Why is beleif in the son important.

[spidergoat]

Ahhh, but you (and the orthodoxy) have made some false presumptions, namely that Jesus can't be ordinary and have a connection with the devine. The devine and the ordinary are the same. ...And the sons of God are anyone that realizes their own nature, which is also devine nature. The punishment from ignoring Jesus' advice won't be handed out by him, but is inherent in life. We are always punished by our lack of wisdom. That's why it's called wisdom.

 

[Streamline]

... The punishment from ignoring Jesus' advice won't be handed out by him, but is inherent in life. We are always punished by our lack of wisdom. That's why it's called wisdom.

This is an answer to the original question, thank you. I am not saying that it is necessarily The Correct Answer, just saying it is one of many.

How is this punishment inherent in life?

It can be said that one is punished for lack of wisdom, but what exactly makes not following Jesus' advice lack of wisdom. To me, Jesus' advice of believing in him is just a command, not necessarily wisdom, since he does not motivate it. I am not saying it is not wisdom, I am just saying it does not convince me as wisdom since there is no motivation for it.

 

[jayleew]

Cyperium and water,

I have two questions for you both.

If Jesus was an ordinary man, not son of God, no connection with the divine whatsoever, would you follow his teachings? You would not be punished for not believing in him; Jesus was just as ordinary as any man on earth, so if you wanted to ignore him you could do so without punishment. Would Jesus still be an important part of you lifes? In otherwords, as a philosopher only.

I know you are talking to Cyperium and water, but I'd like to answer:

I am too weak to believe without a sign (Jesus Christ). Sadly, without the death and ressurection I would just be a gentile. I was not brought up in the Jewish faith, so I would not have a leg to stand on and I would have not been able to look past the scientific evidence. If Jesus was not the son of God, the Christian faith would not be in existence and I would be agnostic.

Second question,

Do you realize that belief in someone gives power to that person. If you could freely give your vote to anyone who lives or has lived on earth, and that vote would give that person power to rule earth and the divine heavens' afterworld, who would that vote go to? Rembember you should not be forced by anyone saying, vote for me or you will be punished; your vote should be completely free, and all the Gods want you to freely cast your vote. Remember that whoever you give your vote to will have power over you for a long time forward, so your vote is important to you. You can also opt out and not choose a single person but rather a group of persons, or vote for a system without specifying any persons. What would you vote for?

Why do you perceive the choice like that? God is not threatening anyone! We, and the things we do, condemn ourselves by our own design. It is when we give the design up, we are freed from ourselves and condemnation. He is a father who is telling you that if you make the wrong choice in life you will suffer the consequences that you yourself sow. Jesus said that if you don't vote for him, you will die because he cannot help you if you don't vote for him. If I did not vote for the person who does good for my life, then I condemn myself to the misery of another ruler. You have a friend in high places, by not supporting the friend, you are missing out on benefits and promises. He promises that if you vote for him, you will make it to heaven.

What good is followers who follow you out of fear? I only fear myself. God has no choice, for the sake of the righteous and unrighteous, but to seperate sinful from righteousness and not subject the righteous to sinful and the sinful to righteousness, because they are at odds. They must be seperated if God is to be merciful to them both, and he has a place prepared for the righteous and sinful. If God ever actually punishes you, it is out of love and only for those that are his children. If you feel that it is punishment for your sins, then by what right or desire do you have to be with the righteous? If you feel that it is punishment, then be free from it. Believe in God, or don't believe in God. There is no punishment for the nonbelievers, only judgement. And if you don't believe in God or don't want anything to do with God, then you will have your every desire fullfilled.

As far as the lake of fire, scripture says it was not made for humans, but for Satan. But, sin is sin, and what makes you better than Satan if you accept your sin and despise God for passing judgement? So non believers are judged and the unrighteous will be sent to the unrighteous. If you enjoy an unrighteous decent life, is that not where you would want to be?

Only if you desire righteousness, but are unrighteous does judgement become a punishment in one's mind and torment you. So, if you truly think that God is threatening you with punishment for not believing in him, then be free from sin or embrace it. Then, the choice will cease to be a punishment in your mind. Just remember that scripture says that God does not wish that anyone would pass away from his sight forever.

 

[spidergoat]

My interpretation is that Jesus instructed us to look into our own nature, as opposed to being preoccupied by the excessive drinking, sex, warfare, and the thousands of other human distractions (sin), all of which punish us by not really satisfying our souls. I don't think his message was simply to believe in his divinity, but believe that he had a profound experience to share, much like other reclusive and spiritually inclined masters. Note that even this would only be a first step. I think the good news (gospel) is that astounding revelations can happen in this lifetime, that divinity is not some lofty ideal, but here and now; that the ordinary is actually extraordinary, if only we could see it as it really is.

The advice to become seekers doesn't necessarily have to come from him, since any such efforts have a universal nature. That is why he said that no one comes to the father but through me. All phenomenon that can be called enlightenment have the same qualities that Jesus experienced. Any enlightened person would be have to follow in his footsteps. Of course, this is now considered an unorthodox opinion, because those that thought otherwise saw to it that this view was supressed. At one time, the view that all that was required was to espouse a creed (as is commonly the case now) were considered the heretics. I guess whoever is in charge makes the rules.

 

[water]

(Q),

Why do you want to know whose view of God is correct?

Don't you?

Yes, but I don't see the whole thing as a contest, or as a fight between who is right and who is wrong.

And what makes you assume that a person can indeed be in possession of such a view?

Theists.

Then you have a great faith that theists are what they say! I don't think it is wise to just take any theist for his word.


Also, listen to Spidergoat. He makes very good points.


* * *


SnakeLord,

You asked if he wants someone else to decide for him, and then supplied a biblical quote which has the express goal of making a decision for him.

Eh. Natasha Bedingfield is -- the Bible now ...?

There is your answer. It was staring you right in the face and yet through some strange bible blindness, you couldn't even see it. Your god has declared that the unbelievers mind has been blinded so we cannot see the light of the gospel of christ. It is meaningless, we are blind to it. You fools try to persuade us to believe, convince us of biblical reality without even noticing that god has already told you that's impossible. You can't - because we have been blinded by him.

...

You are a victim of your own lazy self-victimization.



* * *


Streamline,


It looks like you think I am a Christian. I'm not a Christian.

If Jesus was an ordinary man, not son of God, no connection with the divine whatsoever, would you follow his teachings?

I don't "follow Jesus' teachings" because they are Jesus' teachings; I happen to follow some of them because they seem wise to me. That they are Jesus', doesn't matter to me.

You would not be punished for not believing in him; Jesus was just as ordinary as any man on earth, so if you wanted to ignore him you could do so without punishment. Would Jesus still be an important part of you lifes? In otherwords, as a philosopher only.

Wisdom is wisdom, regardless who incites it.
I don't need someone to tell me "You see, this is wisdom, what I am telling you" and then think his words to be wisdom just because he said so.

Do you realize that belief in someone gives power to that person. If you could freely give your vote to anyone who lives or has lived on earth, and that vote would give that person power to rule earth and the divine heavens' afterworld, who would that vote go to? Rembember you should not be forced by anyone saying, vote for me or you will be punished; your vote should be completely free, and all the Gods want you to freely cast your vote. Remember that whoever you give your vote to will have power over you for a long time forward, so your vote is important to you. You can also opt out and not choose a single person but rather a group of persons, or vote for a system without specifying any persons. What would you vote for?

God.


* * *

The punishment from ignoring Jesus' advice won't be handed out by him, but is inherent in life.

We are always punished by our lack of wisdom. That's why it's called wisdom.

Exactly.

 

[water]

How is this punishment inherent in life?

If you eat too much, you get fat and ill in many ways.

If you indulge in thinking violent thoughts, and acting on them, this will become your habit, your mode of being.

Etc.
Such is the inherent punishment for sin.

 

[spidergoat]

Or, we are punished by our sins, rather than for them.

 

[duendy]

the 'son' has many associations mythologically speaking.

'we' areused to reading myth literally. hence usually the judaic christian version of the 'son'--as ritten about in the Bible is taken literally

but--as said, 'son' means other stuff that is not immeditaely noticeable from the lieralist reading

example, 'son' means SUN, ans pre-patriarchy 'SON OF THE GODDESS'...which means ature, the psychedelic mushroom, and the experiece of the 'risen son'--ie., the ecstaic reliious experience of deep interelationship with wild Nature

what patriarchy does is take 'son' away from Nature andplaces him at the 'right hand of God' 'up there'...and then is the authority one must believe in this literalist version..or else!...what that version means is abiding patriarchal autority of the Church

but a deeper meaning is that if one doesn't become initiated in the 'mysteries'--as interpreated by the initiats of the early christin religion, then one is not really understanding the essence

deeper than that is meaning that unless one understands their deep connection with the Goddess, ie., Nature, then one can only create a supreme mess

 

[spidergoat]

I thought that "son of" basically meant "of the same nature as...".

Naturally, Jesus was limited by the vocabulary and culture of the times.

 

[water]

Or, we are punished by our sins, rather than for them.

Most definitely. It is by sin, that our minds, hearts and bodies become defiled.

It is just that some sins seem to take a long time to "show an effect".

 

[(Q)]

Yes, but I don't see the whole thing as a contest, or as a fight between who is right and who is wrong.

Who said anything about a contest? If I were you, or any other theist, I would want to make damn sure my faith based reasoning was right? Don't you care if yours is perhaps wrong?

Then you have a great faith that theists are what they say! I don't think it is wise to just take any theist for his word.

I don't take theists for their word when it comes to their beliefs - I know they're wrong.

 

[duendy]

I thought that "son of" basically meant "of the same nature as...".

Naturally, Jesus was limited by the vocabulary and culture of the times.

limited as in when one only thinks the myth is LITERAL....

HERES A TASTE OF LOOKING AT DEEPER MEANINGS:

"The Panther

In the Jewish Talmud, Jesus is somtimes referred to as Bar Pandera', "Son of (the) Panther"...."(The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, John M.Allegro....author goes onto explain that that reference, altough recorded, its real meaning has been suppressed and forgotten

through etymological investigation it appears it is meaning son of sacred mushroom, the panther reference referring to the 'spotted' hallucinogenic mshroom, Fly Agaric!

now deeper than THAT, we have to understand that the christian mystical clt had usurped the much more ancient Goddess religion of te EARTH.....OKAY

so see what happens. the christians emphasize the sacred psychedelic mushroom as originating from 'God'--from his sacred sperm from on high. so what have they done? they have divided Nature, which has always been associated with rthe Goddess--as in Mpother Earth.....? and thus 'son' now means 'of the nature of' the patriarchal 'god' who is TRANSCENDENT. 'ABOVE' Nature......from there are dreams t escape ature to 'heaven' to be with the 'Father' and/or to 'spiritualize' Nature.

This idea is vastly different than undwrstanding thaty Nature is SACRED AS IT IS

 

[Streamline]

If you eat too much, you get fat and ill in many ways.

If you indulge in thinking violent thoughts, and acting on them, this will become your habit, your mode of being.

Etc.
Such is the inherent punishment for sin.

Sorry, I was not refering to Jesus' advice in general, but rather the specific advice of beleiving in him.
How can not following believing Jesus' advice of not beleiving in him have a punishment that is inherent in life.

 

[water]

(Q),

Who said anything about a contest? If I were you, or any other theist, I would want to make damn sure my faith based reasoning was right? Don't you care if yours is perhaps wrong?

As far as I can see and understand, mine is right.
I can't go beyond what I see and understand at this point in my life.

I don't take theists for their word when it comes to their beliefs - I know they're wrong.

Then why are you discussing with them? Do you think you should deconvert them?

 

[water]

Sorry, I was not refering to Jesus' advice in general, but rather the specific advice of beleiving in him.
How can not following believing Jesus' advice of not beleiving in him have a punishment that is inherent in life.

Try with hating everyone and being generally unkind to people, for starters.
You'll see what happens.

 

[duendy]

accchhggg you literalists!...if the truth smashed you in the face you wouldn't blink

you go round nnd round and round in the confines of your limited conceptions....a viscious circle indeedo

 

[geeser]

Eh. Natasha Bedingfield is -- the Bible now ...?

I take issue with this, it's got to be Josh Stone.

 

[Adstar]

Well if both religions are the true word of God, then since we cannot believe in both religions, those that belive in Islam will be sent to hell becuase they do not believe in Jesus, those that believe in Christianity will be sent to hell because they do not belive in Muhammed, and those that do not believe in either religion is sent to hell as well since they do not believe in Jeses and since they do not believe in Muhammed.

All are sent to hell.

Does this conclution not bother you?

You have a very strange sense of logic. Why would God give a message through Jesus and then 600 odd years later send muhammed along saying that the message of Jesus was a lie? Either The Message of Jesus is right and muhammed is wrong or muhammed is right and Jesus is wrong. Of cource if they are both false this discussion is vain.

If one reads the Message of Jesus and then reads the message of muhammed it is impossible to believe in both. it is only possible to accept one and reject the other OR reject both.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Isn't it amazing that an anti-christian can pick out one verse as if they are well read in the bible like this:

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

There is your answer. It was staring you right in the face and yet through some strange bible blindness, you couldn't even see it. Your god has declared that the unbelievers mind has been blinded so we cannot see the light of the gospel of christ. It is meaningless, we are blind to it. You fools try to persuade us to believe, convince us of biblical reality without even noticing that god has already told you that's impossible. You can't - because we have been blinded by him.

And in the same post identify a whole passage of righting by Natasha Bedingfield as being a bible scriptures???????????

Reaching for something in the distance
So close you can almost taste it
Release your inner visions
Feel the rain on your skin
No one else can feel it for you
Only you can let it in
No one else, no one else
Can speak the words on your lips
Drench yourself in words unspoken
Live your life with arms wide open
Today is where your book begins

Feel the rain on your skin
No one else can feel it for you
Only you can let it in
No one else, no one else
Can speak the words on your lips
Drench yourself in words unspoken
Live your life with arms wide open
Today is where your book begins
The rest is still unwritten
The rest is still unwritten
The rest is still unwritten

You asked if he wants someone else to decide for him, and then supplied a biblical quote which has the express goal of making a decision for him.

You probably have no idea what I'm getting at, so nevermind.

Looks like someone does not know what they are talking about. Thats for sure.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

steamline

Do you realize that belief in someone gives power to that person. If you could freely give your vote to anyone who lives or has lived on earth, and that vote would give that person power to rule earth and the divine heavens' afterworld, who would that vote go to? Rembember you should not be forced by anyone saying, vote for me or you will be punished; your vote should be completely free, and all the Gods want you to freely cast your vote. Remember that whoever you give your vote to will have power over you for a long time forward, so your vote is important to you. You can also opt out and not choose a single person but rather a group of persons, or vote for a system without specifying any persons. What would you vote for?

Look around you streamline people have made their free will decision to reject Jesus. The fact or otherwise of eternal punishment has no practical effect on their true decision. Fear of God can only cause one to consider God. But in the end if one disagrees with the will of God then disbelief will cause the fear of retribution to disappear quickly. But people who believe in God end up not having any fear of retribution, therefore the punishment for rejecting Jesus has no practical affect on ones decision to either accept or reject Him.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days