Why is the bible the "word of god"?

[wesmorris]

Sorry I almost gave up on you for a second. This should help.

Originally posted by okinrus
You have to be open to the possibility that God created logic.

Why do you presume that I'm not?

Originally posted by okinrus

Using your "logic" we'd have to throw out logic.

Man I know you're trying but it's just such a tired argument to me. Blah blah. Der, but you see, there's not motivation to throw out logic because you've only done so on a presumption.

Originally posted by okinrus

Also the bible does not teach that it will lead us to all truth. Jesus said that the Spirit of Truth would lead us to all truth and that we should worship what we understand in spirit and truth.

What if I substituted "wesmorris" for jesus and "cheese" for truth? Would you still believe it?

Originally posted by okinrus

So the premise that God is trueful is obvious correct?

None. How would you deduce that you're reached some sort of conclusion? You haven't followed a reasonable chain of thinking. If you focus, it's possible for you to realize your reasoning is circular. Circular reasoning is invalid and as such, your point is the same.

Originally posted by okinrus

And if he created us, he must have a reason for creating us?

But you just said reasoning was invalid, now you're trying to reason with me. Which is it?

Originally posted by okinrus

So we must be created through love.

How is that even remotely reasonable? What if his reason was sodomy? What if it was to answer the lonliness? What there was no reason? What if we are simply because we can be? Why do you think the things you repeat to yourself to attempt to make sense of it all are even remotely valid?

Is it because that's what your cult tells you? NO, that couldn't be it. Is it because you don't understand complicated systems but have an emotional need to pretend to yourself that you do so you let the cult provide satiation for that need via your SELL OUT to the infinite stupidity, the asshole of the abstract... religion.

They deal you spiritual crack and you don't even know they're doing it. That's pathetic. Wake up bitch! Be a fucking man and THINK. Maybe you don't have the skillz, if not.. then learn from those who do.

 

[okinrus]

I'm not trying to put together a logical proof in this post. However we can be fairly certain that God would have to create logic before creating the world or maybe logic is an atribute of God.

What if I substituted "wesmorris" for jesus and "cheese" for truth? Would you still believe it?

You seem to say that we think that the bible is all we have. I've already told you that the bible says the only way to worship God is through the Sprit of Truth. Paul says that the only way to know Jesus is Lord is by the Spirit. So we cannot just read something and believe it on our own.

How is that even remotely reasonable? What if his reason was sodomy?

God defines what is evil and what is goood.

What if it was to answer the lonliness?

This would still make his creation out of love. Why would God create something that he hates?

Is it because that's what your cult tells you? NO, that couldn't be it. Is it because you don't understand complicated systems but have an emotional need to pretend to yourself that you do so you let the cult provide satiation for that need via your SELL OUT to the infinite stupidity, the asshole of the abstract... religion.

And may we ask what complicated systems do you understand? This is sheer arogance to call someone a member of cult. Then you try to prove that someone "sold" something when I have only choose to read the documents that others have written. Also my emotional system is far more complicated than any system that you understand. However do you understand your own emotions? How we grasp something is how it's presented.

They deal you spiritual crack and you don't even know they're doing it. That's pathetic. Wake up bitch! Be a fucking man and THINK. Maybe you don't have the skillz, if not.. then learn from those who do.

I have done mathematical proofs and such. And well frankly it's tiring so don't expect anyone to produce a proof for you on these message boards. I will just write sketches and give evidence. If you cannot logically disprove God then why should you expect a logical proof of God anyways? In fact, I've mentioned already that you cannot prove the existance of anything you see.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Okinrus you wrote: We believe that the magnificents of the creator is his goodness. And being the source of all goodness we know him by doing good as no one can do good without him.

If there is only one god and one creator and all things come from this one entity, then whom would you say created evil, the bad, the wrong, profane (you get my meaning)?

Is it that you believe there was no good in the world, no people who behaved with decency, love and compassion before monotheism took hold? Or like Dante do you think they are in the first circle of hell along with plato, socrates and the good heathens who had never heard of this one god?

 

[okinrus]

If there is only one god and one creator and all things come from this one entity, then whom would you say created evil, the bad, the wrong, profane (you get my meaning)?

Well I think you agree that having freewill is good. I mean for you to love someone you must have freely chosen to love him. So the moment that God gives us freewill he has allowed us to commit evil by disobeying him.

Is it that you believe there was no good in the world, no people who behaved with decency, love and compassion before monotheism took hold? Or like Dante do you think they are in the first circle of hell along with plato, socrates and the good heathens who had never heard of this one god?

No, obviously people do good without aknowedging God. Jesus said that those who do not know the will of God, but acted in a manner deserving a severe beating will be punished lightly. I don't think they will be in hell, but they will go to purgatory or heaven.

 

[LogicalAtheist]

See Wes I told ya so.

Nah nah nah nah NAH NAH!

 

[okinrus]

If there is no God, who created logic?

 

[buffys]

ok. im gonna give it a try

okinrus, you mentioned purgatory ... thats a perfect example of what concerns me about many religion's perspective of god. From my (admittedly incomplete) understanding of christian history, the concept of purgatory was never uttered by christ nor was it even mentioned in the bible. Purgatory was a construct of the catholic church in the middle ages.

My point is that most religions seem to be a conglomeration of earlier ideas combined with the political needs of a particular era. We are left with vague, simplified and often contradictory views of the "truth". Im not saying there is no god (i really don't know), im saying the picture that christianity (i use that faith because im most familiar with it) has of god is so skewed by time and interpretation that it no longer (if it ever did) resembles the "truth".


Here's an example, have you ever played that game "the grapevine"? you sit in a circle (lets say 10 people), the first person starts with a statement and they pass it to the next in whispers and that statement gets passed on around the circle. The reason the game is interesting is because the idea changes with each telling. even in a group as small as ten people the idea gets irretrievably mangled. Now lets extend that game to billions of people over thousands of years ... even if you started with the "truth" (which seems unlikely to me but you never know), at the end of the circle the message becomes so distorted as to have no meaning. Now, add to that the political/financial needs of a "church" (eg. purgatory=tithes) and your left with a human made fiction.

Is there a god(s)? i have no idea but one thing i am positive of is that if we ever knew the "truth" its so corrupted by time and a need to control the "followers" that what we are left with is essentially gibberish.

im not saying god isnt real ... im saying that if a god(s) exist we have muddied the "truth" to the point that the religions we've formed have become a cartoon.

 

[okinrus]

okinrus, you mentioned purgatory ... thats a perfect example of what concerns me about many religion's perspective of god. From my (admittedly incomplete) understanding of christian history, the concept of purgatory was never uttered by christ nor was it even mentioned in the bible. Purgatory was a construct of the catholic church in the middle ages.

No, some of the early christians believed in purgatory, but I forgot the name they used. The catacombs has many prayers for the dead written for love ones. Christ may have implied purgatory when he said in Luke, "You will not get out until you have payed the last penny" and Peter mentions a spiritual prision where Christ brought the good news. 2 Maccabee's talks about prayers to the dead as well. Probably not enough evidence on to declair purgatory existance or not. However many of the saints have seen apparitions of purgatory. It logical that most people will not be perfected in Christ. Paul says that he is not completely perfected in Christ. So the conclusion made is that if they are not perfected in this life, then they must be perfected in the next life.
http://holysouls.guardiansoftware.net/news040104.php
http://www.catholic-defense.com/purgatry2.htm

My point is that most religions seem to be a conglomeration of earlier ideas combined with the political needs of a particular era. We are left with vague, simplified and often contradictory views of the "truth". Im not saying there is no god (i really don't know), im saying the picture that christianity (i use that faith because im most familiar with it) has of god is so skewed by time and interpretation that it no longer (if it ever did) resembles the "truth".

Not really. If you read the writings of Justin, Ignatius, etc. you will find a consistant set of core beliefs.

Purgatory has nothing to do with tithes. Tithes are giving a 10 of everything. I don't think this was required by the Church. Penance would be prayers or giving alms to the poor etc.

Also because Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church, either Jesus was wrong and so is all of christianity or we are right.

 

[God_IS]

Originally posted by wesmorris
For the life of me I can't figure out why you christian types think the bible has any relevance regarding conversations on god. It makes me sick to see you spewing the bullshit you read in the bible as if it pertains in some way to something people other than you should deem 'holy'. I mean, I can respect your belief if you keep it to yourself but you can't can you?

I've heard an atheist say that "if he believed what was said in the Bible, he would be willing to go on his hands and knees over broken glass to share that knowledge with the next closest person".

Christians have a desire to introduce their fellow men to the truth and love they've found. And are encouraged by Jesus through the Bible to do so.

The greatest truth in philosophy is "knowing that you know nothing".
So what kind of knowledge is that?
Science only offers knowledge of material things; things that have a beginning and an end, things that do not last.
There is no truth in these types of things, because "TRUTH" is a concept that is eternal; something either conforms to "THE TRUTH", or it doesn't.
Since the Bible proclaims that Jesus said of Himself that HE IS the TRUTH, it is a logical consequence that whoever believes it, develops a need for sharing that knowledge.

It isn't very interesting if you like it or not.

You have to go around talking shit like this book of tall tales gives you some kind of insight as to the creation of the universe of the purpose of man. You pompous jackasses don't have any more of a clue than anyone else, yet you try to "save the souls" (rather, indoctrinate into your cult) of the unbelievers eh?

Provided the Biblical TRUTH is false. But who will prove that?

So tell me, what is the bible at all relevant to discussions of god? Why is it at all relevant outside your limited cult world-view? Just because you have to somehow justify your eronious beliefs?

I will not mention your flawed grammer
If the Bible IS the 'Word of God', and God had a hand in writing it (through the physical acts of writing of humans who served Him), your question is answered.

How would you like to go about proving God's existence and thus creating a possibility that there is truth in that Book?
Logic and science aren't capable of 'proving' anything (eventually) which is proof in itself that they are flawed concepts.

God cannot be proven by logic as we know it.
It is more important to believe that God IS, than to prove it!

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by badcliq
Flores,
you have really misunderstood me. I do no need Qu'ran to know bible it's right. and like i said, when you wanna explain to others, you use what they believe in to explain, there's no point giving them proofs that they do not believes in.

I see that you have elude the subject of the Quran contradictions. Haven't I shown you beyond doubt that your site answering Islam is nothing but liers meant to play on the mind of the innocents...Yet the bible contradictions are beyond the common sense and the word contradictions, they are flat out errors and embelishes of the authors entrusted with the book over thousands of years.

Originally posted by badcliq
Oh, your Allah didn't ask you people to gather around to have fellowships then?And are you saying all those other muslims who went to mosque are doing a disgusting orgy?So, a muslim that don't goto mosque is considered smarter and more righteous in some sense?

I love the way your say YOUR allah, like I'm an alien not of the human race that was created by some one else other than the one that created you. It's mine and your Allah, our creator, our god, the god of all muslims, christians, Atheists, animals, heave, and hell alike. His name is the creator, they call him, Allah, Eli, Alohim, Ala, Jehova, God, Dios, ect...depending on the language you speak. He is not Jesus, or Mohammed, or Ezra, or Elias, to a chosen race, or all of us are gods, or none of that greek mythology nonesense. And yes a stupid muslim that go to a mosque is an idiot, because god worship place have no walls and exclude no people, all religions and places belong to god and are equally beautifull.

 

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by LogicalAtheist
See Wes I told ya so.

Nah nah nah nah NAH NAH!

Well, I knew you were right before... but like I said, this is more for me that the cult members. I just enjoy exploring the ideas and it is always interesting to see a cultist behaving like a cultist by denying they're a cultist.

 

[EvilPoet]

If there is no God, who created logic?

Fundies say the darndest things!

 

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by okinrus
I'm not trying to put together a logical proof in this post.

Never asked for a logical proof. This is about reasonable thinking.

Originally posted by okinrus

However we can be fairly certain that God would have to create logic before creating the world or maybe logic is an atribute of God.

I can't. I suppose you're going to regardless of the stupidity so please knock yourself out.

Originally posted by okinrus

You seem to say that we think that the bible is all we have.

Man you have got to be stupid or something, THINK man, sheez. I say this because of the fact that you follow that statement with:

Originally posted by okinrus

I've already told you that the bible says the only way to worship God is through the Sprit of Truth.

But you were just trying to say that there's more than the bible and then you say stuff about the bible.

Originally posted by okinrus

Paul says that the only way to know Jesus is Lord is by the Spirit.

Hehe.. uhm.. let me guess where he said that.

Originally posted by okinrus

So we cannot just read something and believe it on our own.

LOL, man you're hopeless.

Originally posted by okinrus

God defines what is evil and what is goood.

Does he do that in the bible?

Originally posted by okinrus

This would still make his creation out of love.

Why do you think that? Have you ever drawn a valid conclusion about anything? Man that's got to be frustrating. I hope you're okay.

Originally posted by okinrus

Why would God create something that he hates?

You lack of reading comprehension or information retention is astounding. To answer the question: I don't know, neither do you.

Originally posted by okinrus

And may we ask what complicated systems do you understand?

I think it's kind of obvious. Read my posts. I'm a thinker.

Originally posted by okinrus

This is sheer arogance to call someone a member of cult.

It's just applying a definition, if you don't like it, don't fit the def.

Originally posted by okinrus

Then you try to prove that someone "sold" something when I have only choose to read the documents that others have written.

Apparently you've bought into it a little more than just reading it. I mean, you've read my posts but obviously don't understand my meaning.. so...

Originally posted by okinrus

Also my emotional system is far more complicated than any system that you understand.

That's possible, but I'm pretty good man. I've never known anyone with instincts as good as mine. I'm not perfect of course, just very good. I just understand certain things about minds because in that capacity my interests are aligned with my talents.

Originally posted by okinrus

However do you understand your own emotions?

Yes.

Originally posted by okinrus

How we grasp something is how it's presented.

No, you grasp something through your perspective. What is the connection to the presentation? I mean, I've given you a lot of valid reasoning as to why you're an idiot, but you don't grasp that presentation.... why?

Originally posted by okinrus

I have done mathematical proofs and such.

You're not lying about that? It's a sin ya know? Hell! Don't be a sinner. LOL. Okay, if you say so. Could you show more evidence that merely the claim? You could try actually using your skill conversationally. Go ahead, it's fun!

Originally posted by okinrus

And well frankly it's tiring so don't expect anyone to produce a proof for you on these message boards.

Did I ask you for one? I merely ask that you attempt to make sense. Thus far brother, you have failed miserably.

Originally posted by okinrus

If you cannot logically disprove God then why should you expect a logical proof of God anyways?

Didn't ask for one. A related question though might be: Why does religion preclude logic? Because "it's tiring"?

Originally posted by okinrus

In fact, I've mentioned already that you cannot prove the existance of anything you see.

Wow, you have finally written one part of a sentence I agree with. Nicely done.

 

[wesmorris]

Re: Re: Why is the bible the "word of god"?

Originally posted by God_IS
I've heard an atheist say that "if he believed what was said in the Bible, he would be willing to go on his hands and knees over broken glass to share that knowledge with the next closest person".

You'd think that would make people think twice before believing anything to such an extreme. It's doesn't though obviously and for so many reasons.

Originally posted by God_IS

Christians have a desire to introduce their fellow men to the truth and love they've found.

Yes, that's the way a cult functions.

Originally posted by God_IS

And are encouraged by Jesus through the Bible to do so.

That still doesn't address why the bible is applicable to arguments regarding god. Worse, it makes christians look stupid for buying a circular argument.

Originally posted by God_IS

The greatest truth in philosophy is "knowing that you know nothing". So what kind of knowledge is that?

That could be represented as the foundation of agnosticism. To be more direct: It is an answer regarding epistemology. The general authoritative argument "god is" sickens me based on it's presumption of authority. Hence my agnosticism.

Originally posted by God_IS

Science only offers knowledge of material things; things that have a beginning and an end, things that do not last.

What? I'll just say that you are obviously just making shit up to attempt to justify your argument. You should re-read what you wrote and re-consider the validity of your conclusion.

Originally posted by God_IS

There is no truth in these types of things, because "TRUTH" is a concept that is eternal; something either conforms to "THE TRUTH", or it doesn't.

You are rambling senselessly. There is truth in science, albeit relative. Let me ask: How is it that you come to the conclusion that "the truth is a concept that is eternal"? I mean, if there were no thinking beings the truth wouldn't be relevant would it? The truth only matters when there might be things that aren't. Dig the dichotomy. Truth is meaningless without the possibility of un-truths. Regardless of my ramblings, you've shown no basis whatsoever for your conclusions.

Originally posted by God_IS

Since the Bible proclaims that Jesus said of Himself that HE IS the TRUTH, it is a logical consequence that whoever believes it, develops a need for sharing that knowledge.

I'd agree with that statement. Another logical consequence is that I will call those people cult members.

Originally posted by God_IS

It isn't very interesting if you like it or not.

What? How can you tell me what is or is not interesting to me? Sounds like authoritative BS to me.

Originally posted by God_IS

Provided the Biblical TRUTH is false. But who will prove that?

It's not possible to prove it either way. That should be an indicator but somehow serves as fuel for the fire. Now that's interesting (in terms of its implications as to the cognitive abilities of the humans).

Originally posted by God_IS

I will not mention your flawed grammer

But asshole, you just did.

Originally posted by God_IS

If the Bible IS the 'Word of God', and God had a hand in writing it (through the physical acts of writing of humans who served Him), your question is answered.

That's a mighty tall IF there partner.

Originally posted by God_IS

How would you like to go about proving God's existence and thus creating a possibility that there is truth in that Book?

*sigh* Uhm, you just said it can't be disproved. Are you saying now it can be proved? If not, then you have no point.

Originally posted by God_IS

Logic and science aren't capable of 'proving' anything (eventually) which is proof in itself that they are flawed concepts.

Your lack of comprehension doesn't invalidate anything but that which spews from your word-hole. Logic and science prove MUCH relative truth. They provide a structure by which relative truths can be ascertained in a repeatable manner. IMO, that sure beats "god did it, now shut up and pray". Idiot.

Originally posted by God_IS

God cannot be proven by logic as we know it.

Okay, so yeah... you don't have point.

Originally posted by God_IS

It is more important to believe that God IS, than to prove it!

If your end is to collect members for your cult, yes. If you seek truth, you're on the wrong path.

 

[Jenyar]

originally posted by WesMorris
So tell me, what is the bible at all relevant to discussions of god? Why is it at all relevant outside your limited cult world-view? Just because you have to somehow justify your eronious beliefs?

Maybe the word "Word" describes the belief about what the Bible is the best. But only after you have read it and attach the same meaning to the word (excuse the clever play on words).

According to the Bible, the word of God brought creation as we know it into existence, and sustains it. As John puts it: "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the Word was God". Jesus said: "Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God". Clearly these are not "words" in the etymological sense.

The Bible contains what we know and believe about God and his plan with creation. It is a record of the continuation of God's creation and by extention God's will for his creation - in short, His Word.

This usage is not without precedence: the Ten Commandments are a translation of the Hebrew which literally says "the ten Words". As Jesus said, and the Jews believed, the commandments are the summary of everything the scriptures teach, namely 1)Love God and 2)love your neighbour. Christ is the fulfillment of God's plan for the salvation of creation, the bread (or Word) of eternal life.

From here you can extend the metaphors quite a lot. This is usually evident in the New Testament. For example, those who eat the Words of Moses, will die because it exposes and contains death, and those who eat the Word of God (the body of Christ) will live because He exposes and contains life.

So whether the Bible is the "Word of God" stands or falls with your belief in God, and everything he has revealed over the period that the Bible came into existence. If you don't believe in God, the words "In the beginning God..." never reach you.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Behold! okinrus is right!

Originally posted by okinrus

...Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church, either Jesus was wrong and so is all of christianity....

okinrus, my friend, you are starting to think rationally!

 

[wesmorris]

Originally posted by Jenyar
Maybe the word "Word" describes the belief about what the Bible is the best. But only after you have read it and attach the same meaning to the word (excuse the clever play on words).

According to the Bible, the word of God brought creation as we know it into existence, and sustains it.

So you freely admit that it's simply circular? It only applies because you accept the circular argument that the bible is the word of god because it says so in the bible? I submit that if so, you admit to promoting fallacy.

 

[Markx]

Originally posted by wesmorris
[. [/B]

Wesmorris: Nice posts, but go easy on that 'okin' kid.lol You are making him nervous.

 

[Jenyar]

Originally posted by wesmorris
So you freely admit that it's simply circular? It only applies because you accept the circular argument that the bible is the word of god because it says so in the bible? I submit that if so, you admit to promoting fallacy.

Not quite fallacy, Wes. By using a word as defined in a dictionary and at the same time attributing the meaning to it that is assigned to it in the dictionary is not a logical fallacy. In an isolated system it might have been, but in both cases it isn't:
The word in the dictionary evolved through use and attributed meaning before it was placed in the dictionary. Yet today we have to recognize the dictionary as authoritive.
Scripture as the "word" of God developed in the same way. It took on that interpretation through thousands of years of belief in God, and today we use it that way as the authoritive source of belief in God. It has been a kind of conversation - a formation of meaning. Words form similarly: meaning comes first, the word used to describe that meaning comes afterwards. Conversation is neccesarily circular - it's called a transaction of meaning.

Words by themselves have no meaning, so you need that circular process. So maybe it is a logical fallacy, but at least it's not an illogical one.

Did language develop from words, or did words develop from language? Because religion developed the same way. It's no coincidence that all cultures say writing was a gift from the gods, and that writing - words - were considered to contain mystical power.

 

[matnay]

Originally posted by Jenyar
Not quite fallacy, Wes. By using a word as defined in a dictionary and at the same time attributing the meaning to it that is assigned to it in the dictionary is not a logical fallacy. In an isolated system it might have been, but in both cases it isn't:
The word in the dictionary evolved through use and attributed meaning before it was placed in the dictionary. Yet today we have to recognize the dictionary as authoritive.
Scripture as the "word" of God developed in the same way. It took on that interpretation through thousands of years of belief in God, and today we use it that way as the authoritive source of belief in God. It has been a kind of conversation - a formation of meaning. Words form similarly: meaning comes first, the word used to describe that meaning comes afterwards. Conversation is neccesarily circular - it's called a transaction of meaning.

Words by themselves have no meaning, so you need that circular process. So maybe it is a logical fallacy, but at least it's not an illogical one.

Did language develop from words, or did words develop from language? Because religion developed the same way. It's no coincidence that all cultures say writing was a gift from the gods, and that writing - words - were considered to contain mystical power.

Great analogy. You've shown that, like a dictionary, the bible contains no real truth, but rather an arbitrary set of man-made definitions to give meaning to otherwise meaningless things. There are many different laguages out there, and many different dictionaries. No one dictionary contains the ulimate truthfull language. Just as there are many different Holy books out there, none being any more truthfull than the next, all of them equally made-up.