Will Christians ever express remorse for "witch" burning?

[Woody]

This posts is a perfect snapshot of christians and christianity. No different from any dishonest, biased, secular or not pighead.

You keep harping on the new testament and conveniently tuck away the old testament or anything that is shown to be flawed but NEVER admit it or disown it. Its a juggling act because you don't disagree with the old testament and its teachings. If christians believed the old testament teachings are wrong then they would drop it from their religion altogether but they DON'T. They don't because they do believe in it and are just patronizing nonchristians and putting on a facade and front because you know by today's standards it is despicable. Christians are just biding their time until they can again do what they do full force from societal constraints and resistance. In the meantime, they are trying to get as many recruits by projecting it as all innocent when in reality the ideology is not, it has a very dark side. Thats called false advertising and advertising is what christians do.





What do you mean by asking this question? Is it how many ways can you kill a witch? What is the proper way to kill a witch? Or is killing a witch just wrong?

If christians claim that every word, old testament and new testament wholly is the complete and perfect world of god and jesus christ is the son of god, how can you pose the question above? The obvious answer would be yes

Did not Jesus' father say don't suffer a witch to live? Is not the bible the perfect world of god? Is not god the father of christ? Are not god, his father and son one according to christianity? Then they have the same agenda and if it appears otherwise then they are both crooks and frauds playing both sides of the fence. Don't let the left hand know what the right hand is doing tactics.

The juggling act you you are talking about is law (old testament) vs. grace (new testament).

The work done by Jesus Christ supersedes the OT law.

Matthew 22:

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The OT law was a rulebook for the Jews, and the penalty is still in effect for everyone that doesn't follow christ. It is not for me or anyone else to administrate the penalty. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," says the Lord. Witches and such will pay their penalty in hell.

Love, on the otherhand, fulfills the OT law. Look at the OT laws and you will see that:

Thou shalt not kill - (are you showing love when you murder someone?)

Thou shalt not steal (are you showing love when you steal from someone?)

Thou shalt not commit adultery (are you showing love to your spouse when you commit adultery).

Thou shalt not bear false witness (are showing love when you lie to slander someone's reputation)

Honor you father and mother ( are you showing love to your parents when you show them disrespect?)

yadda, yadda

If christians claim that every word, old testament and new testament wholly is the complete and perfect world of god and jesus christ is the son of god, how can you pose the question above? The obvious answer would be yes

Jesus said: John 3:16-17

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jesus didn't come to the earth to bring death, rather to bring life. He was not sent to condemn the world, rather to save it. Witches are on the list of people that have been saved. They fall in the idolater category.

I Cor 6:

9Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor *homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

So I ask again, Did Jesus condone witch-burning? Can you show it in the bible, as well as anything else he said or did that was wrong?

 

[SnakeLord]

As a christian I have refused to do that, instead I have "affirmed" to tell the truth in the court proceding because the bible says I should never swear by anything, but let my yea be yea, and my nay be nay.

Have you ever been to court and said: "I wont do it, let my yea be yea and my nay be nay"?

But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath

'Fear the LORD your God, serve him only and take your oaths in his name'

'When a man makes a vow to the LORD or takes an oath to obligate himself by a pledge, he must not break his word but must do everything he said'

Making oaths seems to be quite standard and acceptable according to god. He even goes so far as to tell you to.

Does Brittain allow the affirmation option or is it more primitive and intolerant to peoples' religious beliefs

Being that the country is largely run by christians, it wouldn't be a surprise if it was primitive and intolerant - given that christians are more primitive and intolerant than most. However, I don't for one second believe you were asking a serious question.

Oh, and it's Britain.

forcing them to swear on a bible against their own conscience?

That's what christians do. Why, just recently I read a news report about christians that refused to give the tsunami victims aid unless they converted to christianity.

I've even seen pretty much every christian on this forum insulting christians at some stage or another. The usual story is "they're fakes, I'm a "true" christian", but it just goes to show that even christians don't like christians. You think they're just as much scumbags as the rest of us do.

It did not come from christianpropaganda.com. Rather it came from a group of people (Wiccans) that were on the flaming end of the stake. These are the witches of this day and time.

The site simply has no credibility. "Harry Potter is evil", is as far as anyone need read before dismissing it.

Yes, I expect you to take the information seriously.

For what valid reason?

Quite humorous, and you told me Jesus was about as real as the tooth fairy, Lenny the Leprechaun, et al. Are you now discriminating between "real" fairy tales and fake ones?

Eh? What are you blithering on about?

Jesus did not break the sabbath law[/quote

Yes he did.

“ I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it? ”

The question has no relevance to Old Testament law - which is what you claimed he never broke.

 

[Woody]

Have you ever been to court and said: "I wont do it, let my yea be yea and my nay be nay"?

Yes I have, and I refused to swear on a bible, that I considered it a sacred text, that my savior commands me not to swear by anything lest I fall into condemnation (which I would really like to avoid). They gave me the option to "affirm to tell the truth". Which I did. It works in a civil society where more christian people live -- as in america. Now with all the atheists brittian has, swearing on a bible shouldn't mean anything anyway, should it? Why not swear on a roll of toilet paper?

The question has no relevance to Old Testament law - which is what you claimed he never broke.

Proove that he broke it.

 

[SnakeLord]

It works in a civil society where more christian people live -- as in america. Now with all the atheists brittian has, swearing on a bible shouldn't mean anything anyway, should it? Why not swear on a roll of toilet paper?

Swearing on a book has never meant anything to an atheist, but that is hardly the point.

Proove that he broke it.

Ok, firstly let's take a look at god's laws - old testament laws:

"Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out."

"but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates"

"There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD"

"You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy"

"Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people"

"Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death."

"but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."

Now... Let's take a look at little jesus:

'Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working."'

'For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.'

The statements shown above prove beyond any questionable doubt that jesus was in fact breaking old testament law. He might have had a new testament excuse, but was still breaking old testament law.

According to god, jesus should be put to death, (and he was).

Jesus openly admitted he was working on the sabbath, and the jews pointed out that he was indeed breaking old testament law. By his very own words jesus admits that he was breaking old testament law.

Case proven, you're wrong, apology accepted.

Have a nice day.

 

[Woody]

Jesus openly admitted he was working on the sabbath, and the jews pointed out that he was indeed breaking old testament law. By his very own words jesus admits that he was breaking old testament law.

Case proven, you're wrong, apology accepted.

Have a nice day.

So we come full circle: Mark 3:4

And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.

I asked you the same question, and likewise you held your peace. So tell me Snakelord is it lawful to do good on the sabbath?

5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other. 6 And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him.

Jesus helped somebody on the sabbath -- the sin of it all.

What do you think about that Snakelord -- does the OT law tell Jews to shut down the Hospital Emergency Room on the sabbath day? That people shouldn't be helped that are in desperate need?

And the intensive care unit, er uh we're just throwing the power switch off and walkin away because of the holy sabbath. They'll just have to make it on their own for 24 hours. Lights out!

And the baby that drowned in the bathtub, well we'll get around to some recussitation after our 'lil ole sabbatical. And the lady that choked on her food --well she'll just have to tough it out another day, until we come back to help her.

Snakelord Is this your idea of how the sabbath day works according to the old testament law? Whatta joke! :bugeye:

 

[cole grey]

There used to be fornication laws but they don't do any good, just like the sodomy laws of today.

some people say the same about abortion laws - people would still get abortions.
Never mind though, I don't have a strong conviction either way on that issue. I was just asking about your idea of guilt and at least you are consistent, so I didn't catch you in being inconsistent. But having pre-marital sex laws is crazy.

 

[SnakeLord]

So we come full circle: Mark 3:4

And here we see you using new testament to try and outdo old testament. Your original claim was that jesus had never broken old testament laws - not new testament version of old testament laws. Kindly get that straight before continuing.

So tell me Snakelord is it lawful to do good on the sabbath?

As the old testament law stands, it is a day of rest - where you do not do any work or go out.

Jesus helped somebody on the sabbath -- the sin of it all.

Indeed, and escalating sin at that. The first man shouldn't have been in a position to need help if he had have been paying attention to old testament laws - and jesus wouldn't have been out helping law breakers if he was paying attention to those old testament laws that you claimed he never broke.

does the OT law tell Jews to shut down the Hospital Emergency Room on the sabbath day?

I assume you do not have the ability to read? No work, resting and not going out would kind of prevent the ability to run a hospital on the sabbath day. That is old testament law.

That people shouldn't be helped that are in desperate need?

If those people are at home, resting and obeying the sabbath they shouldn't be in desperate need of help - and if they do happen to die while resting, then we can put it down as god's will - and indeed we should be joyous and happy for them.

And the baby that drowned in the bathtub

Being as it's the sabbath, there shouldn't be any babies in bathtubs.

Snakelord Is this your idea of how the sabbath day works according to the old testament law?

Once you learn to read you will see what old testament law involves. Don't try and take it out on me, I did not make the laws. But it would stand to reason that anyone obeying god's laws would be looked after by god - and thus should not be choking on food or drowning in bathtubs. If they do, it is either retribution for the crimes of their fathers fathers father, or god has decided that it is their time to move on.

jesus still broke god's laws whether anyone drowned or not.

You have no case.

 

[Woody]

SL said:

Once you learn to read you will see what old testament law involves. Don't try and take it out on me, I did not make the laws. But it would stand to reason that anyone obeying god's laws would be looked after by god - and thus should not be choking on food or drowning in bathtubs. If they do, it is either retribution for the crimes of their fathers fathers father, or god has decided that it is their time to move on.

jesus still broke god's laws whether anyone drowned or not.

You have no case

Here is your best quote:

There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD"

So on the sabbath, they ARE NOT supposed to go out for any reason at all (according to you), but they ARE supposed to go out to the temple and have a day of sacred assembly. Your oxymorons are a riot! Another hilarious "Snakelord original".

Maybe you have it wrong, SL, maybe people are supposed to forsake their "livlihood" on the sabbath, so they will have time to go into assembly. Doesn't that seem a little more reasonable and consistent than your "extreme" view of the sabbath?

By the way there are 613 (DO'S, DON'TS) old testament laws, including the sabbath law. Anybody that breaks one is guilty of all . Check out the links. Also Noah, Abraham, Issaic, and Jacob did not observe a sabbath either.


Exodus 20:8-11

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Deuteronomy 5:12-18

12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

Snakelord, I wasn't a slave in Egypt, were you a slave in Egypt? But that's why God commanded "you" to obey the sabbath. Or maybe "you" doesn't mean us. Also I don't have any donkeys, maids, oxs and such. How about you? I do have a pet dog though, and I think I better let him out of his pet taxi to poop on the sabbath. That's more work than my wife typically wants to do, so she asks me to take care of it. Should I feel guilty for taking out the dog?

So you think Jesus broke the biblical sabbath law when he healed a man. Where did you get that from?

The law does not forbid works of service towards God. Indeed, the very reason we are commanded to cease from our own works on the Sabbath is so we may devote the time to the work of honoring and serving God.

Actually Jesus broke the pharisees' view of the sabbath (and yours as well I might add). The pharisees also worked on the sabbath and the laws of the sabbath were petty rules they used to "hedge" the sabbath day, making convenient exceptions when needed -- such as conducting their work in the temple on the sabbath.

Jesus was pretty irrate about it to when he said:

Mat15:9

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mat 7:13

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Mark 7:5

Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

Ironically, in an attempt to ensure their law-keeping by putting a "hedge" about the law, the Pharisees were breaking the law, for God had said: "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you" (Deuteronomy 4:2; also 12:32).

I'll give you examples of some of the Pharisees' petty rules from reference 1 and reference 2:

This is not from the bible:

For example, the law included detailed regulations regarding what constituted a "burden" that could not be carried on the Sabbath; for example, pieces of paper, horses hairs, wax, a piece of broken earthenware or animal food. Generally a burden was anything as heavy as a dried fig, or a quantity sufficient to be of any practical use (e.g. a scrap of paper large enough to be converted into a note or a wrapper). It prescribed what might or might not be saved if one’s house caught on fire. Only those clothes that were absolutely necessary could be saved. But one could put on a dress, save it, then go back and put on another. One could not ask a Gentile to extinguish the flames. But if he did so voluntarily, he should not be hindered. One could eat food on the Sabbath lawfully only if it had been specifically prepared for the Sabbath on a weekday. If a laying hen laid an egg on the Sabbath, it could not be eaten. But if the hen had been kept for fattening and not laying, the egg could be eaten, since it would be considered a part of the hen that had fallen off! These regulations considered studying the Mishna on the Sabbath more important than studying the Bible. The Hagiographa (the Old Testament "Writings") were not to be read on the Sabbath except in the evening. And there are many other similar examples.

This is not in the bible:

Of special interest to us are the laws regarding harvesting and healing on the Sabbath. Even the slightest activity involving picking grain—removing the husks, rubbing the heads, cleaning or bruising the ears or throwing them up in the hand—was forbidden. Yet if a man wanted to move a sheaf on his field, he had only to lay a spoon on it; then, in order to remove the spoon, he might also remove the sheaf on which it lay!

This is not biblical, and it is getting quite ridiculous -- what some people like you expect the sabbath to be, apart from the bible.

By the way Jesus said "I have kept my Father's commandments." (John 15:10) Are you calling Him a liar? Whose sabbath commandment did he really break?

He kept His Father's commandments, but He broke yours. :bugeye:

 

[SnakeLord]

So on the sabbath, they ARE NOT supposed to go out for any reason at all (according to you)

According to the old testament laws. Get it right.

but they ARE supposed to go out to the temple and have a day of sacred assembly

Where does it say they are supposed to go out? People can not assemble at home and worship? (even jesus said the right way to pray was to do so at home). I don't know why you made the "must go out" assumption.

Your oxymorons are a riot! Another hilarious "Snakelord original".

It's even more hilarious when you find out it's only because you fucked up.

maybe people are supposed to forsake their "livlihood" on the sabbath

Eh? Are you here and now telling me that having a day of resting and worshipping the lord is "forsaking their livelihood"? Don't let god hear you talk that way.

By the way there are 613 old testament laws, including the sabbath law. Anybody that breaks one is guilty of all

And.. seeings as jesus did, (and is consequently guilty of breaking them all), your original claim has now bitten the dust.

Also Noah, Abraham, Issaic, and Jacob did not observe a sabbath either.

How sweet, you're like one of those school kiddies that likes to pass the blame: "But they did it too!". That does not in any way, shape or form denounce your own crime.

Snakelord, I wasn't a slave in Egypt, were you a slave in Egypt?

No, and I also wasn't at the mountain when god gave the ten commandments.. so they mean nothing right? Look, if you want to argue that the bible is old and thus worthless, then please do so.

Should I feel guilty for taking out the dog?

As I have explained before: I did not make the rules - so don't come and blame me because you don't have an ox and your dog has to shit on the carpet on weekends. Don't blame me that god told you all to snip the end of your penis off, (if I was god I would have just created people with pre-snipped penises and saved all the hassle).

Once more to clarify: Snake, (that's me), did not make the rules. You can find any excuse you want to avoid adhering to them, but that's a problem you and your god need to solve together. K?

Actually Jesus broke the pharisees' view of the sabbath (and yours as well I might add)

jesus broke the old testament laws. You can still come up with new testament excuses all you like, but it doesn't change old testament law or your claim that jesus never broke old testament law. He just started whinging about those that did obey old testament law while he happily broke it.

the Pharisees were breaking the law

The pharisees could have chopped off their balls for all the relevance it has. Once again you display this playground attitude of trying to pass the buck on to everyone else: "but sir, he did it too". That does not in any way, shape or form change jesus' guilty status.

This is not biblical, and it is getting quite ridiculous -- what some people like you expect the sabbath to be

Again trying to blame me. I did not make the laws. K? Unless you think I'm god?

By the way Jesus said "I have kept my Father's commandments." (John 15:10) Are you calling Him a liar?

He kept Joseph commandments? I didn't know Joseph made any, but hey.. that's cool.

On a serious note, yes - I am calling him a liar. He even showed that he had broken god's laws in his own statement I quoted earlier.

 

[Woody]

SL said:

On a serious note, yes - I am calling him a liar. He even showed that he had broken god's laws in his own statement I quoted earlier.

The verse you showed me said his Father worked and He worked, after all Jesus is God in the new testament. Does anybody think God takes a nap every saturday and gives up control of the universe? I hope He doesn't -- if he does, then what happens to someone that dies on the sabbath? You said it was God's will for some people to die on the sabbath in an earlier statement (their time came)-- but now you say He's supposed to observe the sabbath. Does God surrender His control on the sabbath or not? Isn't He kind of negligent if He doesn't work on the sabbath? Geez

Compare what you say to what God the Father says in Matthew 17:5:

While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

This happened after the sabbath day incident in Matthew 12:10.

So Snakelord, God the Father didn't see a problem with the good works Jesus did on the Sabbath as you claim. It is honorable to do good on the sabbath.

Jesus already proclaimed He was Lord of the Sabbath Matthew 12:8. So God the Father didn't have a problem with Jesus as "king" of the Sabbath. but you do. The real problem for you is the bible itself, isn't it?

Where does it say they are supposed to go out? People can not assemble at home and worship? (even jesus said the right way to pray was to do so at home). I don't know why you made the "must go out" assumption.

Good you are catching on. That ordinance was given before the Jewish temple was built. But the Jews worshipped in the temple on the sabbath, did they not?

So in your "view" are the Jews viloating the sabbath commandment when they attend worship services on the sabbath, like they've always done since the temple was built?

No, and I also wasn't at the mountain when god gave the ten commandments.. so they mean nothing right?

So the "why" part of a commandment has no relevance in your mind. You said I sounded like a school kiddie, and now "How Sweet" as you say, you are sounding like one -- example:

"Well the rules are the rules and the teacher said I couldn't go outside today because I didn't finish my homework -- so I must stay inside while the school building burns down!"

"Why" doesn't matter? The teacher never meant it to be capital punishment.

That reminds me of a boss's story of a young lad he knew, that was always very respectful of his father and mother -- a fine lad. While the boss was visiting with the father, the lad came over to tell his dad something with urgency. The father said " Son, we are having an adult discussion here, and you know it is rude to interrupt." So the son stood there in a frantic state of affairs, waiting for his father's permission to speak. Finally his father gave in because his son's panic attack was a distraction to his conversation. He said ok son WHAT IS IT? The son said, " The house is on fire, and it's really looking bad, Dad, real bad!!!" Then the father said "Why didn't you tell me sooner?" Well Duh!

I did not make the laws. K? Unless you think I'm god?

Exactly the point. God didn't make the rules that the pharisees expected Jesus to obey. God gave a sabbath day as a day of rest from work (the kind of things donkeys maidservants, manservants, and such did in an agrarian economy) so all could render observance to God. Having your priorities right is part of "loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.." as he commanded.

The pharisees added to it until it was unbearible to live under. Jesus changed that, thank God!

 

[SnakeLord]

after all Jesus is God in the new testament.

This is fully open to debate, (and has been for quite a long while now). Until this part has been clarified, it has no value in this discussion.

Does anybody think God takes a nap every saturday and gives up control of the universe?

Who are you to say god doesn't? Just because he's god means he doesn't like a snooze every now and then? Listen kiddo, you of all people should know you cannot answer for god.

I hope He doesn't

Well, when you're dead and get to meet god, you can say to him: "Listen god, 'I hope you never slept'".

It's between you and god.

if he does, then what happens to someone that dies on the sabbath?

He uhh.. dies? What do you think happens to him? The bible mentions that all the dead people get up at the end times, (like a scene from night of the living dead). In the meantime I would assume they just remain underground in their coffins.

What exactly were you getting at? Are you under the belief that when people die they instantly go to "heaven"? But then how could that possibly be considering 'heaven' doesn't exist yet, and wont until the destruction of this planet? (As seen in revelations, 'heaven' comes in the form of a new jerusalem on a new earth). I'm sure the dead wont be that pissed that they had to wait a few weekends. If they do, it's between them and god.

Does God surrender His control on the sabbath or not?

Ask him. However, our debate is with concerns to whether jesus broke old testament laws. As far as old testament laws are concerned, yes he did.

Isn't He kind of negligent if He doesn't work on the sabbath?

How so?

So Snakelord, God the Father didn't see a problem with the good works Jesus did on the Sabbath as you claim.

I made a rule that nobody is to steal from my cookie jar. One morning while I was sleeping, my daughter went and took a couple of cookies. Yes, she had broken my rules - but I still love her, still tell the world how proud I am of her.

That's what fathers do. It doesn't change the fact that a rule had been broken - but it is the love parents have for their children.

The real problem for you is the bible itself, isn't it?

No more so than I have for Lord of the Rings.

So in your "view" are the Jews viloating the sabbath commandment when they attend worship services on the sabbath

It is not about 'my view'. It is about old testament law. I did not write those laws.

o the "why" part of a commandment has no relevance in your mind. You said I sounded like a school kiddie, and now "How Sweet" as you say, you are sounding like one -- example:

"Well the rules are the rules and the teacher said I couldn't go outside today because I didn't finish my homework -- so I must stay inside while the school building burns down!"

What the fuck are you blithering on about? You tried to excuse yourself from old testament laws on the basis that you weren't a slave in Egypt. I then showed just how idiotic that was by using a different example: (I wasn't a slave escapee in the desert so why pay attention to the ten commandments) - and the best you can do is waffle some unrelated garbage? Bizarre.

The pharisees added to it until it was unbearible to live under. Jesus changed that, thank God!

Well, when you can prove that the biblical quotes I used came from pharisees and not from god, then we can proceed. Of course, I would ask that you swear to almighty god that god did not say the things I quoted him as saying.

 

[Woody]

SL said:

What exactly were you getting at? Are you under the belief that when people die they instantly go to "heaven"?

I am a fundamentalist therefore the answer is "yes." (2 Cor 5:8)

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

During the resurrection the spirit is rejoined with the body that's brought out of the ground and made like christ's body -- Fundamentalism 101.

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

(Phil 3)

SL said:

Who are you to say god doesn't? Just because he's god means he doesn't like a snooze every now and then? Listen kiddo, you of all people should know you cannot answer for god.

Whatever He does He is still in control. Being God, He can do what He wants to.

What the fuck are you blithering on about?

When somebody makes a rule, the "why" part of it does matter quite a bit. You say the "why" part doesn't matter -- "a rule is a rule" (hence my example to show how ridiculous that can be). The intent of the sabbath rule is to reflect on the Lord, as the verse says. It wasn't given until the Jews left their slavery in egypt. No other commandment in the bible gives "freedom from slavery" as a reason for observing a commandment. Therefore the other commandments apply regardless of your presense or absense at the Mount Sinai presentation -- they address a behavioral code that most other civil people would consider "moral" -- ie don't kill, don't steal, don't commit perjury in a court of law, yadda yadda.

You have not answered my question about Jews attending the temple on the sabbath, and hence leaving their homes. Isn't this a violation of the Sabbath Law?

That's what fathers do. It doesn't change the fact that a rule had been broken - but it is the love parents have for their children.

But the Father said: "Listen to Him", and you didn't. Jesus said "I am Lord of the Sabbath." So, using your analogy, if your daughter goes around breaking the rules and commanding others to break the rules -- are you pleased about it? Do you put her in charge and tell everyone to listen and follow her example, especially if you have other children? I don't think so.

Let's face it -- you believe Jesus broke the sabbath law and I don't. If I prove I'm right, according to the bible, you remain an atheist and say it's all a fairy tale. So what's the point?

I beleive Jesus is Lord of the sabbath, and that it is lawful to do good things to help other people for God's glory on the sabbath. I believe that love fulfills all the laws of the prophets as Jesus said. Whenever there is a question about right or wrong, I ask the question "what is the loving and caring thing to do?" What maximizes love? A demand to shut down every hospital on the sabbath, would be an unloving, uncaring, brutal thing to do. This is not the God I believe in.

So go ahead and make Him out to be the bad guy. He isn't - you are.

 

[SnakeLord]

I am a fundamentalist therefore the answer is "yes." (2 Cor 5:8)

The biblical quote you used doesn't even hint at instantly going to 'heaven'.

from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body

You're all going to look like jesus? Lol.

No other commandment in the bible gives "freedom from slavery" as a reason for observing a commandment. Therefore the other commandments apply regardless of your presense or absense at the Mount Sinai presentation

Eh? You've made a tragically weak excuse to ignore a law: (I wasn't in Egypt). Anyone else can do the exact same thing with any other commandment or law.

Example: A gay person can say "I don't think homosexuality is detestable, and thus it doesn't apply to me".

It's exactly the same thing.

You have not answered my question about Jews attending the temple on the sabbath, and hence leaving their homes. Isn't this a violation of the Sabbath Law?

I didn't see the relevance of continually trying to shift the focus onto other people. We are discussing jesus breaking the OT laws, not everyone else doing the same. The reason we're discussing jesus is because you stated that "jesus had never broken an OT law". Just to keep you happy, sure - they are going against the law, the word, that god commanded. Whether he chooses to pay attention to it or punish them for it, forgive them for it, or ignore it entirely is completely upto him.

But the Father said: "Listen to Him", and you didn't. Jesus said "I am Lord of the Sabbath."

jesus can be whatever he wants to be, that is not the issue. He can make new laws, change old ones yada yada - but he did break the OT laws that the father dictated them to be. I don't care what he did or does, but it refutes your claim that he did not.

Do you put her in charge and tell everyone to listen and follow her example, especially if you have other children? I don't think so.

Actually yes I do, but then I consider my daughter to be perfect. When her 7 or so nieces and nephews come round, I put her in charge of them.

Let's face it -- you believe Jesus broke the sabbath law and I don't.

It's not about belief, it's about the text. That text was shown earlier which completely refutes your statements. The rule consisted of not doing any work, to which jesus openly admits doing work on the sabbath. That is breaking OT law whether you like it or not.

[quoteIf I prove I'm right, according to the bible, you remain an atheist and say it's all a fairy tale. So what's the point?[/quote]

It is all a fairy tale, even you're smart enough to know that - but that doesn't in any way dissuade discussion. LOTR is also fiction but my friends and I regularly discuss it.

I beleive Jesus is Lord of the sabbath, and that it is lawful to do good things to help other people for God's glory on the sabbath.

From the NT way of doing things, certainly - but not if we're discussing OT law.

A demand to shut down every hospital on the sabbath, would be an unloving, uncaring, brutal thing to do. This is not the God I believe in.

But you believe in an 'all-loving' god that is willing to watch the mass majority of his children burn in an eternal lake of fire - where there's gnashing of teeth yada yada, a god that drowned every living thing on the planet etc etc etc. You're quite amusing.

So go ahead and make Him out to be the bad guy.

How am I bad? I have never drowned, burnt or killed one person.

I mean sheesh.. You'd probably label Hitler as being bad. It's odd considering Hitler, (although not personally), only killed a few million jews. Your god killed every jew.

 

[c7ityi_]

But you believe in an 'all-loving' god that is willing to watch the mass majority of his children burn in an eternal lake of fire - where there's gnashing of teeth yada yada, a god that drowned every living thing on the planet etc etc etc. You're quite amusing.

Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven belongs to children.

I mean sheesh.. You'd probably label Hitler as being bad. It's odd considering Hitler, (although not personally), only killed a few million jews. Your god killed every jew.

If God kills he does it for universal justice.

 

[SnakeLord]

Jesus said that the kingdom of heaven belongs to children.

Interesting, but of very little relevance to my quote.

If God kills he does it for universal justice.

Murder is murder. Anyone and everyone can make some excuse for murder, even Hitler had an excuse, but murder remains murder. A nazi would defend Hitler's excuse as much as you're defending god's. That doesn't make murder anything less than murder.

 

[c7ityi_]

Murder is murder. Anyone and everyone can make some excuse for murder, even Hitler had an excuse, but murder remains murder. A nazi would defend Hitler's excuse as much as you're defending god's. That doesn't make murder anything less than murder.

It's only murder if a human kills. If an earthquake kills, it's not murder. You mistake God for being a human.

 

[Woody]

SL said:

Ok, firstly let's take a look at god's laws - old testament laws:

"Everyone is to stay where he is on the seventh day; no one is to go out."

You continue to avoid my question about the Jews that left their homes to worship at the temple on the sabbath. Also the priests performed their occupational work duties at the temple on the sabbath during the worship services.

For the 3rd time I ask --DID Jewish worship at the temple in Jerusalem break the sabbath law?

If you can not answer this question then I see no point in continuing this discussion, and thusly this will be my last post to you regarding the sabbath.

Anyone else can do the exact same thing with any other commandment or law.

such as:

Thou shalt not kill -- remember you owe me one because I brought you out of slavery in egypt..

Thou shalt not steal -- remember you owe me one because I brought you out of slavery in egypt..

The biblical quote you used doesn't even hint at instantly going to 'heaven'.

Actually it does, but since you are being hardheaded I'll give you another: Mark 9:2-4

And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

But Moses was dead and buried on earth, yet he appeared unto them. That takes care of your question about what saints will look like too. Odviously Peter, James, and John knew who Elias and Moses were without the benefit of pictures.

Example: A gay person can say "I don't think homosexuality is detestable, and thus it doesn't apply to me".

It's exactly the same thing.

He can do what he wants and the bible promises him a place in hell. I've already given the verses that say that.

For violating the sabbath, the wilderness Hebrews were promised to be cut off from their people and stoned to death. Odviously the Jewish people no longer stone someone for breaking the sabbath law. Now if you kill someone, you'll probably be executed.

 

[SnakeLord]

It's only murder if a human kills. If an earthquake kills, it's not murder. You mistake God for being a human.

Are you purposely being silly? Nowhere did I imply a god would be human, but sentient - able to make choices, understanding of morals, understanding of what death is.

An earthquake does not choose to kill people, god did - just like Hitler.

Shoo flea.

You continue to avoid my question about the Jews that left their homes to worship at the temple on the sabbath. Also the priests performed their occupational work duties at the temple on the sabbath during the worship services.

For the 3rd time I ask --DID Jewish worship at the temple in Jerusalem break the sabbath law?

Just some friendly advice: Before making complaints in very big letters, it's worth reading my post. If you had have done so, you'll see I did answer your question. K?

While I have no problem talking with you, I'd rather you be awake first.

Thou shalt not kill -- remember you owe me one because I brought you out of slavery in egypt..

Thou shalt not steal -- remember you owe me one because I brought you out of slavery in egypt..

Why do you keep getting hooked up on "egypt" as an excuse to disobey laws? Egypt is irrelevant.

Actually it does, but since you are being hardheaded I'll give you another: Mark 9:2-4

Not once in that quote does it mention heaven. As you say: they were dead and buried on earth, (earth woody, earth). So jesus brought them up out of the earth and gave them the ability to talk. Mini-god's have that power.

He can do what he wants and the bible promises him a place in hell. I've already given the verses that say that.

Certainly, as can you. I don't know how good an excuse: "but god, I wasn't in egypt!" is going to be, but that's between you and god I suppose.

Odviously the Jewish people no longer stone someone for breaking the sabbath law.

No, they don't. I wonder if they'll excuse it by saying they weren't in egypt either.

Of course, what you wouldn't understand, is that ancient texts and laws only work for specific times and cultures. We simply cannot go around anymore sacrifing 30 oxen a day - and thus have no choice but to dismiss the laws. That doesn't mean the laws are no longer laws, it just means man has decided to ignore them.

The majority of laws are now ignored, (although jews have certainly tried to obey as many as they possibly can). Christians eat pig, even though god expressed his laws concerning that, christians don't get circumcised etc etc etc. That is not because the laws have been done away with by god - jesus himself stated "not one dot, not one stroke", and several other statements that showed man is to obey all the laws - but that man has done away with them. You can see this even in your very next statement:

Now if you kill someone, you'll probably be executed.

god has his laws, man have theirs. Man's laws supercede god's laws. You have little choice but to ignore god's laws in fear of man's laws.

Like Twain said; there was a time when the god followers obeyed god's laws concerning witches. In earnest they went around killing them as god had told them to. Eventually man's laws interceded, and the act became moot. The text and law still remains, but man simply ignores it now.

Btw, to quickly address some statements you made earlier to someone else:

Thou shalt not kill - (are you showing love when you murder someone?)

Sometimes, yes. Might I ask if you have seen Million Dollar Baby? When Clint kills Hilary, he is in fact doing it because of love and compassion. While we can debate euthanasia, it does stand that killing can be done expressly because you're showing love.

Thou shalt not steal (are you showing love when you steal from someone?)

Sometimes, yes. My daughter steals my cigarettes from me when I'm not looking. She is showing pure love by doing so.

Thou shalt not commit adultery (are you showing love to your spouse when you commit adultery).

This is a more complex issue - but again in certain circumstances yes. If you want to get into details on this one, kindly ask. It would be a bit long winded to type in detail right now.

Thou shalt not bear false witness (are showing love when you lie to slander someone's reputation)

Again, yes. (I'm trying to work out why you have put limits on the law in your brackets).

My daughter broke the greenhouse. My wife asked if she did it. I gave false witness and said "no", and that I had done it. I lied all because I was showing love.

Honor you father and mother ( are you showing love to your parents when you show them disrespect?)

If they get divorced and your mother asked you to not talk to your father, (or do something equally disrespectful), you wouldn't be showing love to him by listening to her - but you would be showing love to her, and vice versa.

It's all about perspective Woody.

 

[Woody]

Woody Originally said:

You continue to avoid my question about the Jews that left their homes to worship at the temple on the sabbath. Also the priests performed their occupational work duties at the temple on the sabbath during the worship services.

For the 3rd time I ask --DID Jewish worship at the temple in Jerusalem break the sabbath law?

SL said:

Just some friendly advice: Before making complaints in very big letters, it's worth reading my post. If you had have done so, you'll see I did answer your question. K?

Is this your answer to the question asked?:

Where does it say they are supposed to go out? People can not assemble at home and worship? (even jesus said the right way to pray was to do so at home). I don't know why you made the "must go out" assumption.

Don't use Jesus for an excuse -- if he broke the sabbath as you say, then we shouldn't take his advice on how to worship God.

Or perhaps this is your answer:

It's even more hilarious when you find out it's only because you fucked up.

It's funny that you don't have a real answer to the question.

Or maybe this is your best answer (it doesn't even make sense):

Eh? Are you here and now telling me that having a day of resting and worshipping the lord is "forsaking their livelihood"? Don't let god hear you talk that way.

Sounds like a case of dementia.

Egypt is irrelevant.

Just like Deut 5:12-18, the sabbath commandment in which it is embedded?

 

[c7ityi_]

Are you purposely being silly? Nowhere did I imply a god would be human, but sentient - able to make choices, understanding of morals, understanding of what death is.

An earthquake does not choose to kill people, god did - just like Hitler.

Not my God. He is not sentient. He is impersonal (selfless). God does not choose, he does everything for love.