That would mean that when I choose to do something valiant or selfless out of honor, that I have been compelled. Isn't there a difference between making a choice and being compelled? If not, then I'm getting defined out of the game. If my deliberative process is merely another compulsion, then what isn't a compulsion? There is none. Cause can't be the same as compulsion. Compulsion is a much narrower concept.
Why free will is impossible
- Thread starter litewave
- Start date
That would mean that when I choose to do something valiant or selfless out of honor, that I have been compelled. Isn't there a difference between making a choice and being compelled? If not, then I'm getting defined out of the game. If my deliberative process is merely another compulsion, then what isn't a compulsion? There is none. Cause can't be the same as compulsion. Compulsion is a much narrower concept.
Wouldn't that mean that it would be impossible to make a choice adverse to one of your own biases? We know we can do that. So will your response be that another bias was stronger than the first? So that makes every cause a bias?
Again, defined out of the game. No such thing as a free choice only compelled choices. No uncompelled choices. That really means no "real" choices. So the all the choices we make aren't really choices?
Your theory is that I'm only free when the choice is arbitrary? That's not the way we usually limit our concept of freedom. Hard choices are still choices, and usually they are the most important ones.
No I'm not saying that, I do believe in limited free will and for the most part, it feels like the real thing, and I'm okay with that.
I never mentioned legal issue at all. There's MUCH more to the concept of personal responsibility than just legality - FAR, FAR more.
Cool. Now I know the structural mechanism for empathy.
What can you tell us about self-reflection, and prioritizing our impulses and motivations, and selection of our short and long term goals?
What allows "limited free will'?
This silly topic springs up here at least once every year or so - and it's never any different.
You know what I find so highly amusing about it?
Some young little punk thinks he's discovered something that nobody knows and others join in with their irrational thoughts in support of it. Thing is, they *ALL* THINK they are showing off their deep insight and knowledge - while all they are *really* doing is displaying (to the whole world!) their total ignorance and inability to think logically. They've no idea of the consequences of what they're supporting. It's just SO funny to watch them grasp at imaginary straws and contentiously trip over obstacles that they themselves have created without even being aware that they made them.
So are you saying that being responsible is the exercise of free will? I say at some point in your life you made a choice to be responsible or not. Was that choice free will? I say it was a predisposed choice based on many factors concerning how you were raised, what genes you inherited and the environment you grew up in. Is that free will? I will admit it sure feels like free will at the time. But I say that feeling is mostly illusion. Once you decide how you are going to live your life, every choice after that is predisposed only to options that fall within those parameters. You are only making limited choices. Sure they feel like free will. Do Asimov's robots have free will under the three laws of robotics that they have to operate within?
We are not robots. And no, you are only considering things to limited by self-limiting your thinking.
While there ARE some things that limit our choices - like being unable to go to college because you were born in Somalia - even those can be overcome if you are determined enough to do them. In the example I just gave, you can work toward leaving the country.
Along those same lines, may kids *insist* they cannot afford to go to college. Yet others in the same financial circumstances manage to make it every day. How? Be being so determined that they attend part-time (if necessary) and work to pay for it and/or take student loans.
As I already explained, those who claim they cannot may fall back on the lie that they were destined not to go to college. It's really a simple and easy cop-out.
For another: You may have been born without legs or somehow lost the use of them. Some would say that keeps them from participating in sports. That's just another excuse because MANY play basketball in a wheelchair and join in marathon races with others like themselves. The ONLY difference is wanting to badly enough.
Self-reflection, if meaning thoughts about one’s thoughts, presumably in a higher and better way as a kind of disassociated spectator, as much as possible, can be useful for discarding impulses and “bad” or selfish motivations, although this taking pause (or counting to ten) to achieve a more creative solution is but a modicum of free will, if that, since that is probably what one has become in general, anyway. One might arrive at what is best for all, even if that choice is not the first one that came to mind.
It is at least a higher degree of accessing a fuller spectrum of information. We all know certain people who ever react rather instantly, leaving no time at all for any rumination.
At any rate, it is not always so easy to disregard one’s own thoughts. We easily do it when we don’t follow through to “kill that bad driver who cut us off” but how many less obvious cases slip through?
This silly topic springs up here at least once every year or so - and it's never any different.
You know what I find so highly amusing about it?
Man I wish I was the only guy who had the 2,000 year old puzzle of Free will vs. Determinism figured out.
Oh, wait... I AM.
And that's why the poor philosophy profs who have to teach it about 3 times a year to a whole new group smoke so much rope.
Your sure of that are you? What if I could say we have been programed by evolution and we live within the constraints of our programming? How do you define what is a robot?
Are you trying to imply that anything you just said constitutes free will. Again I say predisposed personality easily accounts for everything you just said.
Sorry, but all I can tell you is that you're either being bull-headed or foolish. There's no middle ground. If you want to think that ALL your choices are already made in advance for you, then I would clearly vote for the latter.
But take your own pick. IF you think you have a choice, that is.
Man I wish I was the only guy who had the 2,000 year old puzzle of Free will vs. Determinism figured out.
Oh, wait... I AM.
There's nothing to figure out. Just a bunch of young jerks trying to ACT intelligent - without even knowing what "intelligent" means. :shrug:
There is always a middle ground. The words themselves (free will, determinism) may constitute actions that have a particular consequence, but in the sphere of psychology they mean different things to different individuals corresponding to the particular level of intelligence and "experience" of the author. Some actions constitute a cause effect relationship in which instance they are determined. As far as free will goes we will always be connected by our physical and natural abilities. Nothing at all prevents the freedom of choices from occurring. To think so is to side against yourself.
That's not the middle ground I was talking about - however, the rest of that post is accurate and true.
Much appreciated. Glad to see not all of my vigorous typing is absolutely useless. Not many people stop to compliment.
I think our differences are probably mostly in how we are defining free will. I do think we have a limited free will within ranges of predisposition. The basic programing of all life is to stay alive and procreate. To stay alive we need to eat, breath and drink water and stay within a temperature range, not get eaten by other animals or killed by fellow humans, ...etc. To procreate we need to attract a mate we can have sex with.
From these basic needs, you throw in all the genetic possibilities, the personalities, education and skills of the parents and region of the world where you were born. The local neighborhood you grow up in. All of these things shape the ranges of predisposition you will be able to exercise your limited free will in.
You're very welcome. In fact, I find it rewarding when someone enters a discussion like this one and injects some intelligence - it's rare and refreshing!