Why free will is impossible
- Thread starter litewave
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This question rather hinges on what one considers to be free-will.
If one takes it to be the ability of an agent to select one outcome from a multiple possible outcomes, with that selection free from influence on the selecting agent... then I can't see how this is possible.
If one takes free-will to be a pattern of activity that gives the appearance of self-determination, then this exists and is evident.
But this latter is illusory with regard genuine self-determination, and is merely the appearance of it, in the same way that a mirage is an illusion of an object (e.g. water) yet still actually exists (as a pattern of refracted light etc).
My view is that "genuine free-will" - as in a selection being in any way not driven 100% by the chain of cause and effect (or randomness) - is not possible... not at the micro-scopic level and thus not at the macro-level.
To be possible it would logically require an uncaused and non-random interaction.
So we are left with this sense of free-will with which we operate... an illusion of genuine free-will yet real in its own right.
So it depends on what we are talking about.
If one takes it to be the ability of an agent to select one outcome from a multiple possible outcomes, with that selection free from influence on the selecting agent... then I can't see how this is possible.
If one takes free-will to be a pattern of activity that gives the appearance of self-determination, then this exists and is evident.
But this latter is illusory with regard genuine self-determination, and is merely the appearance of it, in the same way that a mirage is an illusion of an object (e.g. water) yet still actually exists (as a pattern of refracted light etc).
My view is that "genuine free-will" - as in a selection being in any way not driven 100% by the chain of cause and effect (or randomness) - is not possible... not at the micro-scopic level and thus not at the macro-level.
To be possible it would logically require an uncaused and non-random interaction.
So we are left with this sense of free-will with which we operate... an illusion of genuine free-will yet real in its own right.
So it depends on what we are talking about.
Uncaused events (selections) seem possible on the subatomic level. However, uncaused events are not intentional (if they were intentional they would have a cause, namely an intention), so they don't satisfy the requirements of free will.
Huh?
Cause != intention.
You're conflating (or misconflating) two separate phenomena.
Yes, intention determines intentional action, so intention is a cause.
Pandaemoni
Valued Senior Member
I think part of what people think of as "free will" is that our intentions to act can arise uncaused. In reality it's hard to even think of an intention that I form that is not causally linked to other events, but we like to think there is a possibility of uncaused intentions forming in our minds.
You cant have free will.
You eat three boxes of cookies and you throw them back up. Free Will? Dont think so.
Well that's your unsupported opinion.
And this illustrates... what exactly?
That there are consequences? That some things aren't a matter of "choice"?
Yes, but, one more time, cause != intention. And you've simplified it: not all intentions are causes - they have to be acted upon.
If a snow storm makes the road slippery and the car slides off the road where was the "intent"?
The cause was a slippery surface. Did the snow intend to make it slippery? Or did the slippery surface intend to make the car skid?
I don't know what this notation "!=" represents.
If you have an intention to act and you don't act it means there are also other causes that prevent the intended action. The intention is one of the causes in the situation but the result depends on the joint influence of all causes present in the situation. If a building doesn't collapse under its own weight it doesn't mean that gravity does not have a causal effect. Gravity is just one of the causes in the situation.
What's the point in this? Not all causes are intentions. (But all intentions are causes.)
"does not equal".
Were those causes intended?
And you're missing the point. Intention alone is not a cause.
Exactly. But that's not what you implied earlier.
Um, no. As explained above.
Some of the other causes might be intentions too, others not.
Why not?
This doesn't imply that all causes are intentions. It just means that intentional events have a cause, and since uncaused events don't have a cause they can't be intentional.
Yeah. Blah blah blah. All you're doing is confusing the issue.
What causes the intention?
More from Daniel Dennett, this time a lecture entitled "Is science showing that we don't have free will?"
(the above link skips to the beginning of the lecture as the introduction, given by the principle of Edinburgh University, was boring and useless)
(the above link skips to the beginning of the lecture as the introduction, given by the principle of Edinburgh University, was boring and useless)
Some cause. Or maybe it can also emerge uncaused, like some quantum event.
The action can be prevented by other causes, as I explained.
Hi, litewave. Like Dywyddyr said; intention isn't a cause itself as it isn't a action itself. Intention is a way for you to build up potential for the action, also intention prepares the action (probably in more ways than we are conscious of).
Intention isn't necessarily the cause of the action but rather what you intend with the action. You can have the intention to cause something that won't be satisfied by the action that comes next but may need more actions.
Either way, none of this proves or disproves free will. In one way or another you are participant of the action you take. In a very real way. If you weren't then that action couldn't have taken place. The feeling that you are participant in your actions is what I think is 'free will' and I firmly believe that you couldn't do the action if you weren't participant in it.
So intention causes a potential for action, which then causes the action?
But you also intend to do the action, in order to achieve your intended goal.
You got a pretty good post here . Were as the intent has to be nurtured. It is about the same as goal setting . You set the goal and it becomes the root motivator , but if procrastination gets in the way the goal has a piss pour chance at being realized . Yet was it free will that causes procrastination ?
I wish you all could be me for a day . You could see how events unfold better. Think about it the next time you play pool . Dice ! Think about it the next time you roll dice . Is there randomness when you roll the dice ? Is the out common dependent on factors ? Hypnotic suggestions go a long way towards changing your motivations . You would be surprised how just a passing comment by someone walking by not even talking to you has an impact . Or a license plate . Maybe it is just Me ? Na I seen to many peoples actions altered by peripheral interference . O.K. here is what happened to me . I was having bouts of vertigo beyond my normal vertigo . I was think F--ck why am I so dizzy . I was even considering going against my principle of not going to doctors . Yes The Great Mekigal was thinking of going to a doctor so they could tell Me something was wrong. God Forbid . I already knew I was subject to out side influence by suggestion. So I though Maybe I better examine my environment more, or to say pay attention to my daily rut and see if anything was causing my extra dizziness . F--ck 2 blocks from my house on my daily rout was a car parked . The plate said Dizzy . After I realized I was passing the car with out another thought about it and now was Consciously aware of the car that said dizzy on the vanity plate . Instantly my vertigo was gone . I had to consciously acknowledge the plate from that day forward . Well I don't know if I had to , but I did and the vertigo stayed at bay . Was it ritual activity ? Maybe . You would not think so if you were me for a day , but then I am just as delusional as any body , so who does know for sure . I think I do , I think I do I think I do . I think I can I think I can
O.K. My Father was in the air force in the 50s . That is how I ended up being born in Alaska . So he told me long ago about an experiment the Air Force did . It was at a movie theater . What was done was a picture of a piece of popcorn was flashed on the screen in a single frame. Something like 90% of the audience got up at intermission and bought popcorn . They would do the test with out the popcorn and a very low percentage got up and bought popcorn . So from this a law was made to not allow this practice in advertising. There was a limit on how long an image had to be on the screen/T.V. / theater / What have you . So if this is true which I tend to believe my Dad told the truth , If this effect happens in this scenario why would it not in daily activity? The things in the shadows that affect daily decision making? People say the damnedest things out of the blue . Why ? People will even say " I don't know why I said that"