why jesus jew and not christian?
- Thread starter robtex
- Start date
okinrus said:
All religions, including Christanity are about ones relationship with God(s). Christanity has the added bonus of relationship with Jesus as a holy enity of which Jesus seem to have no knowledge of or Christanity. Why is it that he had no knowledge of a religion that he was a God within?
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what768
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Medicine Woman said:
Remember that Christ (Jesus) said that he is the Life and Truth, and isn't Christianity about "Jesus"? How can you be so sure that "Christianity" is a "lie"? Isn't Christianity based on life, since God created all life?
Medicine Woman said:
I don't think Jenyar is dumber than anyone else here. We're all humans, remember. You say that you think I'm smarter than Jenyar, but a couple of days ago you said that your grand children are propably smarter than me...
"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
Matthew 4:19
A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.' "
"All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
That's why we follow Jesus - not as Christians, Jews or gentiles, but as people in need of salvation.
Trying to stack the odds?anonymous2 said:
It won't work, because time is irrelevant to the argument. We're not talking about something that can be satisfied by duration.Proverbs 30
"There are three things that are never satisfied,
four that never say, 'Enough!':
Sheol [the grave],
the barren womb,
land, which is never satisfied with water,
and fire, which never says, 'Enough!'
Note how all of these are connected: the promised land is satisfied, because God satisfies it. Likewise, a barren womb gave life to Isaac and the nation of Israel. God gives life. God appeared in a bush that would not burn out because He provides the fire and sustains the life (cf. also Daniel's three friends in the furnace). The grave, what satisfied the grave? Not our bodies, not even our justice - they just feed it. You know who was swallowed by it, and was spit out again at God's command, like Jonah."There are three things that are never satisfied,
four that never say, 'Enough!':
Sheol [the grave],
the barren womb,
land, which is never satisfied with water,
and fire, which never says, 'Enough!'
The way I choose to picture it is by imagining someone dear to me - someone I care for more than anything - not experiencing love or forgiveness, but only death. After all, that's how we are required to think about even our enemies. Without hope - any hope - even a minute is a lifetime. You're simply there, stuck in time. Things can still change with time - time itself presents a kind of hope, that one day something might be different. But time dissolves with death. Someone who died 4000 years ago is just as dead as someone who died yesterday. And someone who was born 2000 years ago was just as alive as someone born yesterday - except if the person born 2000 years ago is still alive. He is "more alive" because death has not touched him - time still has meaning for him. Infinite meaning. Not so with death.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, [Sheol] where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
The race is not to the swift
or the battle to the strong,
nor does food come to the wise
or wealth to the brilliant
or favor to the learned;
but time and chance happen to them all.
The race is not to the swift
or the battle to the strong,
nor does food come to the wise
or wealth to the brilliant
or favor to the learned;
but time and chance happen to them all.
It's final because only God perpetuates. Can't you understand that? Death terminates, sin destroys, justice separates, and fire devours forever - but what lives, what remains? These three: "faith, hope and love". You're continually taking God out of the equation, only to put Him back when you talk about hell. And we're not making in progress because of that. Giving everything - your whole life - to God is only "revolting" in your context.
John 15:15
I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.
God's property is his kingdom - that's what He has. What the devil and his angels have is hell, it was created for them. Nobody will go there who does not follow them there. The crucial thing is recognizing who you are following, and where it is leading you. Guilt is also a recognition: it means you are, or were, following "not-justice". And unless you confess your guilt you cannot receive grace (that's true in any court). Justice can eventually be found in only one place: in front of God. It is God's sole right to judge, justice being His requirement.I dont have a grand desire for eternal life. I just don't want eternal torment.
"Hope is the worst of the evils, for it prolongs the torment of man." -- Nietzsche.
We're being accused of choosing death over life. And isn't that what you're advocating? Whose justice are you applying, and whose are you resisting?
Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live
David, sorry to gvie the appearance that I am angry. I wasn't. I am kinda stotic on the keyboard. I will try to tone it down more. In reality this place is pretty neat cause to be here you have to be pretty religiously tolerant to hang here, which in the end is the most important thing. But sorry I you interpreted anger in the post. I promise there was none and no need for apolgies here....just hard core religious debate on this section 7 days a week.
I guess your paragraph where you say Jesus kept secrets is the Christian defintion of faith. You have a written statement and it may be ambigious but in the context of what you are reading you intrepret Jesus as the savior of mankind? Did I intrepret that correctly? I have been meaning to ask about the holy ghost and why the fella only gets a nickname but that is another thead
Jenyar:
on Luke 18:18 that you posted. I am reading the niv version on bible gateway.com
http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=luke+18&version=NIV
which is the same as yours and I am up to Luke 18:23 where is says:
"When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. 24Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
That suggests to me (and tell me if I missed cause I know you have read the Bible more thoughly than I ) that rightous action is the meathod to enter heavan, moral living. I find it perplexing that today I see the message presented that one may enter heaven dispite past wrongs (as we are all born of sin via adam and eve), if we accept Jesus as our savior.
It goes on to say:
Luke 18:26
26Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"
27Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."
28Peter said to him, "We have left all we had to follow you!"
29"I tell you the truth," Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."
Which furthers your point but I have an alternate theory:
Jesus was a rabbi teaching the moral and way of rightous living, not unlike priests today and he was, in his mind and spirt he was assured of his place in heaven though rightous living as a mortal,with love for humanity and spirtual living entering heaven as a mortal. If the followers of Jesus lived as he did, morally and rightously they too would enter heaven as surely as he would.
I say this because there is no alluding to Jesus have a God like status that I can find in the Bible or him being divine in nature.
I read follow me in the Bible as you do, and see a man, who believes in heaven and sees his life as an archtype for ascention into heaven so that any man who lives as Jesus does will get into heaven as surely as he does.
I guess your paragraph where you say Jesus kept secrets is the Christian defintion of faith. You have a written statement and it may be ambigious but in the context of what you are reading you intrepret Jesus as the savior of mankind? Did I intrepret that correctly? I have been meaning to ask about the holy ghost and why the fella only gets a nickname but that is another thead
Jenyar:
on Luke 18:18 that you posted. I am reading the niv version on bible gateway.com
http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=luke+18&version=NIV
which is the same as yours and I am up to Luke 18:23 where is says:
"When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. 24Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
That suggests to me (and tell me if I missed cause I know you have read the Bible more thoughly than I ) that rightous action is the meathod to enter heavan, moral living. I find it perplexing that today I see the message presented that one may enter heaven dispite past wrongs (as we are all born of sin via adam and eve), if we accept Jesus as our savior.
It goes on to say:
Luke 18:26
26Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"
27Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."
28Peter said to him, "We have left all we had to follow you!"
29"I tell you the truth," Jesus said to them, "no one who has left home or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."
Which furthers your point but I have an alternate theory:
Jesus was a rabbi teaching the moral and way of rightous living, not unlike priests today and he was, in his mind and spirt he was assured of his place in heaven though rightous living as a mortal,with love for humanity and spirtual living entering heaven as a mortal. If the followers of Jesus lived as he did, morally and rightously they too would enter heaven as surely as he would.
I say this because there is no alluding to Jesus have a God like status that I can find in the Bible or him being divine in nature.
I read follow me in the Bible as you do, and see a man, who believes in heaven and sees his life as an archtype for ascention into heaven so that any man who lives as Jesus does will get into heaven as surely as he does.
You don't read a divine nature into Jesus? If the son of a cow is a cow, and the son of a dog is a dog, and the son of a horse is a horse, and the son of a human is a human, then what is the son of a God? Of course Jesus is a God.
This goes further though. We think like Greeks rather than Jews. Our culture is all based upon Greek thought, ideas, laws (they were picked up by the Romans, who didn't seem to have many ideas of their own - they couldn't even come up with their own gods so they copied the Greeks and just changed their names). As a Greek, I think I am an individual - it is at the basis of all I think and do - but this is <i>not</i> what the Jews thought. Jewish faith shows us to be one flesh with our father's and with our son's. David called the tribe of Judah his bone and his flesh. Women, according to Jewish philosophy (affirmed by both Jesus and Paul), left their father's house and joined (physically) with their husband's house (to put it bluntly, the sexual act made a physical bond). Thus the Jews did not think of themselves as individuals but as part of the great tree of man. Jesus often said things like: I am the vine and you are the branches.
What then would it mean for Jesus to be the Son of God? It means Jesus is tied directly to God, that he is ONE WITH GOD. The son is a part of his father so Jesus is literally part of God. But, Jesus also had a human side. The human side died on the cross (it is not clear to me whether he got a new body which looked like the old body or if his human body was resurrected/converted - does anything from Mary remain?)
I don't mean, by this, to support or validate the false teaching of the Trinity - but that is another discussion.
Jesus is LORD, Jesus is GOD. He who has seen Jesus, has seen the Father. Jesus is the Creator. Jesus was in the beginning with the Father - they were together and they were one.
This puts us in two categories - sinners and God. I know which category I am in, but what category is Jesus in? If he is a sinner then he cannot die for my sins. He must be in the God category or my faith is in vain.
Once again, we are put into two categories, God and the unrighteous. Which is Jesus? If he is not God then he is unrighteous and he cannot be my savior. Again, Jesus must be God.
Jesus often allowed his disciples and countrymen to worship him. If he was not God then the disciples were violating the first and second commandment to worship him and he was violating the first commandment to allow it. If Jesus is not God, then he must be a sinner.
Then of course there is the big one: Before Abraham was, I AM. By saying this, Jesus was claiming to be the God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush. The Jews knew exactly what he was saying - blasphamy - and they tried to kill him for it. If you don't belive Jesus, then believe the Jews of his time who truely understood Jesus' words. Jesus, then performed one of his God tricks and vanished (either disappeared or caused the Jews not to be able to perceive him).
Yes, Jesus is God (there are just two in the Godhead, not three - the Holy Ghost is not an individual person, this is a translation error, or maybe not an error as much as a purposeful deception since the translators definitely wanted us to think of the Holy Ghost as a separate person - Holy Ghost is really <i>Pneuma Hagiou</i> or Holy Breath or Air that is Holy,. When Jesus breathed on them and said "Receive the Holy Ghost" he was talking about his holy breath, or perhaps his spirit, which was holy, not another personification. I think the Holy Spirit/Ghost is much the same as the seed a man plants in a woman - God plants his holy seed in us and just as the man's seed joins with the woman's egg, so the spirit/seed of God joins with the spirit of the man to form one spirit which grows and is "born of the spirit" when our natural body dies - here I go, waxing on about the nature of the Trinity which probably belongs in another thread, sorry).
This goes further though. We think like Greeks rather than Jews. Our culture is all based upon Greek thought, ideas, laws (they were picked up by the Romans, who didn't seem to have many ideas of their own - they couldn't even come up with their own gods so they copied the Greeks and just changed their names). As a Greek, I think I am an individual - it is at the basis of all I think and do - but this is <i>not</i> what the Jews thought. Jewish faith shows us to be one flesh with our father's and with our son's. David called the tribe of Judah his bone and his flesh. Women, according to Jewish philosophy (affirmed by both Jesus and Paul), left their father's house and joined (physically) with their husband's house (to put it bluntly, the sexual act made a physical bond). Thus the Jews did not think of themselves as individuals but as part of the great tree of man. Jesus often said things like: I am the vine and you are the branches.
What then would it mean for Jesus to be the Son of God? It means Jesus is tied directly to God, that he is ONE WITH GOD. The son is a part of his father so Jesus is literally part of God. But, Jesus also had a human side. The human side died on the cross (it is not clear to me whether he got a new body which looked like the old body or if his human body was resurrected/converted - does anything from Mary remain?)
I don't mean, by this, to support or validate the false teaching of the Trinity - but that is another discussion.
Jesus is LORD, Jesus is GOD. He who has seen Jesus, has seen the Father. Jesus is the Creator. Jesus was in the beginning with the Father - they were together and they were one.
for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God
This puts us in two categories - sinners and God. I know which category I am in, but what category is Jesus in? If he is a sinner then he cannot die for my sins. He must be in the God category or my faith is in vain.
There is none righteous, no not one; there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Once again, we are put into two categories, God and the unrighteous. Which is Jesus? If he is not God then he is unrighteous and he cannot be my savior. Again, Jesus must be God.
Jesus often allowed his disciples and countrymen to worship him. If he was not God then the disciples were violating the first and second commandment to worship him and he was violating the first commandment to allow it. If Jesus is not God, then he must be a sinner.
Then of course there is the big one: Before Abraham was, I AM. By saying this, Jesus was claiming to be the God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush. The Jews knew exactly what he was saying - blasphamy - and they tried to kill him for it. If you don't belive Jesus, then believe the Jews of his time who truely understood Jesus' words. Jesus, then performed one of his God tricks and vanished (either disappeared or caused the Jews not to be able to perceive him).
Yes, Jesus is God (there are just two in the Godhead, not three - the Holy Ghost is not an individual person, this is a translation error, or maybe not an error as much as a purposeful deception since the translators definitely wanted us to think of the Holy Ghost as a separate person - Holy Ghost is really <i>Pneuma Hagiou</i> or Holy Breath or Air that is Holy,. When Jesus breathed on them and said "Receive the Holy Ghost" he was talking about his holy breath, or perhaps his spirit, which was holy, not another personification. I think the Holy Spirit/Ghost is much the same as the seed a man plants in a woman - God plants his holy seed in us and just as the man's seed joins with the woman's egg, so the spirit/seed of God joins with the spirit of the man to form one spirit which grows and is "born of the spirit" when our natural body dies - here I go, waxing on about the nature of the Trinity which probably belongs in another thread, sorry).
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David F. said:
Ok this is good. This is the big differnce in our perceptions. You see Jesus as the son of God I see him as the son of a man and a woman on earth. I reject the notion of the virgin birth. But it brings this thread to a head doesn' t it? We know that up until Jesus birth and long after that a virgin birth has never happened but if we were inclined to devine intervention it is a possiblty.
How to we make your possiblity into a probablity? I ask you in repsonse to this post:
If god knew Jesus would someday have to save the world (as omnipotent God will) why did he go with Adam and eve first?
If Jesus is to return to save us why was he born on earth ? Kinda redundant to make him do this twice right?
I have a counter theory as to why I reject original sin. I believe, based on observation of thousands of people in my lifetime that man is basically good. There are man (and woman) that are ill of heart but they make up a small percentage. Everyone does things that are hurtful of others or destructive to others with their reward being self-gratification but less than they do good gracious things. I can't see us needing to be saved by God.
I can't seen an omnipotent God needing help of another. I reject Jesus as a savior (but not as an amazing person who has given so much love in print that we have read it and applied some of it for thousands of years after his death), because
1) I believe man is more good than bad
2) God doesn't need help to fix man (ie Jesus)
robtex said:
There is no probability that Jesus was born of a virgin. It is totally impossible. If a woman were ever to have a child without a man's seed (it happens in rabbits but as far as we know, never in humans) the offspring MUST be female. There is no possibility of a virgin-birth with a male offspring. However, Jesus CANNOT be the savior without the inclusion of virgin birth (original sin is passed through the father's - as we have already discussed on another thread). God/Jesus made the man (Adam) to be His companion in just the same way He made the woman to be man's companion. God made man in His image - but be careful here, we are not each in God's image, we are all, together, in God's image, All of Man put together is the image of God - we, all together, make a fitting bride for Jesus, a mate, a helper for Him. Why did God make man? He made man to be His mate, to be with Him, to be His companion. However, man is a stubborn, sinful child, who needs to be taught with infinite loving care - and sometimes with correction. There is no probability that Jesus was born via virgin birth, it is impossible - but God specializes in the impossible.
Omnipotent God does not need Jesus' help to save man. Jesus IS omnipotent God/God is Jesus. They are part of one whole. Jesus comes to earth at least three times, and each one with a different role. Jesus first coming, from birth to death/resurrection, was as a suitor woeing his bride. Jesus came the second time as a vengeful conqueror to slay his wayward adulterous wife (the nation of Israel - 70AD). Jesus will come yet again at the end as a Judge to judge the whole Earth. I do not pretend to say this was all the times Jesus came. Jesus is the Angel of God in the OT. Jesus came as the father/creator to Adam, as a friend to Abraham and as a Lawgiver to Moses. Jesus is the whole of human history. Jesus is everywhere in the OT and in the NT. It is better and easier to just say JESUS IS.
You reject Jesus as God but you accept that man is more good than bad (this is the essense of Communism by the way). Christianity says that Jesus IS God and that man is wholely bad. (Captialism is based upon the assumption that man is basically selfish and greedy and that he will do what is best for himself and not what is best for the community - which must be correct since Capitalism trumps Communism/Socialism every time).
I can't help you here. You have made a life choice and you must live with it. Be well my friend.
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*************
M*W: Excellent post, robtex!
M*W: Excellent post, robtex!
anonymous2
Registered Senior Member
Jenyar said:
Although this is a variant of the "eternal hell" theory, thinking that the "worst place imaginable" is a place without faith, love, hope, forgiveness, etc-I'm sorry, I don't find that "the worst place imaginable". You may be of the belief that "mental torment" is much worse than physical, but I don't buy that. And, I don't see the Bible necessarily teaching what you, as yourself have stated, "choose to picture it". You may choose to think it's mental torment, but, has this been the historic doctrine of Christianity? Just mental torment? Or physical torment beyond imagination? I won't blame you though, if I still "believed", I'd want to believe the least gruesome depiction of hell. You can say that there will be no "time" in the future, but when you say something will never cease (eternal hell/lake of fire), then I can say, that it's more than umpteen gazillion years, even if there are no actual years. You seem to be thinking hell/heaven are "infinite" in meaning, but not duration.
Jenyar said:
As I said, the Christian concept is disempowering to those who don't believe your God. To them, it's like if a mere man told you to give up what you have and be his slave. You yourself would find it disempowering if someone who you thought was NOT God or authorized by God told you to give up what you have and be his slave, wouldn't you? So that's how they see it. Of course, as a Christian, you see it as a tremendous exchange, what's human life compared to eternity? "Sure, I'll be God's slave, it's hardly even a sacrifice, since look at what I'll be getting in heaven!" But if there is no heaven, then it's a delusion and is, in a sense, death, giving up your will and your life, your actual life, the one we all know exists, the one nobody needs faith to verify its existence. I also have to question why a loving God would require someone to give up their life to him.
By the way, you can quote that Jesus passage, but Paul claimed he was a servant of God. Look at what Paul said, you have been bought with a price, you are not your own. Christians are God's slaves, as Muslims are God's slaves. Read other parts of the Bible. I don't think what Jesus said (kind of like, isn't that nice? we're his friends now, not his servants) nullifies the other parts which portray Christians as God's slaves.
Jenyar said:
I don't worship Nietzsche.
Who said I was against hope per se? Hope could be a dangerous delusion though. Personally, I don't want to live forever. I think everyone who thought about it rationally, and wasn't already a Christian/believer in the Bible, would not find it reasonable to think "God's justice" is "I gotta torture you for eternity because you did bad things in your life, despite any and all good you may have done, because, even though I'm omnipotent and omniscient, I made you with an eternal soul which I can't destroy." THAT is "God's justice?" Help us all if it is. I might as well say "God's justice" is that if you aren't totally perfect you deserve eternal torment. After all, that is essentially Christianity, isn't it?If you can, picture yourself not as a Bible believer. I don't know your personal history, so I'm not sure there ever was such a time you weren't a Bible believer, except when you were a baby. Now, given such a mental state, would you ever think you deserved eternal torture? Sure, you could feel guilty, you could admit you did wrong things, you could even pray to God to forgive you, and you could even think that God will punish you for the wrong things you did. But did you ever think it would extend to eternity? It takes a Christian revelation to believe that one.
In my opinion, nobody in their right mind would have ever thought people deserved unending torture unless taught so.
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anonymous2
Registered Senior Member
David F. said:
Interesting view in my opinion, David.
It seems most who believe the Bible believe in either the Trinity or believe that only God the Father is "God" (such as Jehovah's Witnesses who could call Jesus god (little g), but don't think he's God himself (but rather the first created being, who is as close to God as one can get). Your view seems "binitarian". What do you think of, what I consider the best verse or one of the best for the "Deity of the Holy Spirit" (besides the disputed 1 John 5:7 passage), Acts 5 which equates lying to the Holy Spirit as lying to God? Trinitarians could say you can't literally lie to "holy breath".
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anonymous2
Registered Senior Member
okinrus said:
Has this been the "historic doctrine" of Christianity, that one can only not believe in Jesus if he has been CONVINCED that it's true? I think this is somewhat of a word game. If you don't believe in something, you don't believe in something, whether you believe it's false, or if you've never heard of it. Either way, you don't believe.
okinrus said:
As if this is a better view? This is even worse, isn't this saying that we're all born in eternal punishment (ain't that uplifting?), and we can only get out of it by being "forgiven by God", which in Christianity means "believing in Jesus"?
Who would have ever believed that we're born in eternal punishment without a revelation? What a guilt trip.
But yes, I know, "Paul" says the natural man thinks the things of the spirit of God are foolishness. Isn't that convenient? Such an argument could be used to justify anything.
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You have to read Romans. Look at what the rich man said in v21: "All these I have kept since I was a boy". If the rich man felt that he was perfectly righteous, why did he still ask Jesus how to inherit eternal life? It's the same question that plagues Muslims: they have a law that gives them the requirements for righteousness, but ask any one of them if they are sure they will inherit eternal life? There answer will be: "only if Allah wills it". The law is a human compensation for doubt - if you don't know whether you're guilty, check the law. But Jesus made clear that it wasn't only difficult for rich men:robtex said:
Matt.5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus didn't tell the man just to follow his way (i.e. "do what I do"), but to follow him personally. Remember, that was the point where the rich man had to turn around. He simply felt he had to much to lose. The passage is a good example of the difference between Jesus and tradition wise men or rabbi's. His certainty lay in his Father, not in himself. His Father's laws declared that every man had inherited sin, but Jesus was undoubtedly aware of his special purpose. He ends his sermon on the Mount with another hard teaching: "48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.", and once again we're left asking, "Who then can be saved?".
You're halfway there. Of course we must follow Jesus, but you rob yourself of the only reason why anybody would "take up his own cross", let go of everything he has - including his life - and take that step.
"Archetypes of ascention" can't conquer death. They don't have what it takes to enter heaven guiltless and confident before God.
David F gave a good answer, you should take note of what he said. I want to address your statement as well:
Man is more good than bad, but it's not the degree that's the problem: it's that he is also bad. To make it clear I'll use am exaggeration: a man who is a saint all his life, one day kills a man out of anger. Does his good life absolve him of the crime, or does he still go to jail?
Jesus did not help God fix man - He was the means by which God restored the relationship between himself and man. It is that relationship that helps man be who he was created to be: the image of God. There was nothing wrong with how God created us - what went wrong was that our sustaining relationship with Him was broken, and death set in. Sin came in the way and stole our lives from us, as it still does.
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It could not be anything but eternal. That's the thing with something being final. If it isn't eternal, it isn't final either. We're talking about what the Bible calls the "last things", aren't we?anonymous2 said:
As for physical torment, it seems you weren't listening when I told you that Jesus used images of hell that were readily understood - images from Roman, Hebrew and Babylonian mythology. It is the body that dies, and therefore the body that experiences death. But after death, after the body has decayed, what is left to experience "pain"? David expects two possibilities after death: to be abandoned to the grave and see decay, or not see decay. In Psalm 49 he states:
"7 No man can redeem the life of another
or give to God a ransom for him -
8 the ransom for a life is costly,
no payment is ever enough -
9 that he should live on forever
and not see decay.
...
13 This is the fate of those who trust in themselves,
and of their followers, who approve their sayings.
14 Like sheep they are destined for the grave, [Sheol]
and death will feed on them.
The upright will rule over them in the morning;
their forms will decay in the grave, [Sheol]
far from their princely mansions.
15 But God will redeem my life [soul] from the grave;
he will surely take me to himself.
Not to mention Pual's speech in 1 Cor. 15 about the nature of the resurrection body: "I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.". The catterpillar dies before it becomes a butterfly. The body becomes spiritual, and the pain you are talking about is the torment of spiritual death. Those who don't receive life will continue serving out the punishment of Adam: death. Only after final judgment will that punishment be eternal, until then there is still chance for escape. We are trapped in a burning ship at sea, from which we are called to come out of, or drown, because: or give to God a ransom for him -
8 the ransom for a life is costly,
no payment is ever enough -
9 that he should live on forever
and not see decay.
...
13 This is the fate of those who trust in themselves,
and of their followers, who approve their sayings.
14 Like sheep they are destined for the grave, [Sheol]
and death will feed on them.
The upright will rule over them in the morning;
their forms will decay in the grave, [Sheol]
far from their princely mansions.
15 But God will redeem my life [soul] from the grave;
he will surely take me to himself.
in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.
You have no idea what this 'slavery' entails, do you? "They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity--for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him." (2 Peter 2). Slavery to God means this:
Romans 6:18-
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.
It means you have to do what's right and honourable, because God owns you. We are dead to sin and alive to God, and "should no longer be slaves to sin--because anyone who has died has been freed from sin." "For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace." Do you see it? The law condemns you to death for your sin, but once you have given your life there is no more to give. It's supposed to be disempowering - it takes away misplaced pride in your own authority, in your own freedom, because it is that self-proclaimed authority that makes a person remain enslaved by death.You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.
You don't read the Bible, which is why you have problems with things you don't understand.
It doesn't nulify it. See above. It is only because we were slaves that we can be called friends. A friend is one who continues to do freely what a slave did by being compelled.
God's justice - just like any kind of justice, mind you - demands that every sin be purged. "The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil." (Matt. 13:41). We all have a part in sin. Nobody is "all good", nevermind "perfect". Mind you, perfection is not our goal, righteousness is. It is because righteousness only comes by seeking perfection, and perfection is only available with God, that we need God - that we need to seek Him. There is no justice but God's - you can't get past that. But there is also no other judge that can take our place.I don't worship Nietzsche.
God does not want you to be tortured for eternity. That punishment was reserved for the devil, just like the pool of fire feeds on death. We were not supposed to go there. It is only by being tempted away from God's sustaining life that we will end up there - or by stubbornly persisting in the sins that lead us there.
You don't want to hear this, but I'm going to keep saying it until you stop thinking it: it is not you weakness that makes you inherit or "deserve" death, it is taking pride in them and exploiting them that makes you a threat to yourself. God does not threaten you with punishment, and he is not to be feared just because of his strict justice. To focus on that is to miss the point entirely.
When you reject God's grace, "hell" ceases to be a punishment - it becomes a consequence.
No, it takes a revelation to believe that death is not all there is. That death, suffering and destruction is not the eternal fate of man. By the way, almost everything we know about hell comes from outside Christianity. It simply embodies the worst humans can imagine. For those who knew God and life, nothing could be worse than having to die and be separated from His presence.If you can, picture yourself not as a Bible believer. I don't know your personal history, so I'm not sure there ever was such a time you weren't a Bible believer, except when you were a baby. Now, given such a mental state, would you ever think you deserved eternal torture? Sure, you could feel guilty, you could admit you did wrong things, you could even pray to God to forgive you, and you could even think that God will punish you for the wrong things you did. But did you ever think it would extend to eternity? It takes a Christian revelation to believe that one.
The picture you have is of the Roman underworld and Hades, informed by the examples Jesus took out of the world itself. Even your understanding of torture is an image lent to you by centuries of humans torturing each other. Hell is all around you - to the point that death seems to many a blissful escape. Would you imagine that humanity deserve that? Did Americans soldiers deserve Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq? Would you have me believe that seeking a peaceful world deserves the sacrifice of innocent people? And you can't tell me that turning the other cheek will deter terrorists either. Evil is not plagued by morality, and terror does not rely on resistance to be lethal. The only thing that puts an end to anything is death.
It does not take a rocket scientist to put the clues together: 1) Death is separate from the life God gave us; 2) Sin separates us from God; 3) To die without God is the worst that can happen to any man, because no further life is possible without God, and all that is good and desireable must be lost forever. How, then, to stay within God's presence?
Now it's your turn: imagine all that is, come to nothing. The universe without life, all existence wiped out and dead. Eternally dead, never to sprout again, not even hope that it would sprout again. Is that the ideal you want to strive towards? If it isn't, then what is? Eternal life? With wars, immorality and terrorism forever? Choosing life means engaging with life, and that engagement is what. Guilt is only available with enforced ideals, and punishment goes with enforcement. Perfection is unforgiving, and all fall short of the glory of God - the glory of life itself. But God isn't unforgiving, and He has established a means to make us perfect.
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anonymous2 said:Interesting view in my opinion, David.
I am a monotheist:
John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not... He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power (permission) to become the sons of God, to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 10 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me... I and the Father are one... that you may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
John 10 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me... I and the Father are one... that you may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
The Holy Ghost/Spirit/Breath comes from God, which makes it divine, but that doesn't make it a separate God or a separate part of the Godhead. God's gives to his people of his spirit. I can't give my spirit to you, but appearently, God can give a part of his spirit to each of us - maybe that's what makes Him God. He is, after all, omnipresent.
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Let me see if I, with my limited understanding, can give an example (don't take this too literally).
Women are all women - they have two female chromosones (XX). Men are half male and half female since they have one male chromosone (Y) and one female chromosone (X) so they are (XY). Think of Jesus as being all male so he might have two male chromosones (YY) - don't get too literal on me.
A woman marries a man and (acording to both the OT and the NT) they become one body or one flesh. That union then joins with Christ and they become one flesh (in a spiritual sense) or one spirit. Now (don't get too mad at me here), realize that monogomy is a Greek idea - not Christian or Jewish (don't call me a bigamist because I am not promoting polygamy - Christians must obey the law of the land - I am just trying to paint the picture as it is given in the bible). So the picture is many women with one man and they all become one flesh. Then each of those men (with his many wives) joins with Christ and become one spirit - again many with one. The union of woman with man is via marriage and the union of man with Christ is via marriage. However, the union of Christ with God is Father-Son.
So Paul is telling us that, in the end, we get to join (by marriage) as one with God. I don't think that makes us God or part of the Godhead, but it does make us one with God just as Jesus prayed we would be. (The Jesus-God relationship is far closer than the Man-Jesus relationship). This is how we are saved. Man cannot be part good and part bad. In God's eyes, man is either perfect and without sin, or man is sinful and headed toward death. But, if man (and women) join with a perfect Jesus and become one with him, Jesus cannot be both good and bad, therefore, man is made good by this joining with Jesus. Jesus offers us this opportunity to become good or clean (we can make the choice) and if we take the opportunity, we can be made clean - without any further sacrifice. If we reject this offer, we have no one to blame but ourselves - God made us an offer we couldn't refuse.
Women are all women - they have two female chromosones (XX). Men are half male and half female since they have one male chromosone (Y) and one female chromosone (X) so they are (XY). Think of Jesus as being all male so he might have two male chromosones (YY) - don't get too literal on me.
A woman marries a man and (acording to both the OT and the NT) they become one body or one flesh. That union then joins with Christ and they become one flesh (in a spiritual sense) or one spirit. Now (don't get too mad at me here), realize that monogomy is a Greek idea - not Christian or Jewish (don't call me a bigamist because I am not promoting polygamy - Christians must obey the law of the land - I am just trying to paint the picture as it is given in the bible). So the picture is many women with one man and they all become one flesh. Then each of those men (with his many wives) joins with Christ and become one spirit - again many with one. The union of woman with man is via marriage and the union of man with Christ is via marriage. However, the union of Christ with God is Father-Son.
<B><I>1 Cor 11:3</I></B> But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
So Paul is telling us that, in the end, we get to join (by marriage) as one with God. I don't think that makes us God or part of the Godhead, but it does make us one with God just as Jesus prayed we would be. (The Jesus-God relationship is far closer than the Man-Jesus relationship). This is how we are saved. Man cannot be part good and part bad. In God's eyes, man is either perfect and without sin, or man is sinful and headed toward death. But, if man (and women) join with a perfect Jesus and become one with him, Jesus cannot be both good and bad, therefore, man is made good by this joining with Jesus. Jesus offers us this opportunity to become good or clean (we can make the choice) and if we take the opportunity, we can be made clean - without any further sacrifice. If we reject this offer, we have no one to blame but ourselves - God made us an offer we couldn't refuse.
anonymous2
Registered Senior Member
Jenyar said:
This is at least the 2nd time you've implied that I'm "uneducated". You don't know me. I'm words on your screen, as you are basically to me. What are you, some towering intellect? What do you know of my history aside from what I told you, that I used to "believe" and why I don't believe? Do you think I've never read the Bible? One can read it, but yet not agree with it. As for you, you haven't chosen to divulge to me any of your personal history. As for the first time you implied I was uneducated, I countered by stating that even "Peter" said "Paul" was "difficult to understand". Although I'll correct that, he said "some" of the things in his letters were difficult to understand. If "Peter" himself admits this, why should you be surprised that one would find some of what "Paul" said "difficult to understand?" Instead of implying that I'm "uneducated", why not deal with the actual argument itself? Funny thing that you supposedly understand it, but ask your fellow Christians if you and they totally agree on what it says. Get 100 "Bible believers" together and see if there is uniform agreement about everything in the Bible. Or would you imply that your fellow Bible believers are uneducated merely because they disagree with you?
Read Luke 17:7, or does this suddenly become null and void because Jesus supposedly said no longer are you servants but friends? When you have done ALL you have been commanded, say, "We are unprofitable servants; we have done what we were obliged to do." Ain't that nifty?
Yes, I know the argument is "slave to God" instead of "slave to sin". In fact, I thought that about before. Not a bad argument, but you're still God's slaves, whether you want to look at it as profitable or unprofitable. I look at it as unprofitable.
Jenyar said:
You're still forced to do what God wants, aren't you? What happens if you don't do what God wants, if you don't follow God? Would you consider a person a "Christian" who doesn't follow what God wants? This "saved by grace through faith only" idea is a word game to me, because people who call themselves Christians but yet don't follow God, do "real" Christians consider those people to actually be Christians? I'm guessing you'd say no. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21, KJV) Oh? So you gotta DO not just "believe", right? So you're essentially still forced to do what what God wants; God still has that gun to your head. You're still his slaves, although in your view, you're a slave to God (which is good), and not a slave to "sin" (which is bad). I see it another way. I'd rather not be a slave to any god, nor a slave to "sin", but I'd rather do what I personally think is right, according to my own viewpoint.
Jenyar said:
Every sin be "purged?" First off, a secular justice system doesn't refer to "sin" as a metaphysical existent, as if it's some "substance" that must be destroyed. What secular court cares if you violate an alleged law of [any] god? Secular courts concern themselves with actual physical life, and secular laws. And none of them say "for the least crime, we're gonna barbeque you for the rest of your life."
Also, you seem to be thinking that there won't be literal, physical pain in hell because people going to hell won't have resurrected bodies? What do you then do about Daniel 12:2 which, at least in Christian translation, appears to say that "some" people will awake from the dust of the earth, to everlasting contempt. That would seem to imply that those going to the "lake of fire" will have bodies. And there are these two verses:
Jnn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (KJV)
Resurrection of damnation. Not a disembodied soul which can't literally be tortured, at least by what's implied in this passage.
Also there are these two verses in Acts, in which Paul is presented as saying:
Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. (KJV)
Jenyar said:
Convenient hypothesis, again, it boils down to "You did something bad in your life, you weren't perfect, I have to torture you for eternity because, even though I'm loving, omnipotent and omniscient, and knew you'd be imperfect, and knew you couldn't avoid it, I created you with an eternal soul. Mind you, I knew you'd do wrong, but I still created you with an eternal soul. And in the case of those who don't believe in Jesus, I knew you'd also not believe in Jesus. So, to sum up, I'm loving, omnipotent, omniscient, and knew you'd be imperfect, I created you with an eternal soul, knew you'd not believe in Jesus, so I have to torture you for eternity." Oh that makes a load of sense.
Or am I now ignorant cause I don't think it makes sense?Jenyar said:
Then why did Jesus say fear not those who kill the body, but fear him that can destroy the body and soul in Gehenna. I say, FEAR HIM! Sounds like an almost abject fear to me.
Jenyar said:
Death happens to animals, plants also. What "sin" did they do to deserve that? Interesting how Adam and Eve doing something wrong made animals die. Doesn't sound very just to me. No, I don't see a necessary connection to "sin" and "death". The most obvious being that idol worshippers don't necessarily die before non-idol worshippers. And idol worshipping is supposedly one of the worst sins, isn't it? Biblical "sin" and "death" only have a partial connection. If one goes around like a hedonistic madman and tries to have "unprotected" sex with every woman he sees, chances are it could be unhealthy for him and he COULD die prematurely, and there's also what he could spread to those women. I'll grant you that. I'm not at all implying that there's nothing wise in the Bible.
The most obvious thing is what we all see, people die, never to rise again. The common experience of basically every person (besides those for some reason were lucky enough to be exposed to alleged "miracles") is that we all die and we stay dead.
Jenyar said:
What do I think is the ideal situation? Personally? "Eternal life" does not sound good to me. Who would want to never be able to die? You could say "Oh but it'll be so great in heaven, etc". Sorry, I don't find worshipping and praising God for eternity to be great.
Just what will everyone be doing for this "eternity"? Twiddling their thumbs? Worshipping/praising God? Doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me. I think for those who WANT eternal life, they should be able to get it, but if they get bored of it, God should put them in a long sleep (or whatever the equivalent might be) until they wake up and are have renewed vigor for life, and with the future option of being destroyed if they eventually are sure they don't want to live anymore. Those who don't want eternal life, at all, and as a final decision, God should respect that and destroy them. "Poof it's gone". Kind of like how parts of the universe were supposedly created according to Genesis 1. As for the Hitlers and Stalins, well, I think God should figuratively "kick their asses". I'm not sure they should even have a choice for "eternal life." Of course, Christianity says, the most evil, wicked human ever to exist could repent on his deathbed and get heaven, while the most moral, kind non-Christian will get hell. This is "just"? Am I saying he shouldn't "kick my ass"? Nope, but I think it should be waaaaay less than what he should do to Hitler and Stalin. It's not so much that I have a problem with God "destroying" people. It's, once again, HELL that I have a problem with. What's more bleak? The universe fading into its elementary particles and no life ever again? Or to be FORCED to live forever, either worshipping/praising God, or being tormented in hell? I find the universe fading into its elementary particles and life ceasing to exist to be better than FORCED eternity.
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You're creating a false dichotomy. There isn't only "those who understand" and "those who do not". I didn't say you were uneducated, nor do I think it. I have no doubt that many things can be learned from one thing, and that's why we usually listen to 100 interpretations before we come to a preliminary conclusion. But that's not the case with the things you contest. Allow me to rephrase:anonymous2 said:
Hebrews 6
Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And God permitting, we will do so.
Look at 2 Peter 3 again: the things that are hard to understand aren't being examined and debated, they're being distorted. And Peter specifically mentions the subject in question as well (v.15): "Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him."Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And God permitting, we will do so.
You either deny "that our Lord's patience means salvation", or you take it to mean "our Lord's patience means damnation", but Peter says they lead to destruction or loss of security.
That's verses 7-10. Now read the other half of what Jesus said as well, in verses 1-6. He's talked about sin, faith, and duty. The disciples ask Jesus to increase there faith so that they might perform their duty. Jesus in turns tells them that even faith as small as a mustard seed will be enough to perform what was required, and turns the image around: faith tells them what to do, and they should obey. Instead of 'increase our faith', they should rather increase their obedience, because that's the real obstacle. It's God at work, we should expect no honour for what He does. Verse 20: "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation".
There's no question that it's profitable. But not the way Capitalism defines profit.
Titus 3:8
This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.
"For everyone", i.e. not just for yourself.This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.
If you trust your own will enough, but that's not much different in practice than having faith in God's will for you. But whoever tries to keep his life will lose it. It doesn't belong to you, it belongs to death. Sin is rebellion, but God does not force me not to sin. It's a voluntary subjection to Him, instead of to myself. I was bought from slavery under the kingdoms of men and set free under God's conditions, and I can imagine no greater freedom. As Jesus explained above, we're saved by faith, yes, but faith is obedience, and obedience does not mean sitting on your hands - it means taking up your cross and following in God's footsteps.
We know through Jesus what it really means to "take up one's cross". It means bearing public scorn, mocking and rejection for something that is greater and more lasting than the death penalty bearing down on our shoulders. After all, aren't you implying that what Jesus did and endured was also "unprofitable" - that it was a perfectly good life wasted? He did do it purely by faith and obedience, you know.
Because a secular justice system doesn't have that authority. It can't regulate love, or punish hatred. It can only try to compensate after a crime have been committed. They try to quantify an abstract as best they can, based on the fruits of sin, put a time value on it and declare it "just". Their existence depends on society accepting their authority. If every member of society really takes "I'd rather do what I personally think is right, according to my own viewpoint", to its conclusion, it implies anarchy. The two are mutually exclusive. Are we in constant negotiation with something that doesn't exist?
According Singapore and Thailand's justice, only one thing warrants the death penalty: drugs. Manslaughter gets two years. Imagine that legislation in America. Imagine everything that's wrong in the world being judged globally. Who has authority over "what you think is right"?
No doubt all men will be resurrected to be judged. What sense is there in judging only people who are already considered righteous? Note that Paul speaks of this as "hope". If he did not expect to see justice, how could it inspire hope? Also note that nowhere is physical pain desribed. Daniel calls it "everlasting shame and contempt", John calls it damnation. They're not things you feel by being roasted in a fire. I don't think it's more desireable, but I do think it undermines your understanding somewhat to continue thinking of hell on impractical terms, as if it were a version of the Tower of London.
The only one who thinks you're imperfect is you. The last one who expects you to be imperfect, or to let imperfection cause your downfall, is God. God created you for life - He gives life. Why choose against Him and choose death? Compare what you believe with what God had foreseen when He created you:Convenient hypothesis, again, it boils down to "You did something bad in your life, you weren't perfect, I have to torture you for eternity because, even though I'm loving, omnipotent and omniscient, and knew you'd be imperfect, and knew you couldn't avoid it, I created you with an eternal soul. Mind you, I knew you'd do wrong, but I still created you with an eternal soul. And in the case of those who don't believe in Jesus, I knew you'd also not believe in Jesus. So, to sum up, I'm loving, omnipotent, omniscient, and knew you'd be imperfect, I created you with an eternal soul, knew you'd not believe in Jesus, so I have to torture you for eternity." Oh that makes a load of sense.
Romans 8:38-
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The only thing not on that list is you.For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You don't know what God knows, and your actions aren't determined by what God knows. You said so yourself. If you move from where you're rooted, you'll find yourself on holy ground. You're not where you're supposed to be, and that's why your thoughts are dominated by hell and damnation. If you choke on something, spit it out before you die from it.
It's almost the same answer as the one about being a slave to God. It's in reference to Isaiah 8:12-14. Do not fear what the world fears, because there is nothing to fear but God, and "the fear of the Lord leads to life: Then one rests content, untouched by trouble." (Proverbs 19:23).
Death, like all things, had a specific place in creation. Paul used it to describe how the body dies to bring forth another body, like a seed dies in the ground to bring forth wheat or whatever. The sun could not burn with entropy. But like the sun, we will burn out if our only fuel is death. When God told Adam he would die, it was a warning of what would happen if sin cut off his supply of life. Like I said, sin and death both mean separation from God. If you think the Bible was just giving some vague wisdom about the consequences of sin, you've missed the point that was made in Genesis 1. Spirtual, eternal death is the wages, the offsping, of sin. We only see the birth of hell in this life, but we have no idea what the conclusion will look like.
Those last two words are only the conclusion you come to. The author of Ecclesiastes pondered the same question (Eccles.9), and came to another conclusion:
Eccles. 12:13-14
Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the whole duty of man.
For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
Imagine being in love, and then answer this: if you had the opportunity to have that feeling - that relationship - forever, would you still prefer it to end? Ever seen two people in love together, even if they do nothing? Even twiddling thumbs can be fun with someone you love
. Now imagine roaming galaxies with that person.That's not what Genesis says, by the way. But anyway, following my example above, a request to end it would be eternally selfish. It's the kind of thing Satan would do - did do, by some accounts. He was given his "freedom", and caused all kinds of mischief (to put it lightly). Imagine what your suicide does to a loved one, and reconsider whether you love them. The conclusion of your decision will be distilled in heaven or hell.
That's the same gripe that Jonah had, when God said He would spare Nineveh if they repented. The problem isn't really with God's fairness, it's with His mercy. It that we have vested interests in death being final. It's an assumption that validates many things we'd like to believe. But you're not allowing for God knowing a person; He's not a automated slot machine that can be fooled with a quarter. And once again, hell is eternal because it's final - maybe for no other reason. Before that. there simply is no option but the option: choose between life and death, or let your "nature" choose for you.
I don't think it's a strength to only serve yourself, I think it's an abdication.
And you accuse me of "convenient hypotheses"? What is more convenient: being accountable for your life and deeds, or not being accountable? Giving just enough authority to a democratically selected system of justice to soothe your conscience is not enough. It's token accountability.
anonymous2 said:
Yes, we are slaves of God. The very word LORD (Greek Kurios) means "master" and this is exactly the choice we are given - make Jesus your Lord/master or be thrown into the lake of fire for eternity (I personally don't think we actually understand this term since we don't understand the absense of time). It gets worse though. If you read Exodus 21, you find that male slaves are released after six years of service. Female slaves are never released. To God, we are like female slaves - however, there is a redeeming factor. Just as females bear sons, so we bear a son (thankfully, God asks and does not force us), which is molded into the likeness of Jesus (your body and your brain die - the son is formed from a combination of your spirit and the spirit of God). There comes a time when we are no longer slaves, but sons (this does not happen immediately). Son does not mean baby boy, it means grown-up heir. (we are put under tutors and governors until the time apoint by the Father - Gal 4:2). We become like princes in the kingdom of God - but we will never be the eldest son and the king will never die. Heaven is not a democracy. Yet, sons have at least some authority - we will ask for whatever we will and it will be given to us (at least in part because we will be grown up and will not ask against the will of God). Little baby Christians see scriptures like this and then get dissapointed when God, their Father, has the audacity to tell His little baby NO. Big surprise! It will not always be so.
Somehow, this doesn't seem so bad after all.
(I seem to see in the bible that not all will bear sons - some will make Jesus Lord but will still refuse him and so will never bear a son - kind of like someone who gets engaged/married but will never consent to consumation. What will these be in heaven? Not sons.)