Wonderful Heaven

[§outh§tar]

//sigh

Bells,

Create means "to bring into existence". (Merriam Webster)

Your parents did not bring you into existence. Sperm and egg were not created by your parents. Nourishment needed to create the sperm and egg was not created by your parents.

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As for providing for us in every way, my word choice might have been poor considering the people I'm talking to..

Provides us everything we need. That's a better way of putting it.

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If you didn't exist, you wouldn't be "who you are today".

 

[§outh§tar]

Southstar,

Exactly the same can be said of prisoners in jail. They have no choice in the matter either.

Kat

Scuse me, but I don't believe prisoners in jail were created by the wardens. Neither did the wardens create the food. The wardens, who provide the food, had to also be provided food themselves so they aren't even self-sufficient.

 

[§outh§tar]

Apparently we both wish for the same thing. Although in truth I personally wouldn’t mind just living as is for as long as I would like (one of those “every things” that certainly hasn’t granted by God. We’ll see how Human ingenuity handles it though

I originally said: “give me oblivion any day over that non sense!”

You §outh§tar had already stated: “You would have no remembrance of the "old things".”

If you have no memory of 'self' then you are oblivious.

So we agree!

Let it never be said I didn’t sort of agree with a Xian

Well perhaps you misunderstood me. You would be oblivious of 'some' things in this regard.

Obviously, in Heaven you would not forget about happiness, joy, satisfaction, pleasure and so on.

In Hell, you would not forget sorrow and so on..


You CAN'T have your cake and eat it too Michael.

Guess from whence "human ingenuity" cometh?

 

[Truth51]

The wonderful thing about heaven is that even if your wife, parents, children and friends ALL end up in hell – because heaven is so wonderful and without any sorrow – you really won’t give a shit about them or at least not feel any sorrow at their demise. As heaven is perfect you’ll be perfectly at ease with their suffering.

You'd have to be perfectly at ease with their suffering right?

Peachy Place

You're right.

It's hard to understand in a place so full of suffering, but when you get to heaven there are no tears. Only peace. We have new names, bodies and identities in heaven, and our memory is washed clean. We spend forever with Jesus Christ, and it will be your most exciting time on this earth a thousandfold. It is beyond our wildest dreams.

It is their fault, not yours, that they are in hell. They had heard God's word, but did not take it in. Now when they die, God will hear their pleas, but not take them in.

 

[Katazia]

Southstar,

Scuse me, but I don't believe prisoners in jail were created by the wardens. Neither did the wardens create the food. The wardens, who provide the food, had to also be provided food themselves so they aren't even self-sufficient.

With your usual unerring ability you have again missed the point.

It is not relevant where we came from or how sustenance is provided – the issue is we have no choice or freedom in the matter. God would be as much a jailor as the warders even to the point of inflicting punishment if we were to misbehave.

As a parent I was responsible for the choice of bringing my children into the world. They are now grown and out at work and I do not see them very often. I have raised them to a point where they can sustain themselves and they are now free to do as they wish.

In your horrendous god scenario this creature creates people for his own aggrandizement and pleasure and pretty much says – “I made you so you owe me big time”. Just like the bad parent who refuses to let go.

Kat

 

[Enigma'07]

This is because the job of a parent is to raise a kid so that it can enter the world and support himself and make a living. God created us to worship Him, and that is what we need to do.

say you live by a busy highway with a five year old. You tell the kid not to play in the street because it can get hurt, right. One day you find the kid in the street. Do you leave the kid there? No, not if you care about the kid. You punish him so he won't do it again, right? God treats us the same way.

 

[Katazia]

Enigma,

God created us to worship Him, and that is what we need to do.

Why?

say you live by a busy highway with a five year old. You tell the kid not to play in the street because it can get hurt, right. One day you find the kid in the street. Do you leave the kid there? No, not if you care about the kid. You punish him so he won't do it again, right? God treats us the same way.

If the kid cannot sufficiently understand the issue then it must be kept under supervision. If it is capable of understanding then it can be taught appropriately and postively and not out of fear of punishment.

Punishment is a barbaric method of teaching and there are always reasoned alternatives.

What you are reflecting are the primitive authoritarian regimes that were common in biblical times. This is what people expected of governments back then when liberty and personal freedoms were near to non-existent.

We have evolved socially, intellectually, and educationally since then and no longer need to bow down to dictators of the style on which primitive Christianity is based.

Kat

 

[Enigma'07]

First off, are you asking why God created us, or why we should worship Him. If it's why God created us, it is because he wanted a creature that would fellowship with him and love Him of its own free will. this is why there is sin. it is what occures when we choose to do other than the purpose we were created for. If it's why we should worship Him it's because God says the wages of sin is death, and that once we have sinned, we deserve to die. He shows mercy to us each day we wake up and find ourselves alive. That is why we worship him, because we are greatful of his mercy!

 

[Michael]

Create means "to bring into existence". (Merriam Webster)

Your parents did not bring you into existence. Sperm and egg were not created by your parents.

Yes Sperm is “created” atom by atom by the molecules in the mans’ cells and Eggs atom by atom via the female’s cells.

What did you think – new cells appear there magically?

Nourishment needed to create the sperm and egg was not created by your parents.

So we go back to the sun. Energy from the Sun is used to convert atoms (CO2 + H2O) into Sugars.

So the SUN by your reasoning MUST be worshipped?

Sounds about right: Jesus Christ, Sun of God: Ancient Cosmology and Early Christian Symbolism

Provides us everything we need.

That most certainly is not true. What of those people born into the world without sight, hearing, arms, legs, mouth, all of the above and more (such as without a functioning heart).

By your assertion they are Created by God. So I must assume that God just Loooves to “Create” malformed dysfunctional cretin humans? As you seem to give all kudos to God for Creation.

By Gods track record that sounds about right.

Maybe you need to reword it one more time? Something along the lines of: Doesn’t really do much of anything for us to such an existent that there isn’t any form of evidence there is a God. Now THAT my friend is doing VERY LITTLE indeed. God does so little most people have stopped believing in Her/Him/It. As such we have to fend for ourselves in the world so that the only way we’re going to get by is by relying on our collective human ingenuity such that we, humanity, provide for ourselves. That sounds a little closer to reality.

 

[Michael]

Well perhaps you misunderstood me. You would be oblivious of 'some' things in this regard.

Obviously, in Heaven you would not forget about happiness, joy, satisfaction, pleasure and so on.

No I didn’t you misunderstand you. A person needn’t have memory to experience pleasure. It’s perfectly reasonable to expect someone oblivious to still retain the ability to experience pleasure (or pain). So again I assert we are in total agreement - After death there is oblivion.

 

[invert_nexus]

Jesus Christ, Sun of God: Ancient Cosmology and Early Christian Symbolism

I have heard this mentioned before. I haven't found a website that discusses it though. Do you have any? I can tell you this on the face of it, the idea is preposterous. Sun and Son are English words. Was there a coincidental blending of the relevant words in the original language? Somehow I kinda doubt it. I'd really like to hear what you know about it.


Edit: By the way, does it mention Amenhotep at all? Medicine Woman has a pet theory about Moses and Amenhotep.

 

[Michael]

Only peace. We have new names, bodies and identities in heaven, and our memory is washed clean.

You needn’t wait for heaven to experience this. I’ve seen it in the Ward. A person who has done enough drugs/ sniffed enough glue as to be oblivious to the world. They sit stare into space blathering about Jesus and God rocking back and forth with an expression of ecstasy across their smiling glazed expression. Yeah, I hear they sheit their pants without a care in the world.


And THIS is you’re ultimate REALITY?

our memory is washed clean.

Then you are no longer you and for all intents and purposes may as well as by someone else. So "you" (as in self), as I content, will indeed die after this life.

Sweet Oblivion

 

[Michael]

I have heard this mentioned before. I haven't found a website that discusses it though. Do you have any? I can tell you this on the face of it, the idea is preposterous. Sun and Son are English words. Was there a coincidental blending of the relevant words in the original language? Somehow I kinda doubt it. I'd really like to hear what you know about it.

The book is good. The title is just for marketing – although there is truth in the notion that Christianity took about everything from earlier religions - - some of which had Sun Gods. The book discusses numerology as it related to pre-Christian religions and how numbers/words were then copied by Christians. Stuff like the Jesus Fish symbol – used hundreds of years earlier (was actually a well known symbol achieved when two similar sized circles are over laid such that the centers are bisected - this creates a ration that is very useful in geometry .. .. etcetera).

 

[§outh§tar]

No I didn’t you misunderstand you. A person needn’t have memory to experience pleasure. It’s perfectly reasonable to expect someone oblivious to still retain the ability to experience pleasure (or pain). So again I assert we are in total agreement - After death there is oblivion.

Okie Dokie. If you insist..

 

[§outh§tar]

Southstar,

With your usual unerring ability you have again missed the point.

It is not relevant where we came from or how sustenance is provided – the issue is we have no choice or freedom in the matter. God would be as much a jailor as the warders even to the point of inflicting punishment if we were to misbehave.

As a parent I was responsible for the choice of bringing my children into the world. They are now grown and out at work and I do not see them very often. I have raised them to a point where they can sustain themselves and they are now free to do as they wish.

In your horrendous god scenario this creature creates people for his own aggrandizement and pleasure and pretty much says – “I made you so you owe me big time”. Just like the bad parent who refuses to let go.

Kat

Eh. I feel like you are missing the point .

If God creates people for His own "aggrandizement and pleasure", how does that make Him bad? He is the one who formed each and every individual and therefore He is justified in whatever course of action..

I'm not a parent so I might be wrong but I do believe it's different from parenthood as you are saying, where there is a responsibility to nurture.

 

[§outh§tar]

You needn’t wait for heaven to experience this. I’ve seen it in the Ward. A person who has done enough drugs/ sniffed enough glue as to be oblivious to the world. They sit stare into space blathering about Jesus and God rocking back and forth with an expression of ecstasy across their smiling glazed expression. Yeah, I hear they sheit their pants without a care in the world.


And THIS is you’re ultimate REALITY?

Then you are no longer you and for all intents and purposes may as well as by someone else. So "you" (as in self), as I content, will indeed die after this life.

Sweet Oblivion

Since God wants to punish 'rebels', I doubt He would have overlooked that little detail. Same idea goes for rewarding.

 

[Michael]

Since God wants to punish . . . .

Sounds about right. As a perfect "all powerful" God could (with ease) create humans with freewill such that they would never need to be punished - - - again we agree your God wants to punish . . . . .

 

[Enigma'07]

there is no such thing as a freewill where you do what you are suposed to do and thus avoid punishment. freewill means that you can choose between two choices/actions. you can choose your action, but you CANNOT choice your consequenses.

 

[Michael]

there is no such thing as a freewill where you do what you are suposed to do and thus avoid punishment. freewill means that you can choose between two choices/actions. you can choose your action, but you CANNOT choice your consequenses.

That's all fine, so let me reiterate.

God COULD have easily created humans with whatever freewill you are thinking of such that there was no possibility of any form of punishment. (That’s the funny thing about being all powerful and having the ability to do anything.) As God knowingly created a situation whereby punishment is a possibility we can easily surmise God loves to Punish. And, I’ll conjecture, probably gets some joy out of the act.

I'd also imagine if there is anything similar to the freewill to be found here in heaven - that is if you’re not just a mindless god lusting zombie (like §outh§tar dreams of becoming) then expect more of the same in Heaven.

 

[§outh§tar]

Sounds about right. As a perfect "all powerful" God could (with ease) create humans with freewill such that they would never need to be punished - - - again we agree your God wants to punish . . . . .

Again with this free will thing?

I feel like I talk about this in every other thread.

Don't blow that 'free will' trumpet when you are a slave. Either you are free or you are not.