Voodoo Child
Registered Senior Member
James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
The bible(and christians) seems to confused about this, how should I be saved from the firey cauldrons of hell?
Why I decided to believe
- Thread starter CounslerCoffee
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James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
The bible(and christians) seems to confused about this, how should I be saved from the firey cauldrons of hell?
pumpkinsaren'torange
Registered Senior Member
how?
by simply believing that Christ died for your sins. having faith.
easy, huh?? no good works will get you into heaven. it's nice to do good deeds...but, they will not gain you entrance.
by simply believing that Christ died for your sins. having faith.
easy, huh?? no good works will get you into heaven. it's nice to do good deeds...but, they will not gain you entrance.
Voodoo Child
Registered Senior Member
And James 2:24?
the first post listed some points going against for instance the theory of evolution.
All the objections were (probably) based on christian views. As all might be aware christianity isn't even the most widespread religion in the world. I find this disturbing. A certain christian population is trying to influence the teaching and acceptance of science, although they are clearly not part of the scientific community and they neglect all other religions at the same time.
Maybe christianity is your personal choice, but if you want to discuss the merits of religion versus science one might want to include all forms of religion.
but i'm probably saying something stupid.
All the objections were (probably) based on christian views. As all might be aware christianity isn't even the most widespread religion in the world. I find this disturbing. A certain christian population is trying to influence the teaching and acceptance of science, although they are clearly not part of the scientific community and they neglect all other religions at the same time.
Maybe christianity is your personal choice, but if you want to discuss the merits of religion versus science one might want to include all forms of religion.
but i'm probably saying something stupid.
And James 2:24?
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When one is evaluating a singular passage derived from the Bible, one must always remember to examine the context. God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. James 2 is talking about those who "say" that they have faith but have no works. Therefore, people cannot tell if they are true believers or not, because there is no fruit. That kind of a faith is useless and is not a saving faith. True faith results in true works. In Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus was speaking to a Lawyer who was self-righteous since he wanted to put Jesus to the test (Luke 10:25). He asked what he must do in order to obtain eternal life and Jesus responded with the requirements of keeping the commandments. If a person keeps all of the commandments, it would seem that they could obtain eternal life. However, nobody can keep all of the commandments. Therefore, Jesus' comments to this man show this man that justification can only be by faith since no one can keep all of the commandments. This is why it says in Eph. 2:8 that we are saved by grace to faith. Also, Romans 3:20,28 and Galatians 2:16 tells us that no one is justified in this site of God by the law; that is, by the works that he can do.
There is no contradiction at all when we examine the contexts. We are justified by faith but that faith must be alive (James 2). The Law cannot save us because we are incapable of keeping it (Matthew 19:16-17). Therefore, salvation is by faith through grace.
Remeber, obedience FOLLOWS salvation.
><>
----------------------
When one is evaluating a singular passage derived from the Bible, one must always remember to examine the context. God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. James 2 is talking about those who "say" that they have faith but have no works. Therefore, people cannot tell if they are true believers or not, because there is no fruit. That kind of a faith is useless and is not a saving faith. True faith results in true works. In Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus was speaking to a Lawyer who was self-righteous since he wanted to put Jesus to the test (Luke 10:25). He asked what he must do in order to obtain eternal life and Jesus responded with the requirements of keeping the commandments. If a person keeps all of the commandments, it would seem that they could obtain eternal life. However, nobody can keep all of the commandments. Therefore, Jesus' comments to this man show this man that justification can only be by faith since no one can keep all of the commandments. This is why it says in Eph. 2:8 that we are saved by grace to faith. Also, Romans 3:20,28 and Galatians 2:16 tells us that no one is justified in this site of God by the law; that is, by the works that he can do.
There is no contradiction at all when we examine the contexts. We are justified by faith but that faith must be alive (James 2). The Law cannot save us because we are incapable of keeping it (Matthew 19:16-17). Therefore, salvation is by faith through grace.
Remeber, obedience FOLLOWS salvation.
><>
OldSchoolThinker
Registered Senior Member
?
Who has the right to say one religion is better than another
because one emphasizes certain things that the other doesn't?
Who has the right to judge or condemn someone because they believe in something different. Who are you to say that your religion is true and the others false? No one has that right.
Who has the right to say one religion is better than another
because one emphasizes certain things that the other doesn't?
Who has the right to judge or condemn someone because they believe in something different. Who are you to say that your religion is true and the others false? No one has that right.
"Who has the right to say one religion is better than another...."
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Jesus did, in the New Testament. A Christian is commanded by Jesus in the Bible to guide those who are lost or misled to salvation through faith in Him. Any religions that deviate from the the teachings of Jesus and the Bible are in error, according to God. Period.
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Jesus did, in the New Testament. A Christian is commanded by Jesus in the Bible to guide those who are lost or misled to salvation through faith in Him. Any religions that deviate from the the teachings of Jesus and the Bible are in error, according to God. Period.
><>
No, according to the new testament. Which is only a book. Period.
OldSchoolThinker,
God does, my son. And if you don't follow His word -no matter how vague or contradicting- you will burn in Hell.
Which religion is right? You silly, silly atheist/agnostic. If you read the Bible, it will become clear to you which branch of Christianity is following His word most accurately. If you choose the wrong one, though, you will burn in hell. God made the Bible confusing to make sure heaven doesn't get overcrowded, like China. You didn't know that? That's because I made it up.
Now go! Find the correct religion!
No pressure, though. Your decision will either lead you to eternal salvation or fiery damnation.
Good luck!
God does, my son. And if you don't follow His word -no matter how vague or contradicting- you will burn in Hell.
Which religion is right? You silly, silly atheist/agnostic. If you read the Bible, it will become clear to you which branch of Christianity is following His word most accurately. If you choose the wrong one, though, you will burn in hell. God made the Bible confusing to make sure heaven doesn't get overcrowded, like China. You didn't know that? That's because I made it up.
Now go! Find the correct religion!
No pressure, though. Your decision will either lead you to eternal salvation or fiery damnation.
Good luck!
Voodoo Child
Registered Senior Member
You should probably acknowledge http://www.carm.org/diff/Eph2_8.htm as the source
The thing that is unconvincing about that is that Galatians, Romans and Ephesians is that they all say that works are not sufficient, not that they are unnecessary. Carm's interpretation is dodgy; they seem to hammer the bible into their preconceptions. They talk about "kinds" of faith, but the bible does not. It is not merely commenting on those that <i>say</i> they have faith, but also comment on whether faith alone can save:
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Thus, you need both.
Think of it this way: When you pick up a tray by one end, the other end remains behind. Also, you don't grab one handle with both hands. You have two hands, one purpose: to use the tray. Therefore you pick it up by holding on to both sides. Only then can you carry something on it.
God gave us both faith and the ability to do good ("bear fruit") for a reason: so that we live the lives He gave us and intended for us. Faith without deeds is empty. Deeds without faith are empty.
Just as Jesus embodied, initiated and illustrated faith by miracles and other deeds, and carries us in it, so must we who carry him in our faith illustrate it to the world.
God's kingdom is near.
God gave us both faith and the ability to do good ("bear fruit") for a reason: so that we live the lives He gave us and intended for us. Faith without deeds is empty. Deeds without faith are empty.
Just as Jesus embodied, initiated and illustrated faith by miracles and other deeds, and carries us in it, so must we who carry him in our faith illustrate it to the world.
God's kingdom is near.
"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"
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Once again, look at the context. Obedience FOLLOWS salvation. Since we are saved by grace alone (Romans 5:1) through our faith in Him, THEN we do things that are required of those who are saved. Also, carm.org is an excellent source for Christians, and according to the appertaining disclaimer, one does not need to cite as a source.
BTW, I have seen a significant amount of information quoted here from talkorigins.com and infidels.org with no references.
><>
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Once again, look at the context. Obedience FOLLOWS salvation. Since we are saved by grace alone (Romans 5:1) through our faith in Him, THEN we do things that are required of those who are saved. Also, carm.org is an excellent source for Christians, and according to the appertaining disclaimer, one does not need to cite as a source.
BTW, I have seen a significant amount of information quoted here from talkorigins.com and infidels.org with no references.
><>
OldSchoolThinker
Registered Senior Member
assumption
First of all it was SILLY of you to assume based on
my passage that I was an atheist/agnostic. Which I am not.
I was under the assumption that Christians dont JUDGE people.
Second, it is pointless to use the salvation or damnation argument against someone who doesn't believe in Heaven or Hell.
Third, I dont believe any religion should give you the "our way, or the highway mentality" to gain followers. That mentality plays on weak minded individuals. And as you can see, I'm not one to be weak-minded.
Furthermore, what is a "correct" religion anyway? Who determines that? The believers of each religion. If there was
one correct religion, one way to truth, one path to enlightment, then there would not be so many different religious teachings around the world. Saying that your religion is one "true" religion shows arrogance and ignorance. It is through that same mentality that has been responsible for the deaths of millions of people in history. The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and the european colonization of other countries killing, destroying the native beliefs of people by people who claimed to be christians is the most contradictory thing I've ever heard.
Lastly, if you havent done your research, Christianity recieved the old testement from Judaism, which is older than Christianity. Also a lot of the ceremonies and symbolism in Christianity was derived from Egyptian cults, Zorastaism, and Roman Mithraism with a little of astrology thrown in. If you dont believe me, look it up.
So dont make an assumption about me. Dont judge what I believe in without actually knowing me, k. Cause thats not the Christian way.
Cheers
First of all it was SILLY of you to assume based on
my passage that I was an atheist/agnostic. Which I am not.
I was under the assumption that Christians dont JUDGE people.
Second, it is pointless to use the salvation or damnation argument against someone who doesn't believe in Heaven or Hell.
Third, I dont believe any religion should give you the "our way, or the highway mentality" to gain followers. That mentality plays on weak minded individuals. And as you can see, I'm not one to be weak-minded.
Furthermore, what is a "correct" religion anyway? Who determines that? The believers of each religion. If there was
one correct religion, one way to truth, one path to enlightment, then there would not be so many different religious teachings around the world. Saying that your religion is one "true" religion shows arrogance and ignorance. It is through that same mentality that has been responsible for the deaths of millions of people in history. The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and the european colonization of other countries killing, destroying the native beliefs of people by people who claimed to be christians is the most contradictory thing I've ever heard.
Lastly, if you havent done your research, Christianity recieved the old testement from Judaism, which is older than Christianity. Also a lot of the ceremonies and symbolism in Christianity was derived from Egyptian cults, Zorastaism, and Roman Mithraism with a little of astrology thrown in. If you dont believe me, look it up.
So dont make an assumption about me. Dont judge what I believe in without actually knowing me, k. Cause thats not the Christian way.
Cheers
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LIGHTBEING
Registered Senior Member
I thought VAKEMP was joking?
OldSchoolThinker,
I'm not Christian. I was simply pointing out the paradox that you see for yourself.
God does...according to theists.
According to some posters here, that is what religion is all about.
I know. Isn't it strange how differently the Jews interpret the Bible compared to Christians? They don't believe Jesus is a God either.
Strange how so many people can misinterpret the Bible. Maybe God should've been a little more clear in His messages...
OldSchoolThinker
Registered Senior Member
Originally posted by VAKEMP
OldSchoolThinker,
I'm not Christian. I was simply pointing out the paradox that you see for yourself.
God does...according to theists.
According to some posters here, that is what religion is all about.
I know. Isn't it strange how differently the Jews interpret the Bible compared to Christians? They don't believe Jesus is a God either.
Strange how so many people can misinterpret the Bible. Maybe God should've been a little more clear in His messages...
oops. I thought you were one of those people. Thanks though.
OldSchoolThinker
Registered Senior Member
Judaism does interpret the Bible differently. Its interesting. What I'm trying to figure is how did Jesus turn from a messaih who is prophetized to lead the oppressed Jews to freedom into a God.
Its funny how the Jews have been oppressed by "Christians" for centuries because of this one belief. Dont they realize that The OT is the five books of Moses( the Torah). The New Testement didnt come until centuries later. It was written by the Christians to justify Jesus as a Living God.
Religion is so taboo to people. When people debate over it, emotions flare. People are soooo scared to question their beliefs because of conditioned fears that say you can't question such-and-such a thing. It's sad how a lot of individuals who are Christian( I know some) are brainwashed into believing all this stuff without even thinking about it and questioning in their minds. What's the point in having a brain? You might as well hook them up to Biblical reciting machine or something. Its Crazy.
Its funny how the Jews have been oppressed by "Christians" for centuries because of this one belief. Dont they realize that The OT is the five books of Moses( the Torah). The New Testement didnt come until centuries later. It was written by the Christians to justify Jesus as a Living God.
Religion is so taboo to people. When people debate over it, emotions flare. People are soooo scared to question their beliefs because of conditioned fears that say you can't question such-and-such a thing. It's sad how a lot of individuals who are Christian( I know some) are brainwashed into believing all this stuff without even thinking about it and questioning in their minds. What's the point in having a brain? You might as well hook them up to Biblical reciting machine or something. Its Crazy.
OldSchoolThinker
Registered Senior Member
Originally posted by VAKEMP
LIGHTBEING,
Good eye!
Ok I see the joke. I guess I was so used to people coming at me like that I became blind to the humor. But that joke was funny as Hell( pun intended). Its good to have some who's own the same page.
OldSchoolThinker,
I've read a little bit of the Torah, which is basically the Old Testament like you stated earlier. I've also looked on several Jewish websites, and have come to the conclusion that Judaism has a more positive perception of religion and God than Christianity. I think I remember reading somewhere that Jews don't believe in heaven and hell...just a place closer or farther away from God based on your actions (correct me if I'm wrong...I am no expert).
Now, someone on another thread is telling me about the Quran, and how the Torah, Bible, and Quran are all connected to the same God. According to this person, each is written by prophets, when God has decided some clarification is necessary. With that information, how can I discount the possibility that the Book of Mormon is also the word of God, revised and updated?
So many questions, so many different answers! I could literally spend a lifetime researching all of this, just to end up no more certain than I began!
Understandable. Once in a while I'll post something irrational like that...to try and see where people like whatsupyall are coming from.
It can be hard for people to question their family's values. What makes it worse is the lack of education regarding religion. I can admit I suffer from religious ignorance. They don't teach about religion, and the various types. You have to learn by going to church...and you know a church isn't going to claim they aren't following the word of God. So, most people just fall in line with what the rest of their neighborhood/family believes.
I've read a little bit of the Torah, which is basically the Old Testament like you stated earlier. I've also looked on several Jewish websites, and have come to the conclusion that Judaism has a more positive perception of religion and God than Christianity. I think I remember reading somewhere that Jews don't believe in heaven and hell...just a place closer or farther away from God based on your actions (correct me if I'm wrong...I am no expert).
Now, someone on another thread is telling me about the Quran, and how the Torah, Bible, and Quran are all connected to the same God. According to this person, each is written by prophets, when God has decided some clarification is necessary. With that information, how can I discount the possibility that the Book of Mormon is also the word of God, revised and updated?
So many questions, so many different answers! I could literally spend a lifetime researching all of this, just to end up no more certain than I began!