Why God doesn't exist

[Diogenes' Dog]

Your perspective restraining reality blended with your imagination is in fine shape today Diogenes' Dog.

LOL! Well, thank you earth... I'll take that as a compliment!!

I would agree that it was unsurprising it showed no effect. It never does show an effect. You can ask the quarter million theists who prayed to be saved from a tsunami, if they weren't all dead, that is.
[...] Was the tsunami an "unnatural condition" too?

Ah, a sensible question (Q)! I suspect some had miraculous escapes while many other people died. That does not mean their prayers or those people who died or of their relatives went unanswered.

The answer to prayer is not always to escape a situation, sometimes it is to give us the strength to face it, and the existenial truths of our condition i.e. that we all are born, suffer and die. Many religions view physical reality as just a part of our total existence, and death a rite of passage.

The classic case is Biblical. Jesus prayed to be spared crucifixion - was he spared? NO! Was his prayer answered - yes, because it gave him the courage he needed to go through with it. Had he not, we would all be Mithrains or Zoroastreans or something today - and no-one would have heard of Jesus.

For me, a change in perspective is usually far more important than a change in actual circumstance.

What you have (and Blake) is a limited understanding of the world around you and the fascination with magic and the mysterious and mystical.

We all have a limited understanding of the world. That's why prayer helps to gain a new perspective. It's less about changing the world, more changing our perspective on the world.

Impossible. You have unshakable beliefs in the invisible and undetectable. There is no open mind, if a mind, at all.

Au contraire (Q). I have a definite view, but it's open to change. I really appreciate a well argued but contrary point of view - we all only have aspects of the whole truth. What about you?

So, a quarter of a million unanswered prayers to live IS a coincidence?

Who says they are unanswered? I think every prayer gets an answer, if the recipient is willing to hear it. There's not a single predictable answer though!

 

[lightgigantic]

You said it, the tools they use.

tools they have been fine tuning for at least the past few thousand years or so .....

 

[lightgigantic]

If feeding the world's population is not your number one priority then you have your priorities in the wrong place. Survival of the species is the real driver on this planet and not religious Wizardry.

the simple fact is that agricultural viability takes the back seat in terms of world politics. The world is in want not of resources but resource management.

I am bringing to your attention that addressing the issue of world hunger divorced from the issue of politics is like something off with the fairies ...

 

[earth]

the simple fact is that agricultural viability takes the back seat in terms of world politics. The world is in want not of resources but resource management.

I am bringing to your attention that addressing the issue of world hunger divorced from the issue of politics is like something off with the fairies ...

It began discussing prayer and the fact it hasn't done anything for the plight of the poor in the previous thousands of years. Praying doesn't feed people and is simply religious Wizardry without results.

 

[earth]

tools they have been fine tuning for at least the past few thousand years or so .....

Religion's tools have been refined for snake oil peddlers to use.

An example of a snake oil peddler using those refined tools is predicting the future......

Is Pat Robertson making a liar out of God or is God making a liar out of Pat Robertson?
Pat Robertson calls God a liar, indirectly. Understand there is no such thing as a chrystal ball, not even when using advanced alien technology.

Hands off the Flim Flam Man and his religion is the notion.


I’ve heard Pat Robertson tell his viewers ‘God will heal you all you have to do is ask him”. Then Pat goes running off to the Doctor when he has aliments.

Prayer isn't working, not even for a man of God like Pat Robertson. All the snake oil pedddlers are the same. They tell people to believe for a healing when the snake oil peddler see's a Doctor for his/her remedy.

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

the simple fact is that agricultural viability takes the back seat in terms of world politics. The world is in want not of resources but resource management. I am bringing to your attention that addressing the issue of world hunger divorced from the issue of politics is like something off with the fairies ...

Very well made point LG. To address world hunger we need to take action ourselves - not sit about either not caring, or waiting for God to do it for us.

I’ve heard Pat Robertson tell his viewers ‘God will heal you all you have to do is ask him”. Then Pat goes running off to the Doctor when he has aliments.

Prayer isn't working, not even for a man of God like Pat Robertson. All the snake oil pedddlers are the same. They tell people to believe for a healing when the snake oil peddler see's a Doctor for his/her remedy.

You misunderstand prayer earth. This goes back to what I was saying about motivation and prayer earlier.

Of course Pat Robertson went to the doctor - God is not some slave to save us effort. If we want to get better, we make every effort we can, and that includes prayer. A positive response is then:

"He's really doing well, recovering very quickly," spokesman Chris Roslan said of the 79-year-old founder of the Christian Broadcasting Network. "He's doing great."

Obviously Robertson himself feels it worked:

Only the prayers of thousands of believing people kept me on this earth.

Would he have died otherwise? Who can ever say what would have happened without prayer? However, primary-prayer (about ones own healing), research does show reduced anxiety, increased optimism and increased chances of a successful recovery (see here for a more detailed analysis). No snake oil was used.

 

[earth]

Diogenes' Dog,


I take it you are speaking for yourself about claiming the deity you believe in dwells beyond time. You believe your God can think without the need for time. I say okay and leave it at that with the understanding that is your belief. I can only picture a place completely void lacking even time itself.

The thing I recognize about receiving answers to prayer is it’s inconsistency and it’s dubiousness. Then there are the excuses why prayer isn't working, aren't they.

The doctors doing the surgery on Pat Roberston don't mind if Pat says God did it, they get paid just the same no matter what Pat says, and the surgeons know their name isn't God. The doctors reality compared to Pat's unreality.

 

[lightgigantic]

It began discussing prayer and the fact it hasn't done anything for the plight of the poor in the previous thousands of years. Praying doesn't feed people and is simply religious Wizardry without results.

and I'm pointing out that issues of resource management (such as world hunger for example) are a subsidary of poltics and the attitudes that go with it.

Determining whether prayer has any effect on that requires an analysis on its influence in the collective and individual political attitude.

I don't see any such analysis in any of your posting.

What I do see is some sort of suggestion that prayer should be able to deliver the goods while we sit on our laurels (which would make god our servant ..... an idea contrary to most theological doctrines)

 

[lightgigantic]

Religion's tools have been refined for snake oil peddlers to use.

and for you too

An example of a snake oil peddler using those refined tools is predicting the future......

Is Pat Robertson making a liar out of God or is God making a liar out of Pat Robertson?
Pat Robertson calls God a liar, indirectly. Understand there is no such thing as a chrystal ball, not even when using advanced alien technology.

Hands off the Flim Flam Man and his religion is the notion.


I’ve heard Pat Robertson tell his viewers ‘God will heal you all you have to do is ask him”. Then Pat goes running off to the Doctor when he has aliments.

Prayer isn't working, not even for a man of God like Pat Robertson. All the snake oil pedddlers are the same. They tell people to believe for a healing when the snake oil peddler see's a Doctor for his/her remedy.

hence the suggestion that an analysis issues of application is the standard means to determine the validity of any persons claiming to be representing a given.

Otherwise one could just as easily vouch for the incredulity of any discipline on the strength of any crackpot (whether it be in fields of science or religion)

 

[earth]

Otherwise one could just as easily vouch for the incredulity of any discipline on the strength of any crackpot (whether it be in fields of science or religion)

I doubt there were any “quack” surgeons operating on Pat. However quackery is the medicine he applies. And the results are a placebo effect at best.

 

[earth]

and I'm pointing out that issues of resource management (such as world hunger for example) are a subsidary of poltics and the attitudes that go with it.

Determining whether prayer has any effect on that requires an analysis on its influence in the collective and individual political attitude.

I don't see any such analysis in any of your posting.

Do the analysis yourself if your interested.
I will say this,
Governments around the world work together to provide relief to during famine or disaster. They supply medicines and aid. When I think about it governments are working at managing resources and providing aid. Something tangible that can be measured vs prayer. Next you'll be claiming governments couldn't function without prayer sustaining them. Similar to the way Pat Robertson is claiming that it’s prayer keeping him alive instead of the skill and training of the surgeons and his doctors.

 

[spidergoat]

My thinking is God = Alien technology..

You are simply replacing the supernatural with the supertechnological. Neither are necessary.

Only in the one study (Benson 2006) do people do worse if they know they are prayed about. Why that happened is a good question...


Science will always seek a naturalistic interpretation over a religious one. That makes isolating the direct repeatable effects of "God", extremely difficult. The sense of purpose, optimism and peace of mind is all part of what belief in God is about.

They didn't have prayer research methodologies until about 20 years ago! Jesus says a lot about the pointlessness of prayer that is insincere. Praying for a list of names as part of a research programme is not the most sincere reason for wishing someone better. I think that could be an important factor, and cannot be discounted

The people in the experiment were really sick! So far, no prayer studies have shown a prayer effect. Until one does, and it's methods are reliable, you cannot say that prayer works. Science to date prefers naturalistic explanations to supernatural ones, because nothing supernatural has ever been shown to exist. Until it does, the naturalistic explanation, even if not proven and merely a plausible one, must prevail.

The sense of "purpose and peace" you talk about, is faith- belief, in the absence of evidence. In every other sphere of life, this would be considered folly. If I believed I lived in a golden palace, I suppose that would make me feel peaceful too! But I know I don't.

 

[earth]

Originally Posted by earth
My thinking is God = Alien technology..

Originally Posted by spidergoat
You are simply replacing the supernatural with the supertechnological. Neither are necessary.

I’m suggesting the possibility alien technology could be responsible for the persistent religious claims that something referred to as God is sending messages to individuals. Old religious text makes the same claim. Even George Bush junior has made the claim something he referred to as God sends him messages now and then.

 

[spidergoat]

Occam's razor, use it. It is much more likely that the brain is involved. The experience can be produced much more quickly and reliably through different kinds of drugs.

 

[earth]

Occam's razor, use it. It is much more likely that the brain is involved. The experience can be produced much more quickly and reliably through different kinds of drugs.

Well, I tried Occam’s Razor and I end up with no possibility of advanced alien technology existing in this galaxy. Not sure I can agree this time.

 

[Sarkus]

Well, I tried Occam’s Razor and I end up with no possibility of advanced alien technology existing in this galaxy. Not sure I can agree this time.

Occam's Razor does not make determinations of what is possible or not.
It is merely a means to determine between various possibilities which is more rational to accept given the existing information / evidence.

That alien technology might exist in this galaxy is a possibility.
For them to be using it on us is also a possibility - although more remote than merely existing.

That all the experiences are actually just occurring within the brain with no "alien" outside influence is also a possibility.

The latter happens to involve fewer "unknowns"... i.e. does not require the existence of aliens for which we have no evidence, nor for them to have visited our planet and interacted with us... also for which we have no evidence.

Given that we know we have a brain, and know that it is the fundamental organ for our perceptions... Occam's Razor would tell you that the latter is a more rational explanation than aliens - given the evidence we currently have.

But Occam's Razor will NOT tell you what is possible or not, nor will it tell you the underlying truth. It is merely a tool for identifying the (more) rational of the existing probabilities.

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

The people in the experiment were really sick! So far, no prayer studies have shown a prayer effect. Until one does, and it's methods are reliable, you cannot say that prayer works.

That's factually incorrect SG. As I posted before 57% of trials before the Benson 2006 trial showed a statistically significant prayer effect on equally sick people! See Austin, J., Ann Intern Med. 2000;132:903-910.

The main evidence however comes from people's reported observations of prayer being answered. OK, that is only anecdotal... however it may be the best we can get, as the rigorous scientific conditions required to exclude bias mean you have to remove any connection between prayer and recipient in all but name. It is no surprise therefore that no effect was demonstrated under these highly artificial conditions. If "God is love", and not some mechanical law of physics, you would expect praying over a phone book to be very different in efficacy from praying for someone you love.

Science to date prefers naturalistic explanations to supernatural ones, because nothing supernatural has ever been shown to exist. Until it does, the naturalistic explanation, even if not proven and merely a plausible one, must prevail.

That's the story we tell ourselves, however it's far less rational than that. Science is deeply conservative, and frequently resists adopting new ideas (e.g. Wegener and Plate Techtonics).

Science is also still fighting religion to be the dominant epistemology. Results that do demonstrate paranormal phenomena are therefore hotly contested, and their methodologies fine-tooth-combed. If they pass that test, unless ALL research shows reliable results, even if the meta-research shows a strong effect, they remain as 'contested'. ESP (telepathy), Ganzfeld and MMI (Psychokinesis) are good examples.

The sense of "purpose and peace" you talk about, is faith- belief, in the absence of evidence. In every other sphere of life, this would be considered folly. If I believed I lived in a golden palace, I suppose that would make me feel peaceful too! But I know I don't.

Faith is trust on incomplete evidence, not a total "absence of evidence", and certainly not "contrary to the evidence".

You can have faith in e.g. your wife, that she is being faithful to you. The "absence of evidence" of her fidelity does not make it folly to have faith. The same faith applies in religion. Prayer seems to work for people. The psychological effects are demonstrable under scientifically rigorous conditions. Is that JUST psychological? How can we ever know?

Have faith, pray and you will get better quicker... Don't and you won't! :shrug:

 

[Diogenes' Dog]

Well, I tried Occam’s Razor and I end up with no possibility of advanced alien technology existing in this galaxy. Not sure I can agree this time.

Whether you believe there are aliens out there depends on how you estimate the values in the Drake equation.

I think religion is far more earthy than the activities of 'aliens' though! We are a seamless part of the universe, embedded and embodied and not separate from the rest of reality. If you take a Process Philosophy view, that has huge consequences for our unconscious mind - which is no longer "just" our brain, but is inter-connected to the whole physical universe.

 

[earth]

Occam's Razor does not make determinations of what is possible or not.
It is merely a means to determine between various possibilities which is more rational to accept given the existing information / evidence.

Given that we know we have a brain, and know that it is the fundamental organ for our perceptions... Occam's Razor would tell you that the latter is a more rational explanation than aliens - given the evidence we currently have.

Here is a short article stating that if extraterrestrial civilizations exist in this galaxy they’re likely to be older and more advanced technologically than we are. With the persistence of religion claiming “something” is sending messages to individuals, I wouldn’t discount alien machines all together.

 

[earth]

Whether you believe there are aliens out there depends on how you estimate the values in the Drake equation.

Here is an article making the argument that the Drake equation is obsolete.

This article says the problem with the Drake equation is that estimates of the values of each of its seven factors vary enormously.