Why Jews did not return to Palestine earlier
- Thread starter arauca
- Start date
Zionism began before WWII.
There were Jews in Palestine before Herzel was in his grandfather testicles
There was a movement in the 11 century
That is a real good one .
Should I believe roman Valpaisano surrounded Jerusalem ? should I believe
his son Titus burned down Jerusalem , Should I believe there is a Masada
Should I believe the rebellion of Jews year 135 AD Should I believe Ben Koshbar was the rebel leader, and the Jews liberated from Romans . Should I believe , Hadrian send 6 legions to subdues the rebellion, and after that Jews were not allowed to live in the area.
I can bring you some history prior Babylonian invasion because rebelion
False and frankly anti-semitic.
@spidergoat --
Oh really? So the jews who went there first had been living there for generations? Huh, I never knew that. And I suppose that you're also going to tell me that there wasn't massive support for Israel to be created there(instead of a relatively safe area that wasn't surrounded by well armed enemies) from christian and jewish groups based on biblical prophecy and some phony ass "covenant with god"? Damn, to think that I've gotten things so wrong?
The jews who settled there didn't have any actual history with the land, they'd never been there and their families hadn't been there. Meanwhile we had an already large population of people who had been living there for centuries and who were of a religion which was(at the time and still somewhat to this day) overtly hostile towards them.
And the fictitious history I was speaking of was the whole Moses, Kingdom of David, chosen people, covenant with god history that a very large portion of the world has swallowed hook, line, and sinker.
Tell me, how is this anti-semitic? How am I being racist here when race has nothing to do with anything I've typed so far?
Oh really? So the jews who went there first had been living there for generations? Huh, I never knew that. And I suppose that you're also going to tell me that there wasn't massive support for Israel to be created there(instead of a relatively safe area that wasn't surrounded by well armed enemies) from christian and jewish groups based on biblical prophecy and some phony ass "covenant with god"? Damn, to think that I've gotten things so wrong?
The jews who settled there didn't have any actual history with the land, they'd never been there and their families hadn't been there. Meanwhile we had an already large population of people who had been living there for centuries and who were of a religion which was(at the time and still somewhat to this day) overtly hostile towards them.
And the fictitious history I was speaking of was the whole Moses, Kingdom of David, chosen people, covenant with god history that a very large portion of the world has swallowed hook, line, and sinker.
Tell me, how is this anti-semitic? How am I being racist here when race has nothing to do with anything I've typed so far?
The Jews have had a long history in Palestine. There has been a Jewish presence for centuries, they even participated in public office in the Ottoman Empire. Even if Eastern European or Russian Jews hadn't actually visited there, they have always had a strong cultural connection to the place, often contributing to funds to build temples there and send Jews there. They have just as much a right to live there as any Arab.
@spidergoat --
I never said that they didn't have the right, they have just as much right to do stupid things as you or I do, but that doesn't make them any less stupid and it doesn't mean that their foundations are any less fictional.
For the record(since apparently I haven't been making myself clear enough), I wasn't even talking about the jews who were living there already, I was talking about the ones that settled there when Israel was founded. They were the ones without any history in the area.
And a "cultural connection" doesn't automatically give one the right to live some place, especially not when there's an already established population who'd been there for generations. I have a very strong "cultural" connection to Ireland, my entire family on my dad's side does(pure Irish until me), does that mean that my family has the right to annex bits of Ireland? If you're looking for justifications for founding Israel then you need look no further than the Holocaust, that's more than enough justification. Bullshit about "cultural connections" isn't going to fly.
I've never once, ever, thought that the Israelis don't have a right to live there, but I've always thought that it was a bonedead stupid choice.
I never said that they didn't have the right, they have just as much right to do stupid things as you or I do, but that doesn't make them any less stupid and it doesn't mean that their foundations are any less fictional.
For the record(since apparently I haven't been making myself clear enough), I wasn't even talking about the jews who were living there already, I was talking about the ones that settled there when Israel was founded. They were the ones without any history in the area.
And a "cultural connection" doesn't automatically give one the right to live some place, especially not when there's an already established population who'd been there for generations. I have a very strong "cultural" connection to Ireland, my entire family on my dad's side does(pure Irish until me), does that mean that my family has the right to annex bits of Ireland? If you're looking for justifications for founding Israel then you need look no further than the Holocaust, that's more than enough justification. Bullshit about "cultural connections" isn't going to fly.
I've never once, ever, thought that the Israelis don't have a right to live there, but I've always thought that it was a bonedead stupid choice.
You are calling the more or less continuous presence of Jews in Palestine a fantasy. It's the home of the Judaism for all Jews, you cannot deny that. Dig in the dirt there and you find Jewish artifacts. You might as well say African-Americans should just forget about having any connection to Africa. I know the mythology and don't believe most of it myself (I'm atheist), but it's still a shared mythology which has roots in a very real place.
@spidergoat --
Where did I say that? And please take the quote from my clarifications and not from my poorly worded post. Doing otherwise is nothing more than a straw man.
Never did, still doesn't change my opinion that it was a very stupid place to found Israel. A Crip deliberately moving into his childhood house even though it's surrounded on all sides by Bloods is stupid regardless of the connection. All this proves is that religion makes people do stupid things.
Yeah, and? Go to a museum in Ireland and you'll very likely find artifacts owned by my direct ancestors, should I try to move into the museum?
Who said anything about forgetting? I just said that it's a stupid reason to move into war torn area where you're surrounded by enemies who hate you with a religious zeal. I don't know about you, but I learned to avoid such confrontations whenever possible very early on, they have this nasty habit of giving people an incurable case of death.
Again, so what? It still wasn't a very good reason to found Israel there. Repeating it won't change that.
I'm not saying that the Israelis don't have a right to live there. I'm not saying that there weren't ever jews there in the past(though the settlers obviously had a long history elsewhere). I'm not saying anything of the sort, so how am I being anti-semitic?
Where did I say that? And please take the quote from my clarifications and not from my poorly worded post. Doing otherwise is nothing more than a straw man.
Never did, still doesn't change my opinion that it was a very stupid place to found Israel. A Crip deliberately moving into his childhood house even though it's surrounded on all sides by Bloods is stupid regardless of the connection. All this proves is that religion makes people do stupid things.
Yeah, and? Go to a museum in Ireland and you'll very likely find artifacts owned by my direct ancestors, should I try to move into the museum?
Who said anything about forgetting? I just said that it's a stupid reason to move into war torn area where you're surrounded by enemies who hate you with a religious zeal. I don't know about you, but I learned to avoid such confrontations whenever possible very early on, they have this nasty habit of giving people an incurable case of death.
Again, so what? It still wasn't a very good reason to found Israel there. Repeating it won't change that.
I'm not saying that the Israelis don't have a right to live there. I'm not saying that there weren't ever jews there in the past(though the settlers obviously had a long history elsewhere). I'm not saying anything of the sort, so how am I being anti-semitic?
Now you are walking back your initial position.
@spidergoat --
My position has remained constant this entire time. The latter posts were clarifications on points that had been misunderstood.
A cultural connection doesn't automatically give you ownership of property or land. Nor does it automatically make a decision to move to a place smart. How has my position on that changed one jot since the thread started?
My position has remained constant this entire time. The latter posts were clarifications on points that had been misunderstood.
A cultural connection doesn't automatically give you ownership of property or land. Nor does it automatically make a decision to move to a place smart. How has my position on that changed one jot since the thread started?
That's easy to say now, 20/20 hindsight man. What other place could have inspired Jews to live there?
@spidergoat --
I honestly don't know, but as I understand it the jews were looking for a place where they could gather and live without facing the sort of discrimination they had in Europe and Russia, a place where they would be safe. If that was indeed what they were ultimately looking for then they got ripped off big time.
I honestly don't know, but as I understand it the jews were looking for a place where they could gather and live without facing the sort of discrimination they had in Europe and Russia, a place where they would be safe. If that was indeed what they were ultimately looking for then they got ripped off big time.
How do you know they aren't the safest where they are now? They can cooperate for a common defense, which is known to be rather strong, as is their reputation for intelligence gathering.
@spidergoat --
I don't think that being surrounded on all sides by enemies with a rabid hatred of them and being under threat of terrorist attack every day fits the definition of "safe". Have they gone to remarkably lengths and accomplished astounding things(their intelligence agencies being the best in the world for one) to compensate for the constant danger? Of course, they're a resilient lot, but their accomplishments themselves are evidence that they're not safe.
I don't think that being surrounded on all sides by enemies with a rabid hatred of them and being under threat of terrorist attack every day fits the definition of "safe". Have they gone to remarkably lengths and accomplished astounding things(their intelligence agencies being the best in the world for one) to compensate for the constant danger? Of course, they're a resilient lot, but their accomplishments themselves are evidence that they're not safe.