pointless. How else should a damaged and weakened building collapse?

You have to keep in mind that part of one of the tallest buildings in the world fell on WTC7. There was a huge gash down one side of the building. Look for the gash in this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GEEzHn4tqo
Go to about 33 seconds. The wide black line down the building is not a feature of the architecture.

Also the building did burn for seven hours.

Even if the building did fall at free fall speeds (I don't know if it did) then so what? How is that a key indicator that the building could not have collapsed due to other reasons? The effect of gravity is going to be pretty much the same you know.

Due to the fire and damage, the building was expected to collapse long before it actually did - hence the “pull” comment.

This is the Silverstein quote.
"I remember getting a call from the fire department commander, uh, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse."

In that context, it makes a lot more sense for pull to mean 'pull the firefighters out'.



So let’s look at what is being suggested. They were able to wire up the building with explosives (which is actually a very large job) which no one noticed. WTC was then destroyed and they then waited seven hours before they decided to blow up a building which had not been hit by the planes. They also decided to blow it up in the same way that demolished buildings blow up.

Why blow up WTC7 at all? Why jeopardize the whole amazing super conspiracy by blowing up this building? Just to make some insurance money? How much money was needed to plan this super conspiracy? The insurance companies were either fooled (they aren't fooled easily) or they were in on the conspiracy as well. All the fire fighters on the scene needed to be paid off (and all the rest).

Was it to make a statement? The twin towers had just been destroyed! WTC7 was of minor significance... Weren't all the buildings at the WTC complex destroyed or damaged to the point where they had to be demolished anyway?.... Then afterwards one of the people involved admitted it by using the word ‘pull’. Yeah ok I see no problems with that.
 
shaman

Constantly saying 'this hasn't happened before' isn't really compelling evidence for anything. Large planes flying into skyscrapers isn't really a common occurrence.

-Yes, that doesnt happen often, in fact, it didnt happen at all in WTC7. ? .

Due to the fire and damage, the building was expected to collapse long before it actually did - hence the “pull” comment.

This is the Silverstein quote.
I remember getting a call from the fire department commander, uh, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse."


In that context, it makes a lot more sense for pull to mean 'pull the firefighters out'.


-So why did he say pull it and not pull out ? Just a coincidence I quess.

Why blow up WTC7 at all? Why jeopardize the whole amazing super conspiracy by blowing up this building? Just to make some insurance money? How much money was needed to plan this super conspiracy? The insurance companies were either fooled (they aren't fooled easily) or they were in on the conspiracy as well. All the fire fighters on the scene needed to be paid off (and all the rest).

-I´m not the one who has claimed that it had something to do with insurance money.

Was it to make a statement? The twin towers had just been destroyed! WTC7 was of minor significance... Weren't all the buildings at the WTC complex destroyed or damaged to the point where they had to be demolished anyway?.... Then afterwards one of the people involved admitted it by using the word ‘pull’. Yeah ok I see no problems with that.

-Minor significance ? No point to try to save at least something from all that data & files ?

[WTC 7] contained offices of the FBI, Department of Defense, IRS (which contained prodigious amounts of corporate tax fraud, including Enron’s), US Secret Service, Securities & Exchange Commission (with more stock fraud records), and Citibank’s Salomon Smith Barney, the Mayor’s Office of Emergency Management and many other financial institutions. [Online Journal]
The SEC has not quantified the number of active cases in which substantial files were destroyed [by the collapse of WTC 7]. Reuters news service and the Los Angeles Times published reports estimating them at 3,000 to 4,000. They include the agency's major inquiry into the manner in which investment banks divvied up hot shares of initial public offerings during the high-tech boom. ..."Ongoing investigations at the New York SEC will be dramatically affected because so much of their work is paper-intensive," said Max Berger of New York's Bernstein Litowitz Berger & Grossmann. "This is a disaster for these cases." [New York Lawyer]

Citigroup says some information that the committee is seeking [about WorldCom] was destroyed in the Sept. 11 terror attack on the World Trade Center. Salomon had offices in 7 World Trade Center, one of the buildings that collapsed in the aftermath of the attack. The bank says that back-up tapes of corporate emails from September 1998 through December 2000 were stored at the building and destroyed in the attack. [TheStreet]

Inside [WTC 7 was] the US Secret Service's largest field office with more than 200 employees. ..."All the evidence that we stored at 7 World Trade, in all our cases, went down with the building," according to US Secret Service Special Agent David Curran. [TechTV]
 
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-Yes, that doesnt happen often, in fact, it didnt happen at all in WTC7. ?
The whole WTC complex was clearly impacted by the collapse of the WTC though. You can’t compare a simple building fire with what happened to WTC7. Two of the tallest buildings in the world collapsed causing carnage. The top of one of those buildings collided with WTC7. Many other buildings had been damaged and many firefighters had been killed. If the only thing that happened that day was a simple fire in WTC7 then perhaps it would have been controlled and not collapsed. However a lot more than that happened.

-So why did he say pull it and not pull out ? Just a coincidence I quess.
I don’t know. It is still more plausible than the conspiracy theory.

-Minor significance ? No point to try to save at least something from all that data & files ?
So WTC7 was blown up to destroy some files? Are you suggesting that was a secondary objective of the conspiracy?

1. As someone who workds in I.T. I know that big companies always have a disaster recovery plan - even small companies do. There is always more than one backup. I would be very surprised if all these companies only had those files in the one building.

2. Hard drives were still recovered from the site so it doesn’t sound like a very effective way to destroy data.
 
-WTF ? A word twister. Are you familiar with probability mathematics ? WTF ?

Actually, I am familiar with probablility, statistics, quality control, and psychology. Your problem is that you have only a surface understanding and trying to apply it to the whole picture.

-WTF ? In freefall speed ? WTF ?

Sorry, i don't know what video you are watching but that is definately freefall speed.

-Have you read this thread trough before throwing your input ?
Okey, bring some quotes or evidence about that hole.

Hey, burden is on you to prove it wasn't there. Everyone there saw the damn hole. You are one of the idots claiming there wasn't one.

-Yes, so what, that was excatly what I was saying. ! . WTF ?

So, don't you think such fires would have damaged or destroyed the charges you would have us believe were there.

WTF ? not even remotely ? WTF ?

Go watch tapes of implosions.

-WTF ? What is in your opinion proper education ? WTF ?

Well, I personally suggest getting your highschool diploma.
 
TW Scott

Actually, I am familiar with probablility, statistics, quality control, and psychology. Your problem is that you have only a surface understanding and trying to apply it to the whole picture.

-Ok, then show me where I was wrong rather than spouting insults. ? .

Oh great a a word twister. The 5% is under absolute best conditions. You cannot argue that those existed that day

-I havent been arguing anything like that, even if there was 10 % my point
was valid, so who is doing debate in "surface of understanding" ?

Sorry, i don't know what video you are watching but that is definately freefall speed.

Hey, burden is on you to prove it wasn't there. Everyone there saw the damn hole. You are one of the idots claiming there wasn't one.

So, don't you think such fires would have damaged or destroyed the charges you would have us believe were there.

Go watch tapes of implosions.


-Again, have you read this thread through ? All this had been in debate.
Actually I have provided a few clips in this thread about implosions. ? .

Well, I personally suggest getting your highschool diploma.

-That allows you refute things without reasoning and to throw insults ?
 
I finally got a chance to hop onto a computer and i figured I'd chime in while I had the chance.

In order for WTC7 to collapse, explosives must have been planted in it. There was clearly not enough time for the explosives to have been planted in the same fashion as they would have been in a controlled demo, so that must have happened before hand. If it takes a month of constant work to rig a building for demo, then please tell me a time when no one was in the building for a month so that it could have been done. Hey, guess what, there isn't even a chance that they could have rigged the explosives.

Just think about everything that would have had to happen in order to just set up these bombs, and the entire story crumbles. Unless you can think of some probable scenario to even be able to set them up, then it's case closed.
 
Dark520
In order for WTC7 to collapse, explosives must have been planted in it. There was clearly not enough time for the explosives to have been planted in the same fashion as they would have been in a controlled demo, so that must have happened before hand. If it takes a month of constant work to rig a building for demo, then please tell me a time when no one was in the building for a month so that it could have been done. Hey, guess what, there isn't even a chance that they could have rigged the explosives.


-Not nice way to refute my case, you are offering here a loose/loose situation to me, there is no way I can prove this since all the evidence is gone, and, if I would bring some scenario it would be speculation and easy to refute it, because, it is speculation.
But it couldnt be that hard if we believe what TW Scott have to say about the collapsing of the WTC 7 building...

TW Sott
Actually a few pillars snapping would be all you need and that could come quite a bit before the collapse. Trust me it does not take much.


:D

Mr Spock
i think the people who initiated all those conspiracy theories are the terrorists themselves. the problem with such theories is you dont need real hard evidence, only to spread just a little doubt in people minds, and there you have it, a full scale conspiracy.


-These words in mind, go through this thread and notice that its your side of camp whom are spouting insults, using hypothesis as fact, ignoring facts of science and ignoring all the eyewitnesses...and taking authority as the truth rather than taking the truth as authority. Let the jury decide.
 
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Being little clever here Hype ? With jury I meant all the readers of this thread, but I´m sure you know that. Your oneliners in this thread service no purpose what so ever. :D
 
Oh that jury- sorry.

The scijury won't go for a conspiracy-theory that is even wackier than what was concocted by the Bush Administration.
 
The scijury won't go for a conspiracy-theory that is even wackier than what was concocted by the Bush Administration.
-Interesting reasoning, everything that Bush Administration has done after 9/11 has been justified by 9/11, that speaks for itself. :rolleyes: :cool:
 
You don't even have to delve into the intricacies of the whole situation, you can look at the macroscopic situation and it should cast doubt on the whole issue of the collapse.

1) We can all agree that the two planes struck the buildings at two distinct angles (the south tower being hit at such an angle as to cause less damage, and more fuel burning as it exited the side of the tower).

drawing from that fact, we can come to one conclusion;

A) The towers should collapse in two distinct fashions.

Which didn't happen; they both collapsed the exact same way, are you people (debunkers) insane, or just stupid?
 
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