In response to Wessmorris
Hey you, I like people the way they are. Yeah, I do. I suppose this is why I do not attempt to change folks in any significant way. I tried to teach my children to leave room in their comfort zone for those with opinions, customs, and religious beliefs unlike their own, while at the same time giving my young ones some room to think what they might about the beliefs. This seems to be the distinction you are trying to make; that is, that you respect me, but do not respect my beliefs. Really? I wonder.
YOUR WORDS:
I see nothing to compel me to think otherwise. That doesn't mean I can't respect you, or that I think you're stupid.
· …your internalized propogation of the myth in order to make yourself feel
better. . .
· It just means that your emotional status for whatever reason requires you to support the idea of something you made up based on someone else's suggestion….
· I don't respect your opinion on the matter of god.
· it's blatantly silly to me
STILL YOURS:
I think the outward assertion is unfair to someone who agrees that "hey maybe I can't know about god".
· Why don't you demonstrate it
· … the belief itself disgusts me on a personal level.
· Unless you can show otherwise my opinion is unlikely to change
· You are free to attempt to persuade me to feel otherwise. I'll be fair
· …someone who already believes in god CAN'T BE FAIR ABOUT THE .SUBJECT
· not to mention the whole logical think where god is unknowable in the first place... that is, if you're willing to be fair
· I'm pretty confident I understand the issue quite clearly.
AND YET MORE OF YOURS:
I was trying to outline the logical implications of the situation.
· god is unknowable in the first place...
· the belief simply annoys me
· Logically, assertions of god are simply unfounded …..
· I do respect that you seem well-intended
· If I've missed something, please let me know.
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What is specious? I can't figure if you meant suspiscious or special or what.
specious: adjective – seeming to be good, sound, correct, without really being so.
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pmt responds:
Foremost, you say you are disgusted with my blatantly silly, unfounded, belief, even though you think I mean well. In addition, you assume to know that I believe in God through indoctrination or by having made up some silly concept.
You say: If I am willing to agree with you that God is
“not knowable in the first place” I will then be considered fair by you. How nice. In other words, if I can bring myself to agree with you, then I shall be fair in your eyes. Wow. Nevertheless, I am a bit confused, insomuch as you say,
“someone who already believes in God cannot be fair.” Moreover, you say that “
outwardly asserting that God is, is unfair.” That really puts me in a big old unfair circle! However, your outwardly asserting that I am naïve, disillusioned and disgusting, that I cannot think for myself, is a fair statement, because you say it, and, of course, you
“see things clearly.” However, you
“respect" me. Right! I can tell.
In addition, you write:
“I get annoyed as piss if you assert god to me, because in doing so you imply authority where you simply have none (which is part of the basis for the unknowable thing)”
No plural “you” here, okay? I assert no authority toward you, even though I certainly have the years behind me. Just because you are annoyed with some one who is apparently driven to evangelize, does not give you good cause to assert that I am a moron in my last stage of regression, in that I have not allowed some old prejudice, ill will, or inflated ego, to cloud my knowledge of God. Wes, you do not fool me. You hate the disillusionment, the propaganda, if you will; the
“I am better than you;” “I know God, and you know nothing” messages that come to you from those who would save you from hell. That is, they would, if only you would accept one of their boxes with God and all the rules in it. Well, listen you; no one has God in a box. He is your God, Wes. Why would a smart, wonderful person such as yourself, allow people to push him into a corner, where he covers his doubts to say,
“Get the hell out of here; I reject all of it.”
From the beginning of man, there have been religions in one form or another. People before us worshiped the sun, feared the weather as some kind of message, and so on. Man uses what he knows, and man knew that somewhere beyond him was a power that he did not and could not understand. Everyone senses this, at one time or another. There is no evidence you say? Exactly what evidence do you require? Do not tell me, but think about it. See, I do not really believe in miracles, because I think it has all been done—so far as we are concerned, and that, aside from evolution, which is a natural phenomena, God is not going to interrupt nature’s program to open a sea, or throw a tree across the road ~to make you a believer. However, we can be in harmony with all that is, in a very special way. It makes sense, Wes. God, nature, us…-all related. All a part of the same marvel, so to speak, moved by the same energies, cooled by the same breezes and warmed by the same elements. We are nature, Wes. I think we forget that, and hold ourselves aside, or above the rest of what is. We are of the most High. What we know, we take for granted; what we do not know, we read about, guess about, theorize about, and that is okay, but we can be in harmony with what we know and what we do not know. This I know. We can start right there. It is a good place to start.
YOU WROTE:
“so when you say "i believe" you say "other answers are wrong"
And, when you say that you do not believe, are you not saying that others are wrong? But wait! You do not say: “I do not believe.” You say rather that those who disagree with your agnosticism are disillusioned. They have been brainwashed. They are silly. Well, probably some are. Perhaps you would be interested to know that I think Agnosticism is an attempt to play it safe, a cop-out of sorts, a theory that really is not a theory, a place to hide. I had not mentioned it, because now I am going to have a whole bunch of good folks on my back, pounding my head with some sophisticated theological book learning! They will come up with adjectives that we have not even thought about. Just kidding. I love books.
FROM WES:
“… that's simply unfair in a discussion. Again it's fine for personal beliefs or whatever, but shit like "we know god through the bible" is just unfailr, unfounded crap..”
Unless folks can agree on a premise, there is no valid argument. Therefore, I do not understand why anyone would try to prove God to someone with scriptures, when the person/people to whom they speak clearly do not believe the scriptures. Doing so desecrates the scriptures, at least to those who are opposed. Further, it is no more sensible than taking Nietzsche’s rantings and trying to prove to a Christian, a Muslim or a Jew, that there is no God.
You see, I agree with Spinoza that if all the bibles were burned, and all pens, ink, paper and other methods of recordings were destroyed, we would still have the Word of God. I believed in God, before church and before I read the Bible. This is probably one of the main reasons that my disillusions with church did not destroy my peace with God.
Enough about that, but I thought I should mention it. [If you hate it, wad some paper and throw it. That ought to do it!]
Taoism is all right. I have a book about it. I have yet to reach the max in my search for truth. I read from various beliefs and like to do so. All religions have some similarities, and oftentimes those similarities are what make the most sense. I like to think for myself, and prefer to draw no absolutes, (and seldom draw circles). I am not overly found of fancy words, and simple phrases, however, as are often found in devotionals. (Of the subject, but are you aware—not that you would care, particularly—that just about anyone familiar with the Bible can make money writing devotionals? True story. I was rather stunned and declined.) I like the truth, even if it takes some chewing to get there.
Especially for you:
The reason, dear person, that I say “I know that God is,” is actually because He cannot be proven (or disproved) by a book…not any book, not with calculus, not with theology, not with visions or dreams, but with a knowing reality, as you will see once you let go of those ropes and lose those barnacles.
Incidentally, even my grandchildren have never called me granny. They call me Grammy; therefore, if you are a teenybopper, you may also. Otherwise, I am just another adult that got old in the process. In any event, remember this, big guy: my mother could make a longshoreman blush, so watch it! ‘cause I remember some very colorful adjectives and exclamations.
...................... ^ pmt ^
