Why is beleif in the son important.

[Adstar]

Then whose view of God is the right one? I want to meet that person(s).

Then you are trusting in a person to guide you to your eternal destiny. Can you trust another human being with something so important? I cannot.

Let’s just say Q that there is a God. If there was a God do you think that the God of Abraham would be that God?

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[SnakeLord]

You are a victim of your own lazy self-victimization.

Yet another nincompoop trying to make out that I am to blame, that I wrote the biblical quote I pasted here. Nevermind, it is to be expected from you hypocrites.

 

[(Q)]

Then you are trusting in a person to guide you to your eternal destiny. Can you trust another human being with something so important? I cannot.

You're missing the point entirely, I'm asking whose view of god is correct, since theists disagree with one another on their own views. That would mean they are wrong about god.

Is your view the correct one?

Let’s just say Q that there is a God. If there was a God do you think that the God of Abraham would be that God?

That is exactly my question to you or anyone else who cares to answer. I have no idea.

 

[(Q)]

As far as I can see and understand, mine is right.

Then, you are the only one whose view of god is correct and everyone else is wrong.

Yet, everyone else will state vehemently that you are wrong and they are right.

I can't go beyond what I see and understand at this point in my life.

Then, maybe your view of god IS wrong.

Have you yet noticed how thinking your view of god is correct amongst everyone else is utterly ridiculous and hypocritical? Can you further deduce that if your view of god is correct and everyone else is wrong, that the entire poplulace of theists is worshipping a false god? How could you go on worshipping your god if there is even the slightest inkling that your view is wrong, that you are worshipping a false god?

Do you think you should deconvert them?

That would be great, but don't you think all other theists should be hailing you as a prophet since you alone possess the one true view of god? Why aren't you the Pope?

 

[water]

As far as I can see and understand, mine is right.

Then, you are the only one whose view of god is correct and everyone else is wrong.

Not so.
I am myself, and other people are other people. I can't always relate to their experiences of God and life, but it is from these experiences that so many different views on God spring.

Yet, everyone else will state vehemently that you are wrong and they are right.

So?

I can't go beyond what I see and understand at this point in my life.

Then, maybe your view of god IS wrong.

If the view of God were something to be attained once, and then behave as if one had arrived, then youa re most surely right.
But I don't think in terms of "I have arrived".

Have you yet noticed how thinking your view of god is correct amongst everyone else is utterly ridiculous and hypocritical?

Why? I am not forcing my view on anyone.

Can you further deduce that if your view of god is correct and everyone else is wrong, that the entire poplulace of theists is worshipping a false god?

No, not true.
People relate to God to the best of their current abilities, this relation is not a matter of an I-have-arrived logic.
That people relate to God in different ways is due to their particular life experience, which may have nothing to do with God.

How could you go on worshipping your god if there is even the slightest inkling that your view is wrong, that you are worshipping a false god?

There is only one God, so you can't miss.
But, there are several ways of worship, and these are mostly determined by the person's life experience and their current state of mind.

That would be great, but don't you think all other theists should be hailing you as a prophet since you alone possess the one true view of god?

You are forcing these conclusions.

Do you think being devoted to God is a matter of the I-have-arrived logic?

 

[Cyperium]

I just thought I would quickly point out the hypocricy and ignorance shown within this thread:



You asked if he wants someone else to decide for him, and then supplied a biblical quote which has the express goal of making a decision for him.

You probably have no idea what I'm getting at, so nevermind.

Now on to Cyperium who seems to be struggling:





Can I ask you a personal question? Have you ever read the bible? Have you ever bothered to listen to the words of your god? It would seem you haven't, and I will - due to being a nice guy - help you out a little. You ready? K..

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

There is your answer. It was staring you right in the face and yet through some strange bible blindness, you couldn't even see it. Your god has declared that the unbelievers mind has been blinded so we cannot see the light of the gospel of christ. It is meaningless, we are blind to it. You fools try to persuade us to believe, convince us of biblical reality without even noticing that god has already told you that's impossible. You can't - because we have been blinded by him.

Of course this has it's downside in that we are only non-believers because god made it that way, and wants it that way. We have absolutely no choice in the matter - and are doomed to hell because of it.

Now, shoo flea.. you're wasting your time and ours - so sayeth god.

Well, this is because you have to believe, Jesus said that He talked in "pictures" so that not all would see what is meant, those who see and yet do not see (and hear and yet do not hear). I don't think He meant only understanding, but it's rather a matter of taking in, and trusting God. Faith is from the very bottom, a rock in the foundation.

 

[Cyperium]

Cyperium and water,

I have two questions for you both.

If Jesus was an ordinary man, not son of God, no connection with the divine whatsoever, would you follow his teachings? You would not be punished for not believing in him; Jesus was just as ordinary as any man on earth, so if you wanted to ignore him you could do so without punishment. Would Jesus still be an important part of you lifes? In otherwords, as a philosopher only.

Maybe Jesus wouldn't be such a big part of my life, but his teachings would, since they have such value. I also respond emotionally to other peoples teachings, as long as I feel that they would help me in situations. Jesus being a "authority" makes Him more trustworthy than "any person" though and it can be easier to take in what He says.

Second question,

Do you realize that belief in someone gives power to that person. If you could freely give your vote to anyone who lives or has lived on earth, and that vote would give that person power to rule earth and the divine heavens' afterworld, who would that vote go to? Rembember you should not be forced by anyone saying, vote for me or you will be punished; your vote should be completely free, and all the Gods want you to freely cast your vote. Remember that whoever you give your vote to will have power over you for a long time forward, so your vote is important to you. You can also opt out and not choose a single person but rather a group of persons, or vote for a system without specifying any persons. What would you vote for?

God of course. I wouldn't trust just any person to rule over everything cause I don't know what the qualifications for such a person would be. Thus I would choose God, or Gods Son. If I'm not into sin too much...cause then there is a risk (and I do say risk) that I may choose myself and I guess the consequences would be total meaninglessness - for all, who can handle Gods power but God?

 

[SnakeLord]

Well, this is because you have to believe

Uh.. I can't - I have been blinded, so sayeth god. That was the very point I was making.

Jesus said that He talked in "pictures" so that not all would see what is meant, those who see and yet do not see (and hear and yet do not hear).

Dude, my mind has been blinded so I cannot see the light of the gospel of christ. Of course I bloody well don't see - I've been blinded. Duh.

I don't think He meant only understanding, but it's rather a matter of taking in, and trusting God.

I can't.. I've been blinded - so sayeth god.

Faith is from the very bottom, a rock in the foundation.

Blind men often trip over a rock - because they're blind and can't see it.

I have been made blind. Don't try and blame me for it.

 

[Streamline]

Just as we can believe there is a God above us, that explain our living conditions; do you think God believes in a God above Him that explains His existance?

 

[anonymous2]

Just a quick message about the "You have to choose Jesus, or Muhammad, or reject them both, but you can't accept them both" idea.. I disagree, unless one refuses to accept the idea that Jesus' true message hasn't been faithfully retained in the New Testament. To a Christian, who believes the entire NT is the "Word of God", and who believes Jesus is God incarnate, of course, that person can not accept Muhammad's message. Then again, one could say, "You have to choose God, or Jesus, or reject them both, but you can't accept them both", if you're a Jew. And that is how some Jews think today, such as one book's title "You take Jesus, I'll take God". Since the Hebrew Bible more than once states that the Jews are to keep the law "forever", or however that's translated, many Jews have a difficult time accepting the idea that they don't need to keep the Law, so to them, the NT is preaching a different God. The Christian could respond mentioning that Jeremiah passage which speaks of a "new covenant", but if you read it, it says this applies to the house of Israel and the house of Judah (looks like it might be referring to the twelve tribes to me, and were the twelve tribes even around in Jesus' day?), it says "my law" will be placed in their hearts. The Law, not another law, or another religious code. Again, I'm speaking from a possible Jewish viewpoint.

And to a Muslim, if he believes the Qur'an, and accepts the idea that Muhammad was the final prophet, then he can not believe in Guru Nanak's message, or Baha'ullah's, or Joseph Smith's, etc.

BTW, if one reads the alleged "debate" between Celsus and Origen, from what I recall, Celsus says that the mystery religions' adherents threatened eternal damnation to the Christians. So this idea was not unique to Christianity, apparently. What if one of the mystery religions was actually the true religion?

 

[beyondtimeandspace]

Nope.

 

[(Q)]

I am myself, and other people are other people. I can't always relate to their experiences of God and life, but it is from these experiences that so many different views on God spring.

But if there is ONLY ONE GOD, then each view should be identical, not different. That is the whole purpose of the concept of god, that he be recognized as ONE GOD. If the experiences, as you call them, yield different versions of god, then there cannot be ONLY ONE GOD.

Why? I am not forcing my view on anyone.

You shouldn't have to, that's not the point. Everyone should have exactly the same view of god as you, including me.

People relate to God to the best of their current abilities, this relation is not a matter of an I-have-arrived logic.

Complete nonsense, you're skirting around the issue. God is absolute and can only produce exactly the same views, regardless of ones ability. Again, that is the whole purpose of ONLY ONE GOD.

There is only one God, so you can't miss.

That contradicts everthing you've just said thus far. If you were right, everyone would know him equally and unequivocally.

But, there are several ways of worship, and these are mostly determined by the person's life experience and their current state of mind.

Worshipping has nothing to do with it. Ones view of god is all that matters.

Do you think being devoted to God is a matter of the I-have-arrived logic?

Devotion and I-have-arrived are merely excuses and have nothing to do with ones view of god.

If views of god differ from person to person, then one can only conclude that a single god does not exist or its all in ones imagination.

This is very simply, straight-forward logic that you simply cannot deny or make up excuses.

If god reveals himself to each individual, that view must be identical from person to person, or the whole concept of a single god is pointless.

 

[duendy]

hmmmmmi get the image of talking heads with stary eyes fixed on poles whilse a mischevious jester balances poles on his palms making them turn round while they continue talkin talkin.....

 

[water]

(Q),

I am myself, and other people are other people. I can't always relate to their experiences of God and life, but it is from these experiences that so many different views on God spring.

But if there is ONLY ONE GOD, then each view should be identical, not different.

If ALL people were the same, with the same knowledge and the same life experience, then what you are saying would apply.
But people are not all the same -- in that they have different life experiences (different age, culture, upbringing, IQ, EQ, ...).

That is the whole purpose of the concept of god, that he be recognized as ONE GOD.

Ideally, yes. But this cannot happen in this life, yet. Christianity, for example, holds the concept that we will know God in full only in the afterlife.

If the experiences, as you call them, yield different versions of god, then there cannot be ONLY ONE GOD.

Doesn't follow.
Different experiences yield different versions of God, because people are different from one another.

Everyone should have exactly the same view of god as you, including me.

??
What makes you think so?!

People relate to God to the best of their current abilities, this relation is not a matter of an I-have-arrived logic.

Complete nonsense, you're skirting around the issue.

We are not dead yet, we haven't completed our lives yet. So don't talk as if we already had.

God is absolute and can only produce exactly the same views, regardless of ones ability. Again, that is the whole purpose of ONLY ONE GOD.

Ys, and we are all moving towards that goal. Some slower, some faster.

There is only one God, so you can't miss.

That contradicts everthing you've just said thus far. If you were right, everyone would know him equally and unequivocally.

No, at least not yet. We have things to learn and to do.

But, there are several ways of worship, and these are mostly determined by the person's life experience and their current state of mind.

Worshipping has nothing to do with it. Ones view of god is all that matters.

You are very absolutistic and closed-minded when it comes to God.

Do you think being devoted to God is a matter of the I-have-arrived logic?

Devotion and I-have-arrived are merely excuses and have nothing to do with ones view of god.

If views of god differ from person to person, then one can only conclude that a single god does not exist or its all in ones imagination.

Views of love (or anything for that matter) differ from person to person as well. Does these mean that love (or anything) doesn't exist or is false?

If god reveals himself to each individual, that view must be identical from person to person, or the whole concept of a single god is pointless.

People are not perfect, they cannot perfectly observe objective reality for what it is. Our particularities (different life experience etc.) create a haze through which we observe objective reality, and God, and this haze distorts our view (but later knowledge can disspell (some of) this haze).

 

[(Q)]

If ALL people were the same, with the same knowledge and the same life experience, then what you are saying would apply.

Life experiences and knowledge have nothing to do with a god. God is absolute to everyone, understood by everyone equally - that is the very meaning of god. To define god any differently than what he was meant to be is an affront to his identity.

If what you say is true, then god is merely an imaginative concept from the minds of people.

Christianity, for example, holds the concept that we will know God in full only in the afterlife.

But the fact remains that so many people have so many varying views on god. Will it be such that each individual in the afterlife will stand before god and suddenly, after knowing god fully, will realize they were worshipping a false god? The answer is a definitive, yes.

Different experiences yield different versions of God, because people are different from one another.

Then clearly, those experiences had nothing to do with god, but had everything to do with ones assumption that their experience was with god. God would had to have revealed himself differently to each individual if each individuals view was different.

Does an apple look any different to you than me or anyone else?

You are very absolutistic and closed-minded when it comes to God

That's a poor way of saying you can't respond with an intelligent answer.

People are not perfect, they cannot perfectly observe objective reality for what it is.

We know that relates to you, but not to everyone. Reality, on the other hand, IS observed for what it is, all that is required is thinking and understanding.

Our particularities (different life experience etc.) create a haze through which we observe objective reality, and God, and this haze distorts our view (but later knowledge can disspell (some of) this haze).

The haze you speak is religion. Without it, nothing would distort your view, barring any mental defects.

The point that I am trying to make is that if a god does in fact reveal himself to someone, it would absolute, with perfect clarity, that everyone else could understand and agree.

You are stating that it is not god who reveals himself to anyone, but it is ones life experiences that cause them to believe in a god. What happened to god?

Once can only conclude that god never revealed himself at all, and that the person only assumed a god, based on some life experience. That is egotistical.

 

[Adstar]

You're missing the point entirely, I'm asking whose view of god is correct, since theists disagree with one another on their own views. That would mean they are wrong about god.

Is your view the correct one?

You ask me to answer a question that you already know my answer to. This lead me to wonder why an athiest would ask such a question and sure enough you reveled it when another thiest answered.

As far as I can see and understand, mine is right.

Then, you are the only one whose view of god is correct and everyone else is wrong.

Yet, everyone else will state vehemently that you are wrong and they are right.

I can't go beyond what I see and understand at this point in my life.

Then, maybe your view of god IS wrong.

Have you yet noticed how thinking your view of god is correct amongst everyone else is utterly ridiculous and hypocritical? Can you further deduce that if your view of god is correct and everyone else is wrong, that the entire poplulace of theists is worshipping a false god? How could you go on worshipping your god if there is even the slightest inkling that your view is wrong, that you are worshipping a false god?

Do you think you should deconvert them?

That would be great, but don't you think all other theists should be hailing you as a prophet since you alone possess the one true view of god? Why aren't you the Pope?

Just because the number of people who believe in the true God is very small does not mean that the God they worship does not exist. God is not created by opinion polls or popularity votes. Nor does God change because someone creates a false image of Him and millions and billions of people fall for the deception.



Matthew 7
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Jesus said that few would find salvation. That many would go the way of destruction. Does that make God a failure? Does that make Him disappear?
Yes of course most people do not follow the will of the God of Abraham and yes most people who do acknowledge the God of Abraham are on their way to destruction. So what? This fact neither confirms nor debunks the existence of the God of Abraham.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Just as we can believe there is a God above us, that explain our living conditions; do you think God believes in a God above Him that explains His existance?

No.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[(Q)]

You ask me to answer a question that you already know my answer to.

Sorry, I can't read your mind, you'll need to answer the question.

Just because the number of people who believe in the true God is very small does not mean that the God they worship does not exist.

Who decides which is the one true god, you? I've witnessed that everyone believes in the one true god. If they didn't, they wouldn't believe, would they?

Muslims believe in a one true god, Allah. Are they wrong?

Jesus said that few would find salvation. That many would go the way of destruction. Does that make God a failure?

Absolutely! He failed miserably.

Does that make Him disappear?

When did he actually appear? Did you see him?

Yes of course most people do not follow the will of the God of Abraham and yes most people who do acknowledge the God of Abraham are on their way to destruction. So what? This fact neither confirms nor debunks the existence of the God of Abraham.

Good point. Disagreeable amongst those who acknowlege god but are on their way to destruction, of course.

Would that include you?

 

[Cyperium]

Muslims believe in a one true god, Allah. Are they wrong?

No, we only have different perspective, where they see Jesus as a prophet, etc. Allah = God, it's their word for "God" as I have heard.

 

[(Q)]

Why would they have a different perspective on something so absolute as a god? And why would they disagree so vehemently with your perspective?

Wouldn't a god reveal himself the same to everyone?