Wicked thoughts

[jpappl]

I understand that various religions have their own rules regarding sex before marriage and sex using prevention.

My question is why do they want to make sex other than for pro-creation dirty and wrong ?

It is an impossible position to maintain. Fighting natures strongest impulse.

Here's a funny clip, one of my favorites that better explains it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ArWZIGLiRs

 

[Adstar]

I understand that various religions have their own rules regarding sex before marriage and sex using prevention.

My question is why do they want to make sex other than for pro-creation dirty and wrong ?

It is an impossible position to maintain. Fighting natures strongest impulse.

"It is an impossible position to maintain. Fighting natures strongest impulse."

And that is a belief that many people so desire to believe. Cause they believe it can justify their desires and free them to do as they wish.

But the truth be told that millions and millions have come to their marriage without having committed physical fornication and adultery.

Now that’s a fact that many people will do their utmost to resist.

But the truth is the truth. Whether one accepts it or resists it makes not one jot of difference to the truth being the truth.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[jpappl]

But the truth be told that millions and millions have come to their marriage without having committed physical fornication and adultery.

Sure, but what about after your married ?

By the way I think you can only comit adultery if your married.

 

[The Esotericist]

My question is why do they want to make sex other than for pro-creation dirty and wrong ?

I think making it "dirty or wrong" has been, through the millenniums, a shortcut to explain a complicated spiritual truth, to those who would otherwise clearly just not be able to understand "why" they must not act like animals. Perhaps, no, now, as human consciousness as a whole has grown more mature overall, religions on balance would do well to abandon such primitive notions in favor of more mature and logical explanations.

That being said, it does not change the fact that it is STILL legitimate wisdom considering the average lifespan of the individual member of our species, and the birthrate that continues to dominate in most areas of the globe. The planet and it's resources are beyond stressed. On top of this, it is an ABSOLUTE SELFISH CRIME for any child to grow up with out a mother and a father. Any one who tells themselves otherwise is more interested in themselves than the child. Everyone deserves to have a happy childhood, and to wake up every morning with a mom and a dad nearby if at all possible. This sort of sexual ethic does nothing to further this for the children. NOTHING is more important than children.

Family is the bedrock of human society. Only in modern times has reliable and safe birth control been available. And even today, it is not used and practiced with any amount of sustained reliable regularity.

As such, the results of "sex as recreation" for those who are not spiritually mature, which indeed, accounts for the vast majority of the earths population, leads to many things. If we don't even include the unwanted pregnancy and disease, which is the obvious ramifications, then what we have is the fodder for EVERY song, story, book, television show, movie, art work, poem, piece of medium every devoted to "love" or relationships and the heartache which comes about because humans are not able to successfully navigate the murky waters of using reproduction for it's intended purpose.

The irony? For those who ARE spiritually mature? Sex is no longer necessary, except for procreation. And, even then, as the world is on the brink of destruction due to over crowding, the spiritually mature person has to think long and hard about why they want to bring a child into the world, when so many children are in need of homes as it stands. I think of all the esteemed spiritual leaders who have maintained celebate lifestyles, i.e. the Dali Lama, Mother Theresa, Popes, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, etc., and it is somehow your contention that these evolved individuals, even in their youth, somehow needed to obey natures strongest impulse?
Methinks you have a difficult time even comprehending walking in anothers shoes? :shrug:

 

[The Esotericist]

Sure, but what about after your married ?

By the way I think you can only commit adultery if your married.

Depends on whose definition. According to the worlds largest religion, premarital sex is adultery.

 

[jpappl]

Family is the bedrock of human society. Only in modern times has reliable and safe birth control been available. And even today, it is not used and practiced with any amount of sustained reliable regularity.

Right, but why ? Why do you think we are so in the dark on this subject but yet it is readily available.

The irony? For those who ARE spiritually mature? Sex is no longer necessary, except for procreation. And, even then, as the world is on the brink of destruction due to over crowding, the spiritually mature person has to think long and hard about why they want to bring a child into the world, when so many children are in need of homes as it stands. I think of all the esteemed spiritual leaders who have maintained celebate lifestyles, i.e. the Dali Lama, Mother Theresa, Popes, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, etc., and it is somehow your contention that these evolved individuals, even in their youth, somehow needed to obey natures strongest impulse?
Methinks you have a difficult time even comprehending walking in anothers shoes?

Well my eyes crossed when I read, "For those who ARE spiritually mature? Sex is no longer necessary"

You mean too old ?

I mean c'mon. Give me a break. Your basically saying they have rid themselves of their instincts.

I'm ok with the rest of it because I agree we should be prepared to take care of any children we bring in the world.

My issue is with the denial of sex as a need ?

 

[EmmZ]

I think making it "dirty or wrong" has been, through the millenniums,

Humans have not been around for "millenniums".

a shortcut to explain a complicated spiritual truth, to those who would otherwise clearly just not be able to understand "why" they must not act like animals.

I think humans are far worse than animals in terms of sexual depravity.

Perhaps, no, now, as human consciousness as a whole has grown more mature overall,

If they have matured spiritually why would "overpopulation" be on the rise?

religions on balance would do well to abandon such primitive notions in favor of more mature and logical explanations.

What is illogical about religious doctrine? If we have matured, surely there would be a greater understanding of appropriate sexual conduct rather than a misunderstanding of the "primitive" ones, if we have matured surely we would be able to use the "primitive" doctrine and expand upon that with out new found maturity?

That being said, it does not change the fact that it is STILL legitimate wisdom considering the average lifespan of the individual member of our species, and the birthrate that continues to dominate in most areas of the globe.

I don't understand your point here. Are you saying we should still adhere to religious doctrine in order to stem the "overpopulation" of the world? If that is the case than only irreligious countries would have an overpopulation crisis, since those adhering to religious doctrine would apply the legitimate wisdom of their religion and only have sex to procreate (in your proposal of what religious ethics concerning sexual practice is about. I disagree and would say the religious stance on sex is mostly concerned with fidelity and moral sexual conduct. That just isn't happening in a world where most people do follow some religion.

The planet and it's resources are beyond stressed.

Again, this only goes to prove the world is not increasing in maturity but declining.

On top of this, it is an ABSOLUTE SELFISH CRIME for any child to grow up with out a mother and a father.

If you're talking about biological parents then some children are far happier not having them around if it's beneficial for some reasons.

Any one who tells themselves otherwise is more interested in themselves than the child.

that entirely depends on the individual case.

Everyone deserves to have a happy childhood, and to wake up every morning with a mom and a dad nearby if at all possible. This sort of sexual ethic does nothing to further this for the children. NOTHING is more important than children.

What is sexual ethics?

Family is the bedrock of human society. Only in modern times has reliable and safe birth control been available.

Not true, condoms have been around for centuries. [/quote] And even today, it is not used and practiced with any amount of sustained reliable regularity.[/quote] Evidence? Birth rate Vs contraception use rates.

As such, the results of "sex as recreation" for those who are not spiritually mature, which indeed, accounts for the vast majority of the earths population, leads to many things.

Again, you have contradicted your first statement which I thought was that we have matured in conciousness.

If we don't even include the unwanted pregnancy and disease, which is the obvious ramifications, then what we have is the fodder for EVERY song, story, book, television show, movie, art work, poem, piece of medium every devoted to "love" or relationships and the heartache which comes about because humans are not able to successfully navigate the murky waters of using reproduction for it's intended purpose.

The context of love is not usually about unwanted pregnancy or disease, I think they're sometimes about the pains that come with love: unrequited or the loss of a loved one.

The irony? For those who ARE spiritually mature? Sex is no longer necessary, except for procreation.

No strictly true. Some religious practices encourage sex in a committed relationship to bond partners together and share a deep and loving experience with each other.

And, even then, as the world is on the brink of destruction due to over crowding, the spiritually mature person has to think long and hard about why they want to bring a child into the world, when so many children are in need of homes as it stands. I think of all the esteemed spiritual leaders who have maintained celebate lifestyles, i.e. the Dali Lama,

Claims have been this "Guru" hasn't been the epitome of peace and serentiy his image would have you believe

Mother Theresa,

She's the only one in this list I have any respect as a spiritual leader.

Popes,

That's highly debatable too.

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi,

Fraud and sex scandals have dogged this Man-Guru for decades

etc., and it is somehow your contention that these evolved individuals,

In what respect are these examples, with the exception of Mother Theresa (I have no beef with her), "evolved"?

even in their youth, somehow needed to obey natures strongest impulse?
Methinks you have a difficult time even comprehending walking in anothers shoes? :shrug:

I really don't want to come across as a cynic here but this seems a little bit short sighted to say one person needs to see another person's point of view while clearly not seeing theirs. I'm by no means putting my case forward as an expert and welcome any counter arguments. I'm also not trying to debunk everything you've said, my intention is, with respect for your's and others' opinions, to open this up for debate.

 

[jpappl]

Adultery,

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/adultery

 

[DiamondHearts]

There is nothing wrong with this, as long as it is preserved in the institution of marriage. In Islamic cultures, it is impossible for those women and men who are known to by unchaste to get married. In fact, the Quran forbids it. By and large, the institution of marriage is maintained in most cultures, and only recently, esp. in the West, has it been challenged.

 

[S.A.M.]

Actually, DH, I think it is more likely that couples will stick together even through infidelities in Islamic societies. Divorce is opted for more easily in westernised societies when relations break down over extramarital affairs.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Actually, DH, I think it is more likely that couples will stick together even through infidelities in Islamic societies. Divorce is opted for more easily in westernised societies when relations break down over extramarital affairs.

Agreed, yet it is far more common in the West. However the fact remains that most Muslim families will not marry their sons or daughters with people known to be unchaste. In the West, this issue is of complete irrelevance as nearly the entire populace is unchaste before marriage.

 

[S.A.M.]

most Muslim families will not marry their sons or daughters with people known to be unchaste

Is that an issue in Pakistan? I don't know anyone who examines people for sexual habits even in Saudi Arabia. Seems to me the whole "honour" issue is very North Indian/NWFP/Pashtun. I see this even in non-Muslims from the region.

 

[DiamondHearts]

Is that an issue in Pakistan? I don't know anyone who examines people for sexual habits even in Saudi Arabia. Seems to me the whole "honour" issue is very North Indian/NWFP/Pashtun. I see this even in non-Muslims from the region.

SAM, why do you always insult my nationality, even when it has nothing to do with the subject?

What I mean is that in most cultures, people are known for their behaviors, especially in tight-knit villages and neighborhoods throughout Asia, Africa, and Europe. This is not a Muslim thing only, the many Christians of the old world practice the customs the same way as us. Chastity is much desired of a man or woman, and it is unfortunate that in the modern Western culture it has lost the prestigious place it once had in joining to individuals in marriage.

 

[S.A.M.]

Its not an insult unless you consider it so. I have roamed around the Middle East and in India and the US and the only place where I have seen such strict notions about chastity is in the Northern parts of India. Rajputs and Marwaris also follow the same notions of chastity and have strict regulations on sexual behaviour. I assume that Pakistanis and Pathans have similar notions, although in my experience, Pakistani men tend to not be as strict, they just don't like their dirty laundry aired in public. I am born and brought up in Bombay and my ideas about sexuality are more progressive.

 

[John99]

I understand that various religions have their own rules regarding sex before marriage and sex using prevention.

My question is why do they want to make sex other than for pro-creation dirty and wrong ?

It is an impossible position to maintain. Fighting natures strongest impulse.

Here's a funny clip, one of my favorites that better explains it.

you wont get rid of this ever. people are too concerned about what others are doing. throw in a little 'do as i say, not as i do' and wrap it up in a ball.

 

[DiamondHearts]

SAM, devout Muslims and devout Christians (except the West) are both generally strict about affairs and unchaste behavior. We cannot isolate religious and social morality of this kind only to a particular region.

I can tell you for a fact that it is not isolated to one country, as I have witnessed this in numerous Middle Eastern countries including Iran, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Egypt. There are errant youth who engage in this behavior in all societies, but it is remarkably much less in religious Muslim and Christian societies.

 

[S.A.M.]

Hmm, I have met people from all of the above and I am not referring to nonreligious or "errant youth". Perhaps you're too young to participate in adult conversations.

 

[jpappl]

There is nothing wrong with this, as long as it is preserved in the institution of marriage. In Islamic cultures, it is impossible for those women and men who are known to by unchaste to get married. In fact, the Quran forbids it. By and large, the institution of marriage is maintained in most cultures, and only recently, esp. in the West, has it been challenged.

So if you were married and divorced you could not get married again ?

In Islamic cultures, do they promote and allow the use of contraception or do they forbid it ?

 

[S.A.M.]

In Islamic cultures, do they promote and allow the use of contraception or do they forbid it ?

Depends on who you ask, I think. Most people see nothing wrong with contraception, as long as it not used out of fear and is consensual. Some people believe irreversible contraception should be prohibited. There is nothing in the Quran and I know only one Hadith which says something like, if God wants to create a child nothing can prevent it, etc.

There is no single attitude to contraception within Islam; however eight of the nine classic schools of Islamic law permit it.

But more conservative Islamic leaders have openly campaigned against the use of condoms or other birth control methods, thus making population planning in many countries ineffective.

This resistance to birth control was reflected in 2005 when a conference involving 40 Islamic scholars from 21 countries urged fresh efforts to push population planning and better reproductive health services.

But although all the participants were in favour of promoting the use of contraceptives for married couples, they were reluctant to make it part of their joint declaration for fear of reprisals from the more conservative Islamic scholars in their respective countries.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/islamethics/contraception.shtml

 

[Lori_7]

I guess if you take the lust and greed out of sex its just no fun huh?