----------okinrus said:
M*W: I guess what I have been trying to say is that I have no doubt that Jesus was not crucified for anyone's salvation. This would be my belief.
Wishin' and hopin' and thinkin' and prayin'...
- Thread starter Medicine*Woman
- Start date
M*W: I guess what I have been trying to say is that I have no doubt that Jesus was not crucified for anyone's salvation. This would be my belief.
But how does that at all lead to any usefull discussion. They have just as little doubt that he was crucified for their salvation.
They probably also have no doubt that your religion is false.
This entire thread could just as easily have been about your beliefs, and held just as much (or as little) weight. I must ask why you choose to define your beliefs using the negation of other beliefs, knowing that they could just as easily do the same, and it would mean just as little.
They probably also have no doubt that your religion is false.
This entire thread could just as easily have been about your beliefs, and held just as much (or as little) weight. I must ask why you choose to define your beliefs using the negation of other beliefs, knowing that they could just as easily do the same, and it would mean just as little.
----------Persol said:
M*W: When have I professed a "religion?" I was an ex-Catholic. I converted to Catholicism due to in-law pressure, and I honestly tried with all my heart to believe in it, but the truth came out and I couldn't believe Christianity any longer. I do not profess any particular religion today. I believe in the One Spirit of God. This is how I understand my purpose for being alive. I am not a member of any church. I pray on my own or with my family who believes the same. Parts of my family are still Christian, and they're always trying to save my soul. However, my soul is not lost, and I don't need a dying demigod savior. Hell is what I make of it here. Fortunately, my life has been heaven. I'm thankful for my life, and I believe I share the One Spirit of God with all humanity. But, that's just me....
Catholics don't believe in the existence of any other God but Yahweh. In fact, the doctrine of the Trinity comes from the Catholic church.
Saints are never worshiped.
--------------------
With a little research, you can see the different doctrines and creeds of the demoninations, and where they originated.
The Catholic church does commune with "dead saints".
Also the trinty is not "just the worship of Yahweh" or Jehovah, but is the pagan polytheistic worship of multiple gods inheirited from pagan Rome, only giving them different names......Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
While these "titles" are mentioned in the scriptures.....they are not names of three different personages or personalities of God.
They are three titles of one one and the same person who is God.
Jesus said "I came in my Fathers name"......What is the Fathers name then.....?
Jesus Christ.
Baptizing in the titles of the name of the father, the name of the son, and the name of the holy ghost....is a pagan ritual, turning the God of the bible into three separate gods.....and is not even in the bible to do so.
Jesus said to His disciples "baptize in the name (singular, not names....plural) of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Then when Peter received the keys to the kingdom on the day of pentecost, He revealed what that name (singular) was.......
He said you must be baptized in the name of The Lord Jesus Christ.......for the remission of sins and you would receive the promise of the Holy Ghost.
The compound name of The Lord (father) Jesus (the son) Christ (the anointing of Holy Spirit) is the name of God.
The Cathoilic church removed the use of the name in their baptizims and removed the power from the church substituing the Name with empty titles.....
Peter and Jesus were saying the same thing, not contridicting one another as the church trys to explain saying; "who's word do you take.....Jesus or Peters"....?
There are no contradictions in the Bible.
This false doctrine of the "Trinity" is anti- christ.......and was subsequently adopted by the protestant demoninations that came out of Catholisim after the dark ages.
It is Pagan, along with many other religious practices that these so-called "christian" churches teach for truth.
Thats why Rev. 18 says she is a Harlot; (the Catholic church), and the mother of the abombinations of the earth, ( which are the protestant churches or daughters that came out of Her....the "mother" church.
There is much more.......the great inquisition, for instance when for the cause of "heresy" against thier teaching which were not in the bible, the Catholic church murdered 68 million Christians who stood for the Word of God against thier false pagan teachings during the dark ages and were put to death by order of the pope from aprox. 325 A.D. til the Message of Martin Luther about 1500 A.D.
She has on her hands the blood of the saints. Read Revelations chapters 17 and 18 to see the judgements God is about to bring upon her.
Spend some time studing doctrinal differences and pray to God for the wisdom to discern the truth in this day.
I'm sorry if you are a Catholic but someone needs to tell you the truth, surely I can't be the first one who has told these things......
The difference between truth and error today comes down to a much finer line than this..
This is an obvious error, some others much closer to the truth are not so obvious, but still an error none the less.
We are to have our senses exercised in the disernment of good and evil in this day as Sons, and be weaned from the "milk" of the first principles of repentance and so forth, and go on into perfection, i.e. the eating of "strong meat" for those only who are of "full age" spiritually speaking.
This is in the new testament.
The truth is so close to error in this day that the scriptures say it would deceive the "very elect" if it were posible.....but it's not.
All the world shall be deceived and worship the image of the beast, who's names are not on the Lamb's book of life.
The majoroty of the "Christian" world is prophecied to be deceived by this great religious organization which is in the image of the beast.
There is no safety in numbers, there never was.
Revelation from God is an individual affair. Flesh and blood, Jesus said to Peter, hath not revealed this to you, but the Father in heaven has revealed it.
That's how he said He would build His church and the "Gates of Hell", the anti-christ, anti-word false denominations,...... would not prevail against it.
Saints are never worshiped.
--------------------
With a little research, you can see the different doctrines and creeds of the demoninations, and where they originated.
The Catholic church does commune with "dead saints".
Also the trinty is not "just the worship of Yahweh" or Jehovah, but is the pagan polytheistic worship of multiple gods inheirited from pagan Rome, only giving them different names......Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
While these "titles" are mentioned in the scriptures.....they are not names of three different personages or personalities of God.
They are three titles of one one and the same person who is God.
Jesus said "I came in my Fathers name"......What is the Fathers name then.....?
Jesus Christ.
Baptizing in the titles of the name of the father, the name of the son, and the name of the holy ghost....is a pagan ritual, turning the God of the bible into three separate gods.....and is not even in the bible to do so.
Jesus said to His disciples "baptize in the name (singular, not names....plural) of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Then when Peter received the keys to the kingdom on the day of pentecost, He revealed what that name (singular) was.......
He said you must be baptized in the name of The Lord Jesus Christ.......for the remission of sins and you would receive the promise of the Holy Ghost.
The compound name of The Lord (father) Jesus (the son) Christ (the anointing of Holy Spirit) is the name of God.
The Cathoilic church removed the use of the name in their baptizims and removed the power from the church substituing the Name with empty titles.....
Peter and Jesus were saying the same thing, not contridicting one another as the church trys to explain saying; "who's word do you take.....Jesus or Peters"....?
There are no contradictions in the Bible.
This false doctrine of the "Trinity" is anti- christ.......and was subsequently adopted by the protestant demoninations that came out of Catholisim after the dark ages.
It is Pagan, along with many other religious practices that these so-called "christian" churches teach for truth.
Thats why Rev. 18 says she is a Harlot; (the Catholic church), and the mother of the abombinations of the earth, ( which are the protestant churches or daughters that came out of Her....the "mother" church.
There is much more.......the great inquisition, for instance when for the cause of "heresy" against thier teaching which were not in the bible, the Catholic church murdered 68 million Christians who stood for the Word of God against thier false pagan teachings during the dark ages and were put to death by order of the pope from aprox. 325 A.D. til the Message of Martin Luther about 1500 A.D.
She has on her hands the blood of the saints. Read Revelations chapters 17 and 18 to see the judgements God is about to bring upon her.
Spend some time studing doctrinal differences and pray to God for the wisdom to discern the truth in this day.
I'm sorry if you are a Catholic but someone needs to tell you the truth, surely I can't be the first one who has told these things......
The difference between truth and error today comes down to a much finer line than this..
This is an obvious error, some others much closer to the truth are not so obvious, but still an error none the less.
We are to have our senses exercised in the disernment of good and evil in this day as Sons, and be weaned from the "milk" of the first principles of repentance and so forth, and go on into perfection, i.e. the eating of "strong meat" for those only who are of "full age" spiritually speaking.
This is in the new testament.
The truth is so close to error in this day that the scriptures say it would deceive the "very elect" if it were posible.....but it's not.
All the world shall be deceived and worship the image of the beast, who's names are not on the Lamb's book of life.
The majoroty of the "Christian" world is prophecied to be deceived by this great religious organization which is in the image of the beast.
There is no safety in numbers, there never was.
Revelation from God is an individual affair. Flesh and blood, Jesus said to Peter, hath not revealed this to you, but the Father in heaven has revealed it.
That's how he said He would build His church and the "Gates of Hell", the anti-christ, anti-word false denominations,...... would not prevail against it.
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Esstazq said:
I really do have some respect for the Unitarian churches. The name Unitarian implies that they believe in the oneness of god, and that's exactly how I believe. We muslims believe similarly that Jesus is with god, see Quranic verse 4.158 shown below. Here's what the Quran had to say about Jesus life, death, ressurection ,ect. Jesus's name is Isa. Jesus was a submitter to god or muslims. Jesus couldn't have been a christian or christ follower, or he would be following himself.?? The christians are called the follower of the book. The word bible means book.
The Women
[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure
[4.158] Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[4.159] And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.
The Women
[4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
The Dinner Table
[5.116] And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.
That sure looks like religion to me... but what makes any of that more 'real' then what christianity says? When you talk of humanity being god, christians probably bat their eyes and say "she's nuts"... just like you do when they talk about the trinity. Neither of you have anything to base your beliefs on except your experience...Medicine Woman said:
----------Persol said:
M*W: What makes it real? I believe where we're going as the human race does not go backward toward Christianity. Christianity brands us as sinners. We're not. We're still in the process of evolution toward a perfect humanity created in the image of our Creator. I believe the trinity was given to us as an "example" but not a fact. You are correct. Both Christianity and my beliefs are based on individual experience. That doesn't mean that both are wrong. That doesn't mean that both are right. All I know is Christianity has outlived its usefulness.
Hmm, as a Catholic I should know whether we "commune" with saints or not. Someone who is truly united with Christ is united with all those living and dead who are united with Christ.
It says at the end of Matthew. "Baptise in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
The Church has traditionally baptised as is written at the end of Matthew.
[quote
This false doctrine of the "Trinity" is anti- christ
Nope.
Why don't you find an official historical record of this? I know for a fact that this is a lie perpetrated by anti-catholics. But the truth is that at the worst times of the Spanish Inquisition, only Jews and Muslims who were pretending to be Catholic could be held by a religious Inquisition. The other persecution was the <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01267e.htm">Albegensians</a>. Well, I hope you realize that these people are not bible believing Christians. In fact, all throughout the middles ages, only a few could read. The sole owner the bibles and Scriptures was the Church. It was so expensive to produce one that there would be perhaps one bible per town.
I do understand the doctrinal differences.
Yes.
The antichrist has not come yet because the evil in the world is not great enough. As for the truth, the Holy Spirit will lead you to all truth. Decernment is knowing whether he is following the Holy Spirit or his own ideas.
Peter says somewhere in 1 Peter that all revelation is a public matter.
okinrus said:
All examples that are true underpin a deeper concept. Unfortunately, if Jesus was an example, then he must be an example of something. This, as you say, is human perfection defined by whim of a human being, namely yourself.
I don't believe baptism was done by the Greek in general. Rather it was done by the Essenes and some other Jewish sects.
No, the Malleus Maleficarum means the acts of witchcraft, I believe. It describes what witches do. I read over the site a little. It does not seem to support the numbers that was posted before. Sixty-eight million is much larger than 600,000. Nevertheless, my point was that there is no historical numbers. These are all estimates, and I find it unlikley that so many would die to the Church inquisition since practically all of the clergy would, then, have to hold the office of the inquisitor.
To be called a heretic or tried as a heretic, one must already be a baptised and Catholic. It's canon law.
M*W, I don't have to defend myself. Abortionist kill millions of unborn babies each year. For example, what would happen if the Church had killed Martin Luther? Would that have saved mankind from the hundred years war and the atrocities commited in Ireland?
Since you say you were a Catechism teacher, you should know that the Catechism does not limit God to salvation through baptism, only that the Church knows of no other way.
Perhaps. Some of the stuff you said suggest that you had already fallen from your faith. What angered me was that you forced baptism on infants. It's wrong. To not see that as wrong, as a practicing Catholic, suggest that you were already misguided since I know that the holy Spirit did not tell you do so. Your other mistake is in believing that true discerment is in your suroundings. True discernment does not just see exterior of yourself, but within yourself.
Revelation is different from belief..
okinrus said:
Well, that's my point. It's useless for humans to define their own perfection. While your "whim" could be correct, there would be know way for you to know for sure.
I've never read any such thing about the Greeks.
Well, since you don't know for sure whether that's 600,000, 9 million or some other number, your point is moot. Furthermore, you can't even claim that these women were not witches.
Don't even try... Protestants are of entirely different organization than the Church. You cannot put forth Protestant inquisitions as Catholic ones, and the thirteen or so women were killed in the Salem witch trials, not by men but by other women.
All I'm suggesting is that what you did before was "wrong" insofar as you were a Catholic. When I use wrong here, I mean that it deteroriates your faith, which is why I did not say that it was necessarily sinful. In fact, from what you said it does not seem that you are in any way morally responsible for the action, but that does not mean that the effects of the action won't be present.
Although there were some Catholic theologians such as Augustine that said that the Jews should be forcebly baptised against their parents will, Thomas Aquinas rejected this. Namely because forced baptism was never practiced by the Church and since the baptised would most likely not keep the baptism vows, it makes a mockery of the sacrament. Now, that you are not a Catholic you are free to baptise however you like. However, priest can and do make mistakes.
You can read a debate of this topic <a href="http://www.cin.org/archives/cinporch/200102/0204.html">here</a>.
Yo Visitor,Quote Visitor
"The truth is so close to error in this day that the scriptures say it would deceive the "very elect" if it were posible.....but it's not."
Why would god want to almost decieve his "very elect" ?
Quote Visitor
"All the world shall be deceived and worship the image of the beast, who's names are not on the Lamb's book of life."
Why is god playing games? Who gets to be in the lambs book of life?
Allcare
okinrus said:
Well, unless if you can cite sources that have combed through all of the burnings of witches done explicitly by the Church(by the way, there is practically no extensive documentation) then it's worthless. You are also not clarifying whether you are speaking of the burnings done by the Church or secular goverments. Spain and protestant countries such as England also had Inquisitions. Attributing deaths to disparate, and sometimes opposing groups, is ineffective.
The Church herself rarely punished a witch by burning, since the witch would have to remain unrepentant throughout her inquisition.
Yes, I've seen the Crucible. It should not be accepted as completely factual. Relatively few "witches"(I can get you number if you'd like. I think it's only something like 50) were killed by the puritans since there were not that many witches to go around. The gender argument, while true that men who were giving more minor punishments than women, is also invalid simply because all of the accusers were women accusing women.
The Holocaust has less to do with religion and more to do with racial superiority and xenophobia. But if that many witches in the small population were killed during the Inquisition, then it's impact on the population would strikingly apparent.
okinrus said:
Medicine Woman said:
It matters a whole lot. There is certain fallacy in believing that Church and state were one throughout the middle ages. It does not mean that every decision that the state made was made by the Church.
No, the fact remains that the Protestants were independent of the Church. The Churches inquisition was probably a fair amount more formal than the Protestants and punishments differed.
Your not making any sense. Not differentiating between the Catholic inquisition and Protestant inquisition, would be like putting Jews in the same class as Christians. The degree of separation between the Protestants and Catholics was far greater than it is now.
You have absolutely no evidence of this. I have read four essays that give possible explanations of the Salem witch trials. They are <em>Economic and Political Causes</em>, <em>Gender Tensions</em>, <em>Character Traits</em>, and <em>Religious Tensions</em>. None of them suggest the sort misogyny that you are speaking of. For example, John Demons in <em>Character Traits</em> says <blockquote>
An easy hypothesis--perhaps to easy--would make of witchcraft a single plank in a platform of "sexist" oppression...[After admitting that puritan society was male dominated] There is little sign of generalized conflict between the sexes. Male dominance of public affairs was scarcely an issue, and in private life there was considerable scope for female initiative. Considered overall, the relations of men and women were less contrained by differences than latter generations of Americans...And one final point in this connection: a large portion of witchcraft charges were brought against women <em>by</em> other women. Thus, if the fear of witchcraft expressed a deep strain of misogyny, it was something in which both sexes shared....
The Church has never been Hitler's ally, though it's possible that before Hitler's true intentions were made evident the Church support him to further attack communism.
Well, if your speaking of lynching, then you can hardly blame the Church for those crimes... In fact, if you were to say that the majority of the burnings were lynchings, than you would support the Inquisition since a trial by an authority is far better than the mob.
Yes, when someone uses the word Church it refers specifically to the Catholic church alone.
Well, was the Catholic church stoping the spread of
The inquisition was developed primary to stop the spread of heresies such as the Albigensians. A cursory glance at history would show that proper teachings in the faith stops war, and that stoping these heresies meant stoping a war. In every case that a heresy rose to power, whether it be the Albigensians or the Protestants, there was always a bloody war. Why wait? And no the Catholics did not cause this war. They murdered Peter of Castelnau... http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/gui-cathars.html http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/heresy1.html http://brandt.kurowski.net/projects/lsa/wiki/view.cgi?doc=520 Plainly something much be done about them, so the Church founded the order of St. Dominic to combat heresy by preaching. Since most of the common people could not read, someone could lie by "the bible says this", and no one would notice.
St. Dominic was combating the Albgensians, a heresy that if allowed to spread would mean certain death to Europe or enslavement under the Muslims. Members of the Albigensians would commit suicide by starving themselves. From what I've read, though, St. Dominic only attended one witch burning; there is famous painting of it, and the order of St. Dominic was primarily a preaching order.
The majority of Albengensians, who were not perfects, were neither ascetic or peaceful, but it really would not matter insofar as heresy is concern. Anyone who is baptised Catholic, yet turns away from the faith has become a "heretic". As for it being incompatible, yes, suicide by starving oneself, because of the belief that the world is evil, and rejecting the sacrament of marriage is incompatible with the faith.