So would it be correct to say that you view the whole theism/atheism exchange as more or less a dog fight, a struggle for survival?
Why should we want to know if there is a God? What good is the concept?
- Thread starter jayleew
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So would it be correct to say that you view the whole theism/atheism exchange as more or less a dog fight, a struggle for survival?
Why are you interested in knowing why others wonder about God?
It depends on what the knowledge is.
Well, simply by definition, He kind of makes sure that a universe is there, with time and space and all that, so that you have some place to be while you are attaining your enlightenment ...
Yazata
Valued Senior Member
Somebody could define 'God' in the more philosophical manner, as first cause, designer, ground of being, unchanging source of Platonic universals, ultimate goal, pure goodness, and so on. In that case, 'God' would be kind of a personalized anthropomorphism of whatever the unknown answers might be to many of humanity's largest and most fundamental questions. So part of your answer would be curiosity, I guess. People, many of them, have a deep, innate and probably instinctive desire to know.
I'm more cerebral and academic than most people and prefer to address these kind of questions with science and philosophy. But the motivation isn't all that dissimilar. If you're old enough, think back to the atheist Carl Sagan displaying beautiful photos of the glories of the cosmos on his TV series while solemnly intoning "billions and billions..." That was his sense of transcendent possibility.
Religious people feel similar things, but they tend to stick to the conceptual vocabulary of myth and tradition and they always seem to feel driven to personalize it. They don't just want to think about ultimate things conceptually, they want to feel them emotionally, they want to love and be loved by them, they want to embrace them and be embraced in turn. They want to return to the unquestioned love and security of a child in its parents' arms.
They want escape from all their doubts, worries and suffering. They want to escape the inevitability of death. They want salvation.
Interesting question. I don't have a complete answer yet, but it just seems like a waste of time to me, so I want to find out if there were any physical benefits. I suppose that isn't the point of it. But, it makes me upset when I come in contact with theists who tend to defer problems in this world to the authority of their god when they have a choice to do something about the problem themselves. Of course, atheists just as well sit on their hands.
It must be the fact that theists are on a pedestal because of what they stand for outwardly. It's like if your atheist then it is given that you may or may not be trying to live a just life. That's their choice. But, being a theist says they are making a choice to live a just life and to see them turn their eyes away from injustice to a being that may not exist is disturbing to me, especially when they are in the range of influence of the situation.
So, basically, you envy theists?
Yazata
Valued Senior Member
I don't think that I would have ever imagined the concept of 'God' all by myself, if it weren't for the influence of people around me talking about it with such passion, pro and con. My thinking doesn't work that way. I would have probably thought of many of the big philosophical questions independently, but I wouldn't have personalized them.
Even today, while I have a strong academic interest in religion and a deepening religiosity of my own, I don't feel even remotely theistic.
Do I want to know if there's a God? Maybe a little. But it doesn't really rank very highly among my desires. (A little below going out for a pizza, I guess.) I'm reasonably comfortable with my belief that a theistic God probably doesn't exist.
That's not to say that whatever the ultimate answer(s) is/are doesn't exist. What it is saying is that I don't think that any of our earthly religious traditions brings us much closer to answering those ultimate questions.
For that I prefer science and philosophy, though I fully accept that the answers won't be coming from that direction in my lifetime and might not be coming at all.
And that in turn leads me towards a different sort of psychologized religiosity that doesn't promise the ultimate answers that it's in no position to give, but instead devotes its attention to our suffering and dissatisfaction here and now.
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To be perfectly honest, I think that there is something wrong with anyone who doesn't ask such questions. How can you not, at least occasionally, ponder the great mysteries of the universe and existence? To me, such an exploration is inextricably linked to an appreciation of everything that is all around us. Typically people who don't ask why have been seduced by a bunch of illusions and/or are scared of the consequences of asking those types of questions.
Yes, it's a struggle for secularism over theocracy.
we're not on God's watch, that's a false concept. The truth of the matter is that those who do anything on earth it will eventually become meaningless. Literally. Without GOd the universe will eventually attain its desired state of zero energy expendeture and everything will slow down to absolute zero, and all will perish. No matter what earthly treasure you build up you're stuck in nothing but flat monotony. A good counter question to yours is why should we question that there is a God? Math, order, everything that we observe in this life that amounts to science, and philosophy, well it had to have been bred by something. The very thought that order came from disorder is obnoxious, can you name a single observable situation in history in which that has happened? No. The need for GOd is obvious, if there was no GOd who created you, then who was then what made you in such a way that you're asking this question. If we are nothing but animals then why are we here discussing philosophy?
How did you come to that conclusion? I pity theists.
Ahhh... you pity theists... You pity them for pondering the wonders of a God while you pity how the universe formed from nothing? I pity Atheists because in truth I find it odd that they are able to accept that order came from disorder, which cannot be observed in the natural world! ANd that they are so against the existence of something greater that they will embrace a the big bang THEORY and the evolutionary THEORY. Neither of which can ever be proved.
A single observable situation in history is life itself.
Everyone I met from birth made me this way. I am curious as to our origins, there is no perfect theory as no one was around to observe. Evolution and natural selection is the best running one because the sum of its parts makes sense as to where we came from, it doesn't make it so.
Somewhere along the line there became a distinction of animalistic tendencies to more refined higher-level thought. We are animals in the loosest sense, but we don't always behave as they do. That is why we discuss philosophy even though we are animals.
If there is no tomorrow, then we should live that way and not wait and hope for someone or something to show up and fix our problems or advance our progress. If we manage to build a perfect society and it gets crushed the following day, then at least we died with our boots on.
If by chance there was a god and it did not appreciate the progress of harmony and love we built, then I would only regret not having prepared to fight him when he came. We would die as martyrs in the name of justice in the face of a god that insists we love it first before seeking enlightenment. What is good and right is more important to me than any plan of a god.
I don't pity them for pondering, I pity them for wasting time and for being complacent all while singing and dancing.
I can't speak for everyone, but I am not against the existence of something greater. My complaint is why should I contemplate it more than it should be? If there's no hope for proof today, then I say spend the time more wisely spreading peace, joy, and love. Can a theist dish out some of that without getting god involved. Of course not, that would be against who they are.
Ever see a snowflake? That is order arising spontaneously from disorder.
Evolution has been proven.
You know, science and religion should be complimentary. Science tells us what is here and religion speculates about where it all may have ultimately come from and why. But some of you theists sabotage this potentially happy marriage just as much as anyone else.
No rational person who examines the wealth of scientific evidence in support of the theory of evolution can deny it's power in explaining what we see in nature. But science is like the atheists bible in the sense that if you want to understand what it says you have to take the time to study it, reflect upon it and wrestle it into focus. Instead you get people who read little more than a few pages, take verses (information) out of context and bring all sorts of blinding bias with them that obscures the truth. Ironically this is exactly what theists claim that atheists do.
The Theory of Evolution and the Big Bang Theory aren't necessarily at odds with what the Bible teaches. In fact there are many interpretations of the creation story that show that it is consistent with our current scientific knowledge. Google it. And you know what? It had better be consistent because you're going to have a hard time saving souls if your religion demands that people abandon science in order to be right with God. Seriously, do some strategizing.
Hahahahah I'm sorry but. the last three or four posts have been hilarious. Only with a twisted view of the Bible can you draw those strange interpretations, but when reading from the original Hebrew and GReek Bibles, as I do, you will find that the words simply do not line up. Evolution? That doesn't make sense at all with the Bible. You go learn Hebrew and Greek, then google the orignal texts then try to have a happy marriage between the theory of evolution and the Bbile. ANd I liked the snow flake thing, clever, but that is order arising from something, give me an example of something and order arising from nothing. Not only that but that isn't disorder, each snowflake is shaped randomly, by chance. But chance is math, math is order. In order for the big bang theory to be correct every law of physics and every mathematical application we've discovered was created from nothing. And to Jayleew you obviously don't grasp what I'm saying. Before there was the universe time itself did not exist. Everything you can name that you've expierienced has happened within the ultimate yard stick of order, time. Is the big bang a theorized event? Perhaps. But can you even give a good definition of an event. I can't. Not without time that is. So therefore how could the big bang have happened before time itself? Only if an event can be defined without time. So if you wish to prove to me the validity of your argument.... can you define an event without time?