why we need ghosts

[Magical Realist]

And the research with the best controls never produced any persuasive results that supported the existence of any of the phenomena under investigation.

Is that why Princeton's Global Consciousness Project is still going strong after all these years?

http://noosphere.princeton.edu/

 

[sideshowbob]

I didn't make up spirits. That concept has been around for a long time, even before the birth of civilization.

You made up the connection between real-life observations and "spirits". You could just as easily said that the observations are of fairies or Martians.

When the facts match what we know about this phenomenon, it becomes the most logical explanation.

No. The most logical explanation is still, "We don't know."

 

[Magical Realist]

You made up the connection between real-life observations and "spirits". You could just as easily said that the observations are of fairies or Martians.

LOL! No I didn't. That's been happening a long time. As I said, before the birth of civilization. Every culture that's ever existed has had a belief that spirits manifest in the real world.

No. The most logical explanation is still, "We don't know."

That's what you'd say. I can just picture you on a paranormal investigation arguing with all the investigators. "I heard voices in the empty room, but we just don't what it is." "I saw a ball of light down the hallway, be we just don't what it is." "I got an EMF spike in the cemetery, but we just don't know what it is." You'd be laughed out there in a minute.

 

[DaveC426913]

LOL! No I didn't.

You are making the connection here.

You are welcome to take the interpretation as gospel, but here in the 21st century we prefer to do out own analysis.

Every culture that's ever existed has had a belief that spirits manifest in the real world.

Are you sure this is what you want to use as your example? Cultures from the beginning of history?

I would certainly be happy to equate your belief in ghosts to that of cultures who worshipped sun gods and sacrificed humans to gain their power.

Or would you grant that ancient civilizations got some stuff wrong, and invoking their superstitions to support your case is highly counter-productive?

That's what you'd say. I can just picture you on a paranormal investigation arguing with all the investigators. "I heard voices in the empty room, but we just don't what it is." "I saw a ball of light down the hallway, be we just don't what it is." "I got an EMF spike in the cemetery, but we just don't know what it is." You'd be laughed out there in a minute.

Actually, they don't know either.

They do not have a mechanism by which lifeless corpses exist in some ethereal world at some unknown location, and communicate through an unknown means, for unknown reasons.
Again, magic and God are equally as valid as ghosts to explain what is actually happening, and there is as much differential evidence pointing to any of them. (i.e. there is no element of any of these stories that rules out God or magic, yet rules in ghosts).

 

[Magical Realist]

They do not have a mechanism by which lifeless corpses exist in some ethereal world at some unknown location, and communicate through an unknown means, for unknown reasons.
Again, magic and God are equally as valid as ghosts to explain what is actually happening, and there is as much differential evidence pointing to any of them. (i.e. there is no element of any of these stories that rules out God or magic, yet rules in ghosts).

They do not have a mechanism by which lifeless electrons exist in some ethereal world at some unknown location, and communicate through an unknown means, for unknown reasons.
Again, magic and God are equally as valid as quantum entanglement to explain what is actually happening, and there is as much differential evidence pointing to any of them. (i.e. there is no element of any of these experiments that rules out God or magic, yet rules in quantum entanglement).

 

[Daecon]

LOL! No I didn't. That's been happening a long time. As I said, before the birth of civilization. Every culture that's ever existed has had a belief that spirits manifest in the real world.

So does that mean God is real too? What about dragons? Or witches? Lots of cultures have dragons and witches, that must mean they're real too!

 

[DaveC426913]

They do not have a mechanism by which lifeless electrons exist in some ethereal world at some unknown location, and communicate through an unknown means, for unknown reasons.
Again, magic and God are equally as valid as quantum entanglement to explain what is actually happening, and there is as much differential evidence pointing to any of them. (i.e. there is no element of any of these experiments that rules out God or magic, yet rules in quantum entanglement).

You don't really believe this do you? Because, well, science.

 

[Magical Realist]

You don't really believe this do you? Because, well, science.

That's the inevitable conclusion of your logic. Because we don't understand how it happens, it must not be real.

 

[Magical Realist]

So does that mean God is real too? What about dragons? Or witches? Lots of cultures have dragons and witches, that must mean they're real too!

Do people see dragons and witches all the time? Are there photos and videos and audio of them? Where?

 

[DaveC426913]

That's the inevitable conclusion of you logic. Because we don't understand how it happens, it must not be real.

No.
1] We do have a working model of atomic and subatomic structures. It is called the Standard Model of Atomic Physics. We understand it quite well.
2] We do not have a model of ghosts.

 

[DaveC426913]

Do people see dragons and witches all the time? Are there photos and videos and audio of them? Where?

Right next to to all the pics of ghosts you have posted.

BOOM

 

[Magical Realist]

No.
1] We do have a working model of atomic and subatomic structures. is called the standard model of Atomic Physics. We understand it quite well.
2] We do not have a model of ghosts.

Explain how quantum entanglement happens then.

 

[Daecon]

You do know the difference between verifiable, repeatable, objective evidence and...

Oh wait, what am I talking about - of course you don't.

Or maybe you do, so that's why you so specifically deny that in favour of woowoo.

 

[Magical Realist]

Right next to to all the pics of ghosts you have posted.

BOOM

Where?

 

[Magical Realist]

You do know the difference between verifiable, repeatable, objective evidence and...

Oh wait, what am I talking about - of course you don't.

Or maybe you do, so that's why you so specifically deny that in favour of woowoo.

You do know the difference between field evidence and repeatable evidence don't you? Nobody's been able to reproduce lots of phenomena in nature, but it doesn't mean it isn't real.

 

[DaveC426913]

Explain how quantum entanglement happens then.

I'll happily repeat the experiments for you under lab-controlled conditions, along with the mathematical models that support it, so that you can take it to your own lab or a lab of your choice and repeat and verify it.

Right after you repeat some ghostly apparitions for me under lab-controlled conditions, along with the mathematical models that support it, so that I can take it to my own lab or a lab of my choice and repeat and verify it.

And that, MR, is the difference between science and woo.

 

[Magical Realist]

I'll happily repeat the experiments for you under lab-controlled conditions, along with the mathematical models that support it, so that you can take it to your own lab or a lab of your choice and repeat and verify it.

Right after you repeat some the Big Bang, consciousness, earthquake lights, and ball lightning for me under lab-controlled conditions, along with the mathematical models that support it, so that I can take it to my own lab or a lab of my choice and repeat and verify it.

And that, MR, is the difference between science and woo.

In other words, you have no explanation for how quantum entanglement works. Must not be real then eh?

 

[DaveC426913]

Where?

Precisely. All the pics of actual dragons are in the same bin as all the pics of actual ghosts.
We have yet to see them.

You do know the difference between field evidence and repeatable evidence don't you? Nobody's been able to reproduce lots of phenomena in nature, but it doesn't mean it isn't real.

It does mean that we look to plausible physics before creating new physics. Creating new explanations when existing ones work is not science.

 

[DaveC426913]

In other words, you have no explanation for how quantum entanglement works. Must not be real then eh?

This is your thread; the onus is on you to back up contentious claims.

But yes, we do know how entanglement works. There's quite a bit of research on it.

 

[Magical Realist]

Precisely. All the pics of actual dragons are in the same bin as all the pics of actual ghosts.
We have yet to see them.

So you lied. How typical...BOOM!

It does mean that we look to plausible physics before creating new physics. Creating new explanations when existing ones work is not science

No..we don't look to old physics to confirm new physics. We look at the phenomena itself that the old physics can't explain. Like Einstein and black body radiation.