Wonderful Heaven
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Freewill, no freewill - - whatever, the point is when creating “everything” God choose to create the concept of punishment and so we must assume he likes it. And as he does quite a bit of it I’d say it’s one of his more pleasurable pastime activities. So regardless, you should plan on getting a bit of it in your heaven.§outh§tar said:
I’m starting to see more and more why Satan and Co. got the “Hell” out of there
Michael said:Freewill, no freewill - - whatever, the point is when creating “everything” God choose to create the concept of punishment and so we must assume he likes it. And as he does quite a bit of it I’d say it’s one of his more pleasurable pastime activities. So regardless, you should plan on getting a bit of it in your heaven.
I’m starting to see more and more why Satan and Co. got the “Hell” out of there
By claiming God "likes" punishment are you implying that He has a preference towards it? That can't be true because ALL of God's creation is perfect for His purpose.
Unless you want to say creating food for human nourishment is also "punishment". Or is that not one of His "pleasurable pastime activities"?
"Satan and Co." want your company.
I've noticed that myself. Do you think that means something? Do all religious arguments in the end come down to free will? It's the whole matrix argument. "Would you have broken the vase anyway?" God caught in his own Cassandra complex? There should probably be a free will thread somewhere around here. I think I saw one in philosophy, but I think the discussion in there would take on a different tinge than religious "free will."
Would you say that heaven would be like living in a dream. Dreams have that characteristic of oblivion about them. Unless you bring yourself to state of lucidity, you are completely removed from yourself and time in a dream. Causality is whacked. The "rules" of the dream are automatically translated into your awareness (or rationalized, but that's another free will argument rearing it's head). In such a state it would be easy to conceive of not missing loved ones that didn't make the cut. Would you really want to live like that? Dreams can be nice sometimes, but isn't it always somewhat of a relief when you finally come back to yourself and gather your ego about yourself once again. But, of course, heaven would be much more than the confusion of a dream, but the analogy still stands to a point.
Another interesting connection with dreams and heaven is the near death experience. The experiences (visions) that people have when the brain begins to shut down is in many ways like a dream. I've known a couple of people who have died and come back. Unfortunately, none have had near death experiences. They spoke of blackness. Emptiness. Nothing. In fact, one of them was so shaken by the experience (or lack of) that he became an atheist because of it. (Well, probably just nudged over the last hump in the journey.) I've been unconscious only one time in my life and my experience was as my friend's near death experiences. Nothing. Just a blank piece of time. When I came out of it, I heard a voice nagging at me. Saying it's gonna be ok. I was incredibly annoyed at this voice. Cuz of course everything was going to be ok. It was like I was just coming out of a dream, but it was a dream of nothing. There was no experience there. Then, I began to see a silhouette in the darkness. It was almost religious in it's context in my mind at the time. (Not like I wanted to worship it or anything, just kinda tickled those pathways of the mind. If you know what I'm saying?) Then gradually the features filled in. It was my girlfriend trying to wake me up. Weird. Sort of had light at the end of the tunnel connotations, but sort of in reverse. The dark at the end of the light.
Anyway, all this merely links the minds functions with religious imagery. I find it likely that dreams were a prime motivator for early religions (later ones as well, for that matter.) And the dream-like state had to tinge the image of heaven. And might have physical connections if heaven is real. Who knows?
Another interesting near-death dream-like state can be induced be g-lock. That's when you get knocked unconscious by g-force. Your brain passes out from lack of oxygen. There are experiences documented of the subjects actually having out of body experiences during these tests. They seemed to be floating several feet behind and above themselves. Watching themselves being led down the hall after the test. Watched themselves talking to the researchers afterwards. Weird stuff.
I've heard that doctors have begun placing notes at the top of light fixtures in operating rooms to see if any near-death out-of-bodies can read it. No luck yet as far as I've heard.
Anyway, that's just a short biological derivation on heavenly imagery (archetypes, as some would call them). It might add something to the debate.
This sentence does not make That much sense.§outh§tar said:
However, if I were to agree with the second sentence it certainly doesn’t preclude the first. Simply put, by your reasoning, punishment is perfect for His purpose and hence god likes to punisht. As He created the potential for punishments existence (knowing that it would flourish and exist) we can conclude that your god likes to punish. He created his own little punishment-perfect-universe that we could enjoy in it with Him. I'm sure you'll get a taste of it in heaven too. That is unless you're a mindless robot god-lover which come to think of it sounds a little like punishment to me
Maybe your Heaven is really Hell.Yea I’d be getting the Hell out of there too if I were Satan
That is unless I were into SM!invert_nexus said:
It does seem like threads on duality (what's good, what's evil) boil down to free will. Sadly enough discussions on free will are never fruitful.
Since heaven is not something you can "wake up" from, most would call it a nightmare. I haven't had too much success in the pleasant dreams department from childhood so I wouldn't know too much..
I suppose something similar is the visions that biblical prophets experience. Are they just dreams? Not much time is spent exploring the intricacy of visions and the like so not much luck there.
One of the most intriguing "episodes" of the sort is John's vision of revelation. Absolutely stunning and spectacular. Was it an out of body experience, hallucination, dream? How exactly did He see this? I strongly doubt any of us has had dreams that vivid and that intricate.
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Had any good visions lately? In the past 50 years or so, it seems that stories of visions inside and outside the church have increased to significant proportions. The term vision has different applications, depending upon one’s worldview. From a biblical sense it may be used to describe an actual vision or revelation from God. For materialists the term is often used in a skeptical or derogatory sense. For example, they would argue that the resurrection appearances of Christ were merely “visions,” i.e., internal phenomena having no objective reality or even necessarily any reality at all, something like hallucinations. That the resurrection appearances were not visions or hallucinations is evident not only from the biblical text but common sense as well. First, the disciples were not psychologically susceptible to visions because they did not expect Christ to rise from the dead. Second, the total number of people who saw Jesus alive after His death (500 on one specific occasion, 1 Cor. 15:6) present far too diverse a psychological population to suggest they all experienced visions. Third, visions are normally of short duration whereas some of Jesus’ appearances were of very long duration such as along the road to Emmaus (Lk. 24:13-28). Further, Jesus appeared over a period of 40 days at many different times and places; visions cannot do the kinds of things Jesus did, such as taking food and giving it to the disciples to eat; encouraging and allowing a skeptic to place his hands and fingers in his wounds, etc. True, some of the disciples at first thought Jesus was a ghost. This was a normal reaction since they knew He was dead, didn’t expect a resurrection, and would logically assume little else. But Jesus Himself replied, “Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself. Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see 1 have” (Lk, 24:39). Then He ate fish, something visions don’t normally do.
Here is the Full Article: Definitely Recommend!
Search for the non-pdf on google. Apparently the BBCode doesn't like the url format..
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Michael said:You needn’t wait for heaven to experience this. I’ve seen it in the Ward. A person who has done enough drugs/ sniffed enough glue as to be oblivious to the world. They sit stare into space blathering about Jesus and God rocking back and forth with an expression of ecstasy across their smiling glazed expression. Yeah, I hear they sheit their pants without a care in the world.
And THIS is you’re ultimate REALITY?
Then you are no longer you and for all intents and purposes may as well as by someone else. So "you" (as in self), as I content, will indeed die after this life.
Sweet Oblivion
The only reason our memories are washed clean is to keep our minds off of our earthly lives. We will be living with God. He doesn't need us to know about sin because he by nature cannot live with sin and must get rid of it. Human nature is sin, therefore, it is an act to prevent sin in heaven. And you know what? I'll proudly shit my pants because I'll be doing it with my lord and savior Jesus Christ.
Let me recapture, to me it looks like heaven is ultimate bliss. You sit around on a cloud without a care in the world. Just like when you´re high on :m:.
You gave up your free will to experience joyful being.
But in hell, you experience some kind of reality? Keeping your memories and feelings in that very unhospitable place.
Then I ask myself, where is the difference between hell and the real world? For many people, this world is hell.
But for some others who are mentally deranged, this world is absolute bliss. They are ultimatively content while hanging around in a lunatic asylum.
Go figure, but I think we already died once.
You gave up your free will to experience joyful being.
But in hell, you experience some kind of reality? Keeping your memories and feelings in that very unhospitable place.
Then I ask myself, where is the difference between hell and the real world? For many people, this world is hell.
But for some others who are mentally deranged, this world is absolute bliss. They are ultimatively content while hanging around in a lunatic asylum.
Go figure, but I think we already died once.
God does not enjoy punishing us. That is why he established a covanent whith Noah promising to never again flood the entire earth. Does a parent enjoy diciplining his kid. No. but why does he do it? because justice must be served.
This can be turned around with ease. God does enjoy punishing us. That’s why he flooded the earth. Not only that, that’s why he created a universe with punishment. Not only that, that’s why he created the earth with water and humans that drowned in water – so he could flood it. Why did he promise to never do it again. Because Man soon became strong and could tell Gopd to get stuffed.Enigma'07 said:
Judges 1
19 And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
God got scared and decided that in order to save face he’d pretend to give Noah a promise not to flood the area again. (remember it was only the area around where Noah lived that was flooded).
Sorry but your explanation doesn’t even begin to float and if anything further illustrates the point that God is sadistic and created a univers such that he COULD punish – solely because he love to punish. If not God could have easily created a universe where punishment is not even a concept.Enigma'07 said:
If the parent DOES enjoy punishing a child it is because the parent is perverse and feels that Justice must be served.
The reason most parents punish there child is to teach the child something that the parent believes strongly in (such as morality or safety). Which of course is not the reason why God punishes. It’s for pure sadistic means - especially in the case of eternal punishemnt.
Michael said:This sentence does not make That much sense.
However, if I were to agree with the second sentence it certainly doesn’t preclude the first. Simply put, by your reasoning, punishment is perfect for His purpose and hence god likes to punisht. As He created the potential for punishments existence (knowing that it would flourish and exist) we can conclude that your god likes to punish. He created his own little punishment-perfect-universe that we could enjoy in it with Him. I'm sure you'll get a taste of it in heaven too. That is unless you're a mindless robot god-lover which come to think of it sounds a little like punishment to me
Yea I’d be getting the Hell out of there too if I were Satan
You are making baseless statements. I think this is in response to you saying 'God is not fair':
Ezekiel 18
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD . Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD . Repent and live!
Should be clear by now, if not there's one more I'm thinkin of right now..
To Dispel all incorrect notions about Heaven:
As we find grim and ghastly images for hell, so we find rich and promising biblical images for heaven. It is likened to paradise, to the bosom of Abraham, and to a glorious city that comes down from heaven. The New Jerusalem is described in terms of translucent streets of gold, a place with walls of precious gemstones, and a setting of perpetual and everlasting joy.
What is most notable about heaven is what is absent from it as well as what is present in it. Things that will be absent include: (1) tears, (2) sorrow, (3) death, (4) pain, (5) darkness, (6) ungodly people, (7) sin, 8) temples, (9) the sun or moon, and (10) the curse from Adam's sin (see Genesis 3:14-19).
While the saints will delight in fellowship with their God and Savior, there is no reason to believe that they will not recognize with saints they knew on earth. Heaven is the abode of all good things.
The greatest joy of heaven is the beatific vision, seeing the face of God. This unspeakable joy, however, comes through the eyes of the soul. God is spirit, and in spirit the elect shall see Him. This is the reward, earned by Christ, enjoyed by His children.
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Information culled from R.C. Sproul's, 'Essential Truths of the Christian Faith'.
As we find grim and ghastly images for hell, so we find rich and promising biblical images for heaven. It is likened to paradise, to the bosom of Abraham, and to a glorious city that comes down from heaven. The New Jerusalem is described in terms of translucent streets of gold, a place with walls of precious gemstones, and a setting of perpetual and everlasting joy.
What is most notable about heaven is what is absent from it as well as what is present in it. Things that will be absent include: (1) tears, (2) sorrow, (3) death, (4) pain, (5) darkness, (6) ungodly people, (7) sin, 8) temples, (9) the sun or moon, and (10) the curse from Adam's sin (see Genesis 3:14-19).
While the saints will delight in fellowship with their God and Savior, there is no reason to believe that they will not recognize with saints they knew on earth. Heaven is the abode of all good things.
The greatest joy of heaven is the beatific vision, seeing the face of God. This unspeakable joy, however, comes through the eyes of the soul. God is spirit, and in spirit the elect shall see Him. This is the reward, earned by Christ, enjoyed by His children.
----------
Information culled from R.C. Sproul's, 'Essential Truths of the Christian Faith'.
Ewwwww... Don't know how great Abraham's bosom would have been. I don't think sanitary practices were all that great back then...
How rather childish of God. When questioned on his sense of Justness he quickly accuses the accuser as if that addresses the problem.§outh§tar said:
AKA:
God’s Mommy: God did you eat candy before din din?
God: Oh yeah, well well . . . *scrunches eyebrows for a bit* I saw you do something wrong once too!!
§outh§tar: Hmmm .. .. He’s got a good point!!
The rest of the passage is the repeating of this these first two sentences.
Anyway, God could have just as easily created a universe where “Unjust” was not a possible concept. We can assume as God created a Universe where “Injustice” is not only a possibility but ripe in his world – that God loves Injustice as much (if not more) than Punishment.
God’s little Unjust-Punishment-Perfect Universe. Thanks for further adding to the point. Plan on heaven being Unjust as well.
Yes, but filled with souls that will except unjustness as justness. It just takes a little practice in doublethink. Not too hard really.
"AKA:
God’s Mommy: God did you eat candy before din din?
God: Oh yeah, well well . . . *scrunches eyebrows for a bit* I saw you do something wrong once too!!
§outh§tar: Hmmm .. .. He’s got a good point"
There is no one above God. He has always been and alway will be. Giving him a mother shows that he himself was created, but THAT IS NOT TRUE!!!
God’s Mommy: God did you eat candy before din din?
God: Oh yeah, well well . . . *scrunches eyebrows for a bit* I saw you do something wrong once too!!
§outh§tar: Hmmm .. .. He’s got a good point"
There is no one above God. He has always been and alway will be. Giving him a mother shows that he himself was created, but THAT IS NOT TRUE!!!