Why should we want to know if there is a God? What good is the concept?

[spidergoat]

ANd I liked the snow flake thing, clever, but that is order arising from something, give me an example of something and order arising from nothing.

My example only illustrates how order could have arisen from a chaotic early universe, which can be shown to be consistent with arising from nothing. A modern example would be what are called quantum vacuum fluctuations. This means that there is no such thing as pure nothing, and this is due to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. Particle pairs can arise spontaneously from nothing.

Not only that but that isn't disorder, each snowflake is shaped randomly, by chance. But chance is math, math is order.

No it isn't. In fact there exists a mathematics of chaos.

In order for the big bang theory to be correct every law of physics and every mathematical application we've discovered was created from nothing.

Math is an artificial abstraction. But you are correct in that every law of physics arose spontaneously from nothing.

 

[lightgigantic]

Because he isn't. It might be a Christian, it might be an atheist, it might be no one that is helping the poor. But, the point is, God isn't doing anything. Most people do not give the time of day to the poor. God has had his chance to correct the world's problems. It's time that we step in and start doing instead of praying.

Regardless whether you think you are an atheist or a christian, the problem appears to be that you don't really know what god's mercy is.

That's why I am asking why you think the poor or whatever aren't being/are beyond help.

Do you think that having sufficient finances to meet one's base material desires is a sign of god's mercy?

 

[lightgigantic]

But, we're supposed to be on God's watch. At least we've not sat on our hands and saved at least one person. In that case it is mankind 1, God 0.

lol
saved a person from what?

still plenty of rich well fed people out there dissatisfied and suffering like hell ...

I don't agree that it's difficult to think of the ingenuity of mankind. Complacency is the enemy of ingenuity and forward thinking. We lack that as a whole today because too many are complacent and half are Christian. The problem is there's nothing to remove those particular Christians from complacency because they have faith. They are more concerned with building "treasure in heaven" rather than treasures on Earth. And I'm not talking about material possessions.

If you are not talking about material possessions, you wouldn't be talking about the poor .... and its not complacency that makes one realize that desire in a temporary medium is the platform of suffering, its common sense.
:shrug:

This doesn't make sense because I exist. If I exist, then it must be possible.

Then you are completely wrapped up in the relative and temporary and hence doomed (IOW you have no suitable means to entertain eternal values)

 

[Rav]

Only with a twisted view of the Bible can you draw those strange interpretations, but when reading from the original Hebrew and GReek Bibles, as I do, you will find that the words simply do not line up. Evolution? That doesn't make sense at all with the Bible. You go learn Hebrew and Greek, then google the orignal texts then try to have a happy marriage between the theory of evolution and the Bbile.

It's tricky, that's for sure. It requires you to consider the creation story in a way that you probably haven't before. To build a back story behind it and consider the fact that it was originally told at a time when people didn't know the first thing about science. In almost all such interpretations that I have seen presented, an examination of the language in which the story was originally written actually serves to make such an interpretation more feasible rather than the opposite.

In order for the big bang theory to be correct every law of physics and every mathematical application we've discovered was created from nothing.

Nonsense. How can you not have considered the possibility that God created the universe with a Big Bang?

Like I said before, you're being terribly counter-productive with respect to your own ultimate goal (which I assume is to bring more people to God?). And you know what's really funny here? I'm actually trying to help you (albeit just for fun mostly) and I'm not even a Christian. Some might say that I'm doing your work better than you are.

 

[jayleew]

lol
saved a person from what?

still plenty of rich well fed people out there dissatisfied and suffering like hell ...

We have not saved every case, but I can say that we have saved a rich, suffering person and a malnutritioned poor person. We can explore the exact numbers, but it is safe enough to say one person. Even that is more than what God has done.

Then you are completely wrapped up in the relative and temporary and hence doomed (IOW you have no suitable means to entertain eternal values)

Nothing lasts forever. If you are a pessimist, then I am doomed to be extinguished. In this case, that's a rather unproductive attitude. I take what time i've been given to use to better myself and others around me to make every moment count. Justice is more valuable to me than eternal life. You can go ahead and keep hoping and praying, and i'll keep helping and feeding. If there is a god and he's not okay with that, if love, justice, and altruism are not enough for his club, then he can take a flying leap. He's nowhere to be found while I'm busting my ass trying to help.

 

[lightgigantic]

We have not saved every case, but I can say that we have saved a rich, suffering person and a malnutritioned poor person. We can explore the exact numbers, but it is safe enough to say one person. Even that is more than what God has done.

once again, what is it exactly you are talking about being saved from?

Nothing lasts forever. If you are a pessimist, then I am doomed to be extinguished.

Thats only part of it - the path to being extinguished is lined with the frustration of desire all the way

In this case, that's a rather unproductive attitude. I take what time i've been given to use to better myself and others around me to make every moment count.

You are simply dressing your posts up in hyperbole (hyperbole that is remarkably similar to the platitudes that christians constantly toss about too I might add ...)

You talk of saving people but provide vague ideas on what constitutes being saved.
You talk of making every moment count and bettering yourself and others but are also similarly unclear how that is assessed.

Justice is more valuable to me than eternal life. You can go ahead and keep hoping and praying, and i'll keep helping and feeding.

Who's talking about eternal life?
I am talking about eternal values. Even if you want to play justice and altruism as eternal values you still line yourself up for the same defeat.

This isn't to say that such things are valueless, merely that they can't house constant values since the very thing they draw on is fallible human nature

If there is a god and he's not okay with that, if love, justice, and altruism are not enough for his club, then he can take a flying leap. He's nowhere to be found while I'm busting my ass trying to help.

Then all you will attain is a busted ass, mainly because your notion of bringing these things to bear on the material world is like swimming through the pacific ocean.

IOW while one can describe the pursuit of justice, altruism etc as noble (and even necessary for a degree of societal stability), its absurd to think that they are capable of delivering some sort of actual solution since the very problems that we call justice and altruism to bear on arise from a greater problem of the conditioned living entity attached to material desire in a temporary world.
:shrug:

 

[lightgigantic]

Ever see a snowflake? That is order arising spontaneously from disorder.

Evolution has been proven.

That statement is the pinnacle of idiocy

 

[spidergoat]

Which one?

 

[dbnp48]

That statement is the pinnacle of idiocy

Please cite a source for why "evolution is proven" is the pinnacle of idiocy.

 

[lightgigantic]

Which one?

the one about the snow flake

 

[lightgigantic]

Please cite a source for why "evolution is proven" is the pinnacle of idiocy.

it was more about the snow flake ... but that said, a great deal about what people commonly drive home in the name of evolution (such as movement of species from one kingdom to another) is unproven

probably not the thread to discuss this here though

 

[spidergoat]

the one about the snow flake

Why, exactly? It's a perfect example of a chaotic system (liquid water) turning into an orderly structure spontaneously.

 

[lightgigantic]

Why, exactly? It's a perfect example of a chaotic system (liquid water) turning into an orderly structure spontaneously.

liquid water is a far cry from chaos ... perhaps only bettered by the notion that transforming it into snow is spontaneous

 

[spidergoat]

Chaos Theory for Beginners

Chaos Theory is a mathematical sub-discipline that studies complex systems. Examples of these complex systems that Chaos Theory helped fathom are earth's weather system, the behavior of water boiling on a stove, migratory patterns of birds, or the spread of vegetation across a continent.

In any case, that wasn't the statement I'm disproving. This is:

...I find it odd that they are able to accept that order came from disorder, which cannot be observed in the natural world...

Liquid water is disorderly, a snowflake crystal is not, it has symmetry and persists.

 

[Rav]

I pity Atheists because in truth I find it odd that they are able to accept that order came from disorder

Actually, the reverse is true. The early universe had much lower entropy (more order) and it has been evolving towards a higher state of entropy (less order) ever since.

 

[wynn]

That statement is the pinnacle of idiocy

I would laugh louder, but I'm at the library right now ...

 

[jayleew]

once again, what is it exactly you are talking about being saved from?

Injustice which is evil, or sin as you might call it.

Thats only part of it - the path to being extinguished is lined with the frustration of desire all the way

When one is not on the path of enlightenment, I agree. It takes work and an open mind to achieve enlightenment and a lot of mistakes and desire to be better, but everyone can follow.

You are simply dressing your posts up in hyperbole (hyperbole that is remarkably similar to the platitudes that christians constantly toss about too I might add ...)

You talk of saving people but provide vague ideas on what constitutes being saved.
You talk of making every moment count and bettering yourself and others but are also similarly unclear how that is assessed.

There is so much, to be saved from, and I mean everything. Evil, sin, or injustice are words one could use. An example of one of thousands is the lack of poverty prevention from those who have the means to do it, but choose not to, if the action is unethical in the situation. That is the sin, but we have so many folks working on the complex issue from a variety of angles all the way from the employer to the preacher. It isn't enough, but there are those who see the light and at least one person in the present or the future is saved from poverty which is the result of the injustice.

Then all you will attain is a busted ass, mainly because your notion of bringing these things to bear on the material world is like swimming through the pacific ocean.

IOW while one can describe the pursuit of justice, altruism etc as noble (and even necessary for a degree of societal stability), its absurd to think that they are capable of delivering some sort of actual solution since the very problems that we call justice and altruism to bear on arise from a greater problem of the conditioned living entity attached to material desire in a temporary world.
:shrug:

Thus, the pursuit of enlightenment is necessary, but God does not directly provide this, it is the teachings in the scriptures that does. Philosophy is the path to enlightenment.

After we are enlightened, once we've assimilated the teachings, we do the work and God is invisible. So why bother with praying when the enlightened person is providing the solutions?

 

[lightgigantic]

Injustice which is evil, or sin as you might call it.

And if we are the recipients of such justice or sinning, what then?

(IOW application of justice is relative to an authority or authority structure)

When one is not on the path of enlightenment, I agree. It takes work and an open mind to achieve enlightenment and a lot of mistakes and desire to be better, but everyone can follow.

You are slipping into vagueness once more. Why use the word "enlightenment" when you are on a crusade of justice (albeit a crusade for the justice of the pursuit of material enjoyment in a temporary world) ?

There is so much, to be saved from, and I mean everything. Evil, sin, or injustice are words one could use. An example of one of thousands is the lack of poverty prevention from those who have the means to do it, but choose not to, if the action is unethical in the situation.

As mentioned earlier, this is just like swimming the pacific ocean since the problems we commonly bring altruism to, operate out of the much wider and greater problem of attachment to material desire (which gives rise to wrath, envy, covetousness, etc).

Such a pursuit has no scope for success

The real path of enlightenment involves dealing with these issues of being materially conditioned ... which require knowledge of god, one's relationship with him, one's relationship with this phenomenal world, etc.

IOW for as long as one thinks that this world is essentially a tool for one's enjoyment, there is no enlightenment, no justice and no happiness

That is the sin, but we have so many folks working on the complex issue from a variety of angles all the way from the employer to the preacher. It isn't enough, but there are those who see the light and at least one person in the present or the future is saved from poverty which is the result of the injustice.

As mentioned earlier, the real problem is not poverty but attachment to material desire and spiritual ignorance. Even if one is the president, if one can't escape the escape the provincial outlook provided by the bodily concept of life, one is no better than a bum on the street.

IOW you don't deal with the root of the problem because you are busy watering the leaves

Thus, the pursuit of enlightenment is necessary, but God does not directly provide this, it is the teachings in the scriptures that does. Philosophy is the path to enlightenment.

Actually your version of enlightenment does not provide it.
Attempting to keep a handful of persons out of poverty doesn't really solve anything since affluence doesn't solve the problem of conditioned nature (in fact conditioned nature does a fine job running parallel with it)

I mean seriously, how does affluence make one a better person?

IOW how does material facility make one a better individual?

After we are enlightened, once we've assimilated the teachings, we do the work and God is invisible. So why bother with praying when the enlightened person is providing the solutions?

Thats the problem.
You don't provide the solutions.

Take a handful or a hundred thousand people lout of poverty and they will still be dissatisfied, suffering and a cause of suffering for others.

It is ludicrous for you to think that you are enlightening anyone

In fact if you forever balk at the task of addressing your own conditioned nature, you are part of the problem.

 

[Jan Ardena]

jayleew,

Why should we want to know if there is a God?
What good is the concept?

Whether the concept is good or not, the answer is relevant only to the individual and his/her pursuit.

Surely theists have a good reason to believe?

What difference does it make to you?

Forget the proof of God for a moment and explain why should non-believers want to know God?

What makes you think theists "want you to know God"?

Everything I could ever want is either within me or around me, even if I have to move me to achieve what it is I hope or want for.

I don't believe you are as happy, or, as content as you make out, but as least you have some temporary, illusory satisfaction.

We have the power to change, and change others. We can achieve what God cannot because we are the hands, the mind, the body, and the feet of what God should be.

We are ultra-minute units of conscious energy who momentarily, and constantly, come into and out of (material) existence (like flickering fire fly's). The only real power we have is to affect our own and others conciousness.

Who feeds the hungry and tends to the sick? Who toils the land and defends the weak? Who loves? Who gives peace to the world? Everything is administered by the hand of man, so why should we want God when our faults can be administered to?

This world is temporary, and illusory. The soul cannot stay here, but due to illusory attachments we bind ourself to this plane of existence which is the cause of our suffering. God is interested in the soul, because that is reality.
So He is, ultimately Loving, and Benevolent, because He is looking out for our spiritual interests. All the things you talk about are good (if the right people are in control), but do not necessarily lead to spiritual realisation.

One who says it is impossible for man to achieve enlightenment without God is already doomed to fail to achieve enlightenment with or without God.

Who say's it is impossible to achieve enlightenment without God?
And what is enlightenment?

jan.

 

[jayleew]

And if we are the recipients of such justice or sinning, what then?

(IOW application of justice is relative to an authority or authority structure)


You are slipping into vagueness once more. Why use the word "enlightenment" when you are on a crusade of justice (albeit a crusade for the justice of the pursuit of material enjoyment in a temporary world) ?

If that is what you believe I'm thinking, then we are doing a piss-poor job of communicating.

I'm being vague so that we all can deduce the meaning which is bigger than what I can describe. Words like enlightenment and justice are not it, but are a big part of the things I'd like to see us all work towards. Material enjoyment is a part of enlightenment and justice, but not a very large one. Almost to a degree of non-existence. It is sin that I am a crusader against. Sin causes injustice. It is something the enlightened accept as a mistake and avoid and atone for.

As mentioned earlier, this is just like swimming the pacific ocean since the problems we commonly bring altruism to, operate out of the much wider and greater problem of attachment to material desire (which gives rise to wrath, envy, covetousness, etc).

Such a pursuit has no scope for success

Nothing is impossible. Where there is a will there is a way. Realistically, such a change will cost many lives. I just wish we all could wake up and start changing ourselves more so it wouldn't be so expensive. I know it can be done because I, like many others, am moving towards enlightenment. My measure of this is the quality of life which goes beyond the physical.

The real path of enlightenment involves dealing with these issues of being materially conditioned ... which require knowledge of god, one's relationship with him, one's relationship with this phenomenal world, etc.

IOW for as long as one thinks that this world is essentially a tool for one's enjoyment, there is no enlightenment, no justice and no happiness

I agree 100%, except for the theory that it requires god. I know it doesn't require it, because I've moved further up the path than I ever had as a Christian. This in itself is puzzling to me. If god is so real, then how can this be possible?

And I have examples in my life where those who do have the knowledge, fall back hard. So, what good is that?

Actually your version of enlightenment does not provide it.
Attempting to keep a handful of persons out of poverty doesn't really solve anything since affluence doesn't solve the problem of conditioned nature (in fact conditioned nature does a fine job running parallel with it)

Poverty is not the problem. The root cause is injustice or sin, and a poor man can be the one to blame, but isn't necessarily the one where blame truly lies.

Take a handful or a hundred thousand people lout of poverty and they will still be dissatisfied, suffering and a cause of suffering for others.

This isn't true for every case. Some, provided the chance and direction, come out of sin or away from it. It isn't god who provides the direction. It is a good man, with good philosophy (regardless of the source), that aids the poor and sick in every successful case.