Imanauel means "God with us." The translators of the Septuagint did not mistranslate Almah into virgin because the word in some contexts can mean "virgin." We don't have the text that the translators of the Septuagint used, nor do we know why they translated it to virgin.
why jesus jew and not christian?
- Thread starter robtex
- Start date
Mary is specifically designated as a “virgin” (Grk. parthenos - Mt. 1:23; Lk. 1:27), which term indicates a sexually pure woman. There are many examples in classical Greek where the meaning of “purity” is associated with parthenos. Euripides said: “My soul is virgin” (Hippolytus 1006). Aeschylus spoke of water that flows from a “pure spring” (Persae 613). When a young girl named Atalanta reached the age of puberty, she expressed the wish “to remain a virgin” (Apollodorus, Bibliotheca 2.9.2).
The Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) speaks of a “virgin sister . . . who is not espoused to a man” (Lev. 21:3). Another text records the case of “young virgins, that had not known man by lying with him” (Judg. 21:12). The virgin birth of Christ was prophesied by Isaiah seven centuries before the event came to pass (Isa. 7:14).
http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/virginBirth.htm
The Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) speaks of a “virgin sister . . . who is not espoused to a man” (Lev. 21:3). Another text records the case of “young virgins, that had not known man by lying with him” (Judg. 21:12). The virgin birth of Christ was prophesied by Isaiah seven centuries before the event came to pass (Isa. 7:14).
http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/virginBirth.htm
okinrus: Imanauel means "God with us." The translators of the Septuagint did not mistranslate Almah into virgin because the word in some contexts can mean "virgin." We don't have the text that the translators of the Septuagint used, nor do we know why they translated it to virgin.
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M*W: I don't believe it was the translators of the Septuagint that mistranslated it. I believe I've read it was mistranslated in the KJV. The myth of a virgin giving birth is an ancient belief predating even the old testament. This myth is also found predominantly in pagan cultures.
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M*W: I don't believe it was the translators of the Septuagint that mistranslated it. I believe I've read it was mistranslated in the KJV. The myth of a virgin giving birth is an ancient belief predating even the old testament. This myth is also found predominantly in pagan cultures.
You're thinking of something else. The KJV used the textus receptus by Erasmus, I think. There's some quotation in 1 John or so that might be erroneous.
This isn't really true, however. I can't think of any before Christ. Some people mention Mithra, but Mithra was really born from a cliff. I've read a similar Indian Myth where one of the gods took human form, and Gilgamesh also has a similar legend where Enriku is made from the earth.
okinrus]You're thinking of something else. The KJV used the textus receptus by Erasmus, I think. There's some quotation in 1 John or so that might be erroneous.
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M*W: I've read where there are more than 3,000 errors in the KJV.
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okinrus: This isn't really true, however. I can't think of any before Christ. Some people mention Mithra, but Mithra was really born from a cliff. I've read a similar Indian Myth where one of the gods took human form, and Gilgamesh also has a similar legend where Enriku is made from the earth.
M*W: From the book Mary: The Unauthorized Biography, by Michael Jordan:
"In pagan Rome, the Vestal Virgins and the priestesses of the great goddess Pallas Athene were considered the moral and social equals of their Christian counterparts and their chastity was dedicated to the well-being of the state[Ambrose, De Virginibus (I) 4.14-15]. Even Plato had argued that the salvation of the soul could best be achieved by refraining from passion and through the regular use of prayers. Nor was the Christian view - of a virgin being impregnated by a god before giving birth to a great leader - unique. Romans considered the Phrygian goddess Kybelle, who became their Magna mater to be a virgin mother. It was also widely held in both Greek and Roman traditions that the mythical founder of Rome, Romulus, the twin brother of Remus, was born to a mother who had been impregnated by the god Mars. In Rome the cult of Mithraism had been imported from India via Persia as a powerful influence which blended well with the monotheistic religion of Zoroastrianism: the god Mithras was known to have been borm from a rock, symbolising the sun rising from behind mountains. Vergin deities like Vesta, the hearth goddess, were also revered and frequently invoked."
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M*W: I've read where there are more than 3,000 errors in the KJV.
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okinrus: This isn't really true, however. I can't think of any before Christ. Some people mention Mithra, but Mithra was really born from a cliff. I've read a similar Indian Myth where one of the gods took human form, and Gilgamesh also has a similar legend where Enriku is made from the earth.
M*W: From the book Mary: The Unauthorized Biography, by Michael Jordan:
"In pagan Rome, the Vestal Virgins and the priestesses of the great goddess Pallas Athene were considered the moral and social equals of their Christian counterparts and their chastity was dedicated to the well-being of the state[Ambrose, De Virginibus (I) 4.14-15]. Even Plato had argued that the salvation of the soul could best be achieved by refraining from passion and through the regular use of prayers. Nor was the Christian view - of a virgin being impregnated by a god before giving birth to a great leader - unique. Romans considered the Phrygian goddess Kybelle, who became their Magna mater to be a virgin mother. It was also widely held in both Greek and Roman traditions that the mythical founder of Rome, Romulus, the twin brother of Remus, was born to a mother who had been impregnated by the god Mars. In Rome the cult of Mithraism had been imported from India via Persia as a powerful influence which blended well with the monotheistic religion of Zoroastrianism: the god Mithras was known to have been borm from a rock, symbolising the sun rising from behind mountains. Vergin deities like Vesta, the hearth goddess, were also revered and frequently invoked."
Well, you'll probably find I can be pretty intolerant myself - primarily of bad spelling and grammar. I'll leave you alone for now except to say that the word is "common", not "comming" (took me a while to even figure out what you were saying!). Now I look again, I think you meant to write "uncommon" since you employed it with the phrase "far from"Godless said:
SouthStar:
Obviously, since the fact that the Gospel stating that the mother of Jesus was a virgin is not in dispute.
Not unless they switched to English for that part. That the bible mentions virgins is not in dispute, I think we can safely say that Chapter 21 of Leviticus is not any prophecy about the Messiah.
It seems to me to be clear that the English translation has put the word "virgin" in, thus making the entire phrase a tautology, whereas if the original Hebrew word meant "young woman" then it actually makes more logical sense. "Young virgins who'd never slept with anyone"? Wha..? But "Young girls who'd never slept with anyone"... Ah, virgins, you mean.
Biblical scholars more knowledgable than I disagree. Of course, the rationalist viewpoint does not accept that biblical prophecies were actual foretellings. In this case, however, the Jesus interpretation was put on Isaiah after the fact
Ah, forget it - I thought you were speaking for yourself, now I see you were just quoting from an article which actually stretches the bounds of credulity.
SouthStar: re your link at http://www.christiancourier.com/penpoints/virginBirth.htm :
Remember, we're talking about a supposed virgin birth. But apparently casting doubt upon a (I'll emphasise it again) virgin having given birth is "fantasy". However, the only evidence the article offers is the fact that it says she was a virgin in the bible. I loved this part:
Yes, of course - betrothal required sexual abstinence, so it chuckle, chuckle, goes without saying that they were sexually abstinent!
Wayne Jackson hasn't noticed that in his supposed rational defence of the miracle of the virgin birth he's unquestioningly included the part where an Angel came to visit Mary. He forgot to mention that Joseph's qualms were actually assuaged by an angel who came to visit him. However, for presumably both of these visitations we are relying entirely on the word of Mary and Joseph themselves. Or did Matthew make them up? Maybe Joseph wasn't actually minded to put Mary away, since Jesus was his son!
Gaawwwdammm!!! I guess you've never had a TYPO!!!!
Anyhow picking on mispelling and shiet around here is considered prety lowball!!
And you will leave me alone for now? What's that a threat? lol!!!
Put your panties on straight son, your not fucking with my emotions or attitude, for mispelling or bad grammar! I say this ain't high school anymore!.
Man all I'm trying to say is just RELAAAAAAAAAAAAAAXS!! Ok
Godless.
scombridae1969
Registered Member
Hi...
I am new to this board and this is my first post/reply...I hope you don't all mind that I jump right in. A bit of background:
I am studying for my MA in Theology at Fuller Thelogical Seminary. I am Christian.
Regarding Jesus/Jewry....
From what I can figure, Jesus was a Jew. I don't ever find that he separates himself from his Jewish context although he seems to have had quite a contrary view of where first century Judaism was going.
Although viewed as radical, he also seems to have based his platform on the historic Jewish interpretations of the Law and Prophets (something he felt was lost in the context of first century Rabbinical Judaism). In particular (esp. in book of Matthew) Jesus staunchly defends his position that he has come to fulfill the Law rather than to invalidate it - a defense neccesary since his perspectives on what he considered to be the deeper, true nature of the Law were contrary to the mindset of the Phrasaic view. BTW, the "Law" here refers to the Torah and is essential to the self-awareness of anyone within the Jewish faith.
Jesus specifically quotes Jewish scripture as a basis of forming his own self-awareness as the fulfilment of prophecy and as the messiah (this is not to argue against those, including Jews, who do not believe Jesus was the messiah or a fulfillment of prophecy - this is just to underscore what Jesus himself seems to have believed). From his perspective, Jesus clearly considered himself a bona-fide Jew.
The first "Christians" were originally considered a sect of Judaism (both by the Romans in in self-awareness). They did not name themselves and were awarded the title from one of them emperors (before Nero, I think). They were initially closely associated with the temple cult (not a negative term used here) and so considered, for all practical purposes, a segment of Judaism.
The book of Matthew is particularly focused on the Jewish identity of Jesus as he places primacy on his ministry on the Jews as firstfruits.
With all due respect...I think an argument that Jesus was "Christian" and not a Jew reflects a sort anachronist, Christian-centric view on Christ which often carries anti-Jewish undertones.
My $.02
MC
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I am new to this board and this is my first post/reply...I hope you don't all mind that I jump right in. A bit of background:
I am studying for my MA in Theology at Fuller Thelogical Seminary. I am Christian.
Regarding Jesus/Jewry....
From what I can figure, Jesus was a Jew. I don't ever find that he separates himself from his Jewish context although he seems to have had quite a contrary view of where first century Judaism was going.
Although viewed as radical, he also seems to have based his platform on the historic Jewish interpretations of the Law and Prophets (something he felt was lost in the context of first century Rabbinical Judaism). In particular (esp. in book of Matthew) Jesus staunchly defends his position that he has come to fulfill the Law rather than to invalidate it - a defense neccesary since his perspectives on what he considered to be the deeper, true nature of the Law were contrary to the mindset of the Phrasaic view. BTW, the "Law" here refers to the Torah and is essential to the self-awareness of anyone within the Jewish faith.
Jesus specifically quotes Jewish scripture as a basis of forming his own self-awareness as the fulfilment of prophecy and as the messiah (this is not to argue against those, including Jews, who do not believe Jesus was the messiah or a fulfillment of prophecy - this is just to underscore what Jesus himself seems to have believed). From his perspective, Jesus clearly considered himself a bona-fide Jew.
The first "Christians" were originally considered a sect of Judaism (both by the Romans in in self-awareness). They did not name themselves and were awarded the title from one of them emperors (before Nero, I think). They were initially closely associated with the temple cult (not a negative term used here) and so considered, for all practical purposes, a segment of Judaism.
The book of Matthew is particularly focused on the Jewish identity of Jesus as he places primacy on his ministry on the Jews as firstfruits.
With all due respect...I think an argument that Jesus was "Christian" and not a Jew reflects a sort anachronist, Christian-centric view on Christ which often carries anti-Jewish undertones.
My $.02
MC
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robtex said:
Hi scombridae1969 (had to cut and paste that )
Welcome to the forums. We could use someone with your knowledge!
It seems you came at bad time, though - the email notification isn't working so replies are slow in coming in (at least for some of us). Hope that doesn't keep you from posting a lot more here.
Yours in Christ
Jenyar
)Welcome to the forums. We could use someone with your knowledge!
It seems you came at bad time, though - the email notification isn't working so replies are slow in coming in (at least for some of us). Hope that doesn't keep you from posting a lot more here.
Yours in Christ
Jenyar
scombridae1969, wow that was interesting. So if I had to paraphrase you in a quick summary are you stating that Christians are neo-jew? Or are you saying Christians are jews who believe Jesus was the Messiah? If that is true would you than consider Mormans who see books being written in more modern times as neo-christians?
In your estimation is Jesus a Jew or Christian today?
In your estimation is Jesus a Jew or Christian today?
To give the historical reason why Jesus is a jew. We all know or at lest most of us know jesus' story. Not everyone knows how Chritianity comes from.
After his death, Jesus' deciples began to preach to the gentiles and jews. There a group of Gentiles that called them Christians in their native tounge. To use it means "little christs". Jesus was a jew, but of course he did not agree with the priests. he has his own beliefs, being the son of God.
After his death, Jesus' deciples began to preach to the gentiles and jews. There a group of Gentiles that called them Christians in their native tounge. To use it means "little christs". Jesus was a jew, but of course he did not agree with the priests. he has his own beliefs, being the son of God.
camphlps: To give the historical reason why Jesus is a jew. We all know or at lest most of us know jesus' story. Not everyone knows how Chritianity comes from.
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M*W: Why was Jesus a Jew? I think some of us would like to know that. Some of us don't know or don't agree where Christianity comes from. Please tell us what you know.
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camphlps: After his death, Jesus' deciples began to preach to the gentiles and jews. There a group of Gentiles that called them Christians in their native tounge.
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M*W: That's interesting! I never knew any Gentiles called themselves Christians. What was their native tongue?
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camphlps: To use it means "little christs". Jesus was a jew, but of course he did not agree with the priests. he has his own beliefs, being the son of God.
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M*W: I think I've read in the Bible where it said Jesus was a Rabbi. Could the Son of God be a Rabbi? I'm not that familiar with all the Bible verses, but where does it say in scripture that Jesus didn't agree with the priests? How were Jesus' beliefs different? I look forward to your answers.
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M*W: Why was Jesus a Jew? I think some of us would like to know that. Some of us don't know or don't agree where Christianity comes from. Please tell us what you know.
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camphlps: After his death, Jesus' deciples began to preach to the gentiles and jews. There a group of Gentiles that called them Christians in their native tounge.
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M*W: That's interesting! I never knew any Gentiles called themselves Christians. What was their native tongue?
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camphlps: To use it means "little christs". Jesus was a jew, but of course he did not agree with the priests. he has his own beliefs, being the son of God.
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M*W: I think I've read in the Bible where it said Jesus was a Rabbi. Could the Son of God be a Rabbi? I'm not that familiar with all the Bible verses, but where does it say in scripture that Jesus didn't agree with the priests? How were Jesus' beliefs different? I look forward to your answers.
MW
Matt 25/26
Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?" Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you
Matt 26/49
Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him
mark 9/5
Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters–one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah
mark 10/51
What do you want me to do for you?" Jesus asked him. The blind man said, "Rabbi, I want to see.
mark 14/45
Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Rabbi!" and kissed him
john 1:38
Turning around, Jesus saw them following and asked, "What do you want?" They said, "Rabbi" "where are you staying
john 3:2
He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.
John 6:25
When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?"
(ect ect, source biblegateway.com keywords jesus rabbi).
I didn't think about it before but Judism does not believe in orginal sin and as far as I have ever read no place in the Bible does Jesus promote the concept of orginal sin. If Jesus did not believe in orginal sin (a cornerstone of Christanity) how could he ever have been a Christian? More importantly if he did not promote orginal sin than how would he promote himself as the savior of Christians?
Matt 25/26
Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?" Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you
Matt 26/49
Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him
mark 9/5
Peter said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters–one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah
mark 10/51
What do you want me to do for you?" Jesus asked him. The blind man said, "Rabbi, I want to see.
mark 14/45
Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Rabbi!" and kissed him
john 1:38
Turning around, Jesus saw them following and asked, "What do you want?" They said, "Rabbi" "where are you staying
john 3:2
He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.
John 6:25
When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?"
(ect ect, source biblegateway.com keywords jesus rabbi).
I didn't think about it before but Judism does not believe in orginal sin and as far as I have ever read no place in the Bible does Jesus promote the concept of orginal sin. If Jesus did not believe in orginal sin (a cornerstone of Christanity) how could he ever have been a Christian? More importantly if he did not promote orginal sin than how would he promote himself as the savior of Christians?
1) Rabbi means 'my master', an honorific title for a teacher, like a Ph.D. This is evident from Jesus' use of it in Matthew 23.
.
Ironically, what you know of rabbi's today probably comes from Christian tradition:
History
The rabbi is not an occupation found in the Torah (Five books of Moses); the first time this word is mentioned is in the Mishnah [dating from around 80CE]. The modern form of the rabbi developed in the Talmudic era. Rabbis are given authority to make interpretations of Jewish law and custom.
Rabbi is a Hebrew term used as a title for those who are distinguished for learning, who are the authoritative teachers of the Law, and who are the appointed spiritual heads of the community. The word Rabbi is derived from the Hebrew word RV, which in biblical Hebrew means "great" or "distinguished,". In the ancient Judean schools the sages were addressed as "Rabbi" (my master). This term of respectful address gradually came to be used as a title, the pronominal suffix "i" (my) losing its significance with the frequent use of the term. - Websters Online
And according to the JewishEncyclopedia:The rabbi is not an occupation found in the Torah (Five books of Moses); the first time this word is mentioned is in the Mishnah [dating from around 80CE]. The modern form of the rabbi developed in the Talmudic era. Rabbis are given authority to make interpretations of Jewish law and custom.
Rabbi is a Hebrew term used as a title for those who are distinguished for learning, who are the authoritative teachers of the Law, and who are the appointed spiritual heads of the community. The word Rabbi is derived from the Hebrew word RV, which in biblical Hebrew means "great" or "distinguished,". In the ancient Judean schools the sages were addressed as "Rabbi" (my master). This term of respectful address gradually came to be used as a title, the pronominal suffix "i" (my) losing its significance with the frequent use of the term. - Websters Online
The title 'Rabbi' is borne by the sages of Palestine, who were ordained there by the Sanhedrin in accordance with the custom handed down by the elders, and were denominated 'Rabbi,' and received authority to judge penal cases
Jesus was not ordained by anyone but God. Not even the great leader of the Sanhedrin, Hillel, was called "rabbi" (he presided during the reign of Herod the Great (37-4 BC)):The more ancient generations, however, which were far superior, had no such titles as 'Rabban,' 'Rabbi,' or 'Rab,' for either the Babylonian or Palestinian sages. This is evident from the fact that Hillel I., who came from Babylon, had not the title 'Rabban' prefixed to his name.
Wherever Jesus received his authority from, it was not from the Sanhedrin. That he was called rabbi at all, means that his disciples recognized him as an authority higher than the ordained Pharisees. That would have excited them no end .Ironically, what you know of rabbi's today probably comes from Christian tradition:
As a matter of course, the example of the minister in the Church, especially in Protestant countries, exerted a great influence upon the function and position of the rabbi in the Synagogue; even upon his outward appearance, since the vestments of the Christian clergy, or their abandonment, have sometimes been copied by the modern rabbi...
Another function of the modern rabbi which follows the pastoral practise of the Christian minister is the offering of consolation and sympathy to persons or families in bereavement and distress, in forms perhaps more cheering and elevating than those formerly in use. Here, as well as in his pulpit and educational work, the modern rabbi has the opportunity of bringing the blessings of religion home to every individual in need of spiritual uplifting. - JE: Rabbi
2) 'Original sin' is a misnomer. But it comes down to this:Another function of the modern rabbi which follows the pastoral practise of the Christian minister is the offering of consolation and sympathy to persons or families in bereavement and distress, in forms perhaps more cheering and elevating than those formerly in use. Here, as well as in his pulpit and educational work, the modern rabbi has the opportunity of bringing the blessings of religion home to every individual in need of spiritual uplifting. - JE: Rabbi
1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
As for what Jews believe: "There is no man that sinneth not" (I Kings viii. 46); "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not" (Eccl. vii. 20; see Sanh. 105a).If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
On the other hand, it is maintained that at least four persons—Benjamin, Amram, Jesse, and Chileab—died without having committed any sin and merely as the result of Adam's weakness in yielding to the temptation of the serpent. - JewishEncyclopedia: Sin
Make of that what you will.
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anonymous2
Registered Senior Member
I'm guessing Jews might say that those people mentioned are exceptions, and there are verses (to me) which could be interpreted as referring to people being sinless (at least at the time), such as Noah and Job being "blameless". Christians themselves have an exception to the "all have sinned" idea, that is Jesus. And Catholics add Mary to that I believe.
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robtex: MW
"I didn't think about it before but Judism does not believe in orginal sin and as far as I have ever read no place in the Bible does Jesus promote the concept of orginal sin. If Jesus did not believe in orginal sin (a cornerstone of Christanity) how could he ever have been a Christian? More importantly if he did not promote orginal sin than how would he promote himself as the savior of Christians?"
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M*W: Jesus wasn't a Christian!!! He was a Jew, and he never promoted himself as the savior of Christians. It is doubtful in his circle of associates that there were any "Christians." His primary focus was of, by and for, the Jews.
"I didn't think about it before but Judism does not believe in orginal sin and as far as I have ever read no place in the Bible does Jesus promote the concept of orginal sin. If Jesus did not believe in orginal sin (a cornerstone of Christanity) how could he ever have been a Christian? More importantly if he did not promote orginal sin than how would he promote himself as the savior of Christians?"
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M*W: Jesus wasn't a Christian!!! He was a Jew, and he never promoted himself as the savior of Christians. It is doubtful in his circle of associates that there were any "Christians." His primary focus was of, by and for, the Jews.
There isn't much reason to think Mary was sinless, or exceptional people. That was why the Pharisees were so surprised when they saw Jesus doing great things (Matt.3:55). But Jesus didn't have the connection with Adam that everybody else have - he was not part of that "weakness" that made even otherwise sinless men subject to death. Incidentally, Adam was also called the son of God (Luke 3:38), and Jesus the "last Adam" or the "second man" (1 Corinthians 15). Compare this with my last quote above:anonymous said:
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Death was a consequence of sin, and it's a consequence we're all born into. It's not something innocense or sinlessness can undo. Being who you're supposed to be isn't a virtue, it's a responsibility. An action was required out of sinlessness. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Noah and Job weren't saved because they were sinless, but because they were obedient to something that needed to be done. Noah would have drowned, righteousness and all, if he had not built the ark. Job still died, but expected eternal life by faith. The book just describes his faith in action.