WES: Hehe, what you call malevolence I call exhaustion. I've been through this conversation countless times with countless morons and a handfull of smarties. I've become a bit jaded.
BRANDON: Or malevolence as a result of exhaustion, but I know what you mean. I experienced it on your side of the coin, and I'm experiencing it on my side as well. I'm fully aware that no argument I make will change your perspective...I just like to expound a bit to try to counter the generalizations made toward me (as a Christian); i.e. the mindless sheep angle...
WES: Hehe.. NO, you're wrong man. I'm already one up, I don't have to prove it but as I said I enjoy exploring this junk. I don't have to try to belittle you. I honestly don't want you belittled. I don't care if you're large or small. I care if you're truthfull, earnest, bright and reasonable.
BRANDON: Fair enough, and it would be hypocritical of me to pretend not to understand your arguments at all, because I used to make them (not that they really BELONG to either of us). That's what I want to get across, is that although we ended up with different conclusions, I DID go through the process you encourage...I became a Christian in my own home by myself, after tons of questions, tons of objective reading, years of reason. As for whether I'm truthful, earnest, bright and reasonable...I would like to think so, but wouldn't we all like to think the best of ourselves? I just hope you don't make the assumption that because I am a Christian, that I can no longer be any of those things. That would be as ridiculous as me saying that anyone who isn't a Christian can't be a morally good person....it's just not true.
WES: Yes, that does not mean I'm above you. I'm quite flawed in areas ass well. I'd hope you'd do me the favor of straightening me out if you saw that I was being a moron. I tend to offer the same favor. So I say "you're being a moron regarding your fudamental philosophical assertions, I can tell you why but I've been through this enough times to know that well, I don't think it's ever worked and it's not because I haven't been clear enough". I can be quite insightful and eloquent, but it doesn't mean shit if you're not willing to listen, which inherently christians are not, know what I mean? (why listen if you already know the answer?)
BRANDON: Yeah, these discussions aren't going to change any minds, per se. I view it as both of us planting seeds. If there is any change to be made, it would be much later, but yes, it's extremely doubtful. Who can change during the immediate discussion, when they are on the defensive, as we both are? I'm more interested in giving a different portrayal of my side of the coin, since I used to make unfair generalizations of Christians before I became one.
WES: Calling people names is no indicator of emotional maturity, but since you said please... hey fucker, get your shit together and expand your understanding you miserable cockbite piece of shit. That felt good, thanks.
BRANDON: I beg to differ. When you're a grown man and can't have a civilized debate without resorting to the tactics of a child, I would call that "emotional immaturity".
WES: You know, part of being human is venting your frustrations as they happen, such that they do not pile up. To quote the master: "Serenity now, insanity later." Hehe, if you find this contrary to your understanding of emotional maturity, I'd guess you don't have kids.
BRANDON: So the only way to deal with anger is to blow up? I don't agree with that at all...maybe you've let your kids teach you instead of vice-versa.
WES: The problem is you've got the issues all jacked up. How is it that you assume I don't trust my intuition or have a heart? That simply doesn't have anything to do with it. I think that if you let your heart and intuition take over when it comes to issues of TRUTH, then you're an idiot. Heart and intuition are to help you arrive at theories or hypotheticals. Your mind, or reason is the only way to assert truth. Otherwise you're, well... talking stupid shit (unless you happen to get lucky).
BRANDON: I'm saying that you can analyze things to death, and often never get anywhere. I think it's important to find a balance between the two.
WES: If it's not provable, it's fiction. Pretty simple. The bible is crap, the idea of god is moot. I know all the in-betweens and can argue a thousand different reasons as to why that is so, but instead I'll just refer you to my history of posts. My most recent endeavors have been with okinrus, jcarl and marcAC.
BRANDON: If it's not provable, it's fiction? There are many things that I'll bet you hold to be true that haven't been "proven". You can have evidence for something without conclusive proof. How many things in the scientific world have been "proven" only to be "disproven" later? Evolution has never been proven either (there is alot of evidence for microevolution, but not much for macroevolution), but I'll bet (and I could be wrong) that you believe in it, no?
WES: Fair representation? I'm not sure what you mean. As a christian, you are the fucking majority. You're not satisfied with that? What more would you take?
BRANDON: I mean fair representation in the fact that even though I am a singular person who is part of a group, generalizations are made on the term Christian, as if I can't be any different than my Christian brother or sister. Mainly the generalization that we are all "blind sheep" who have neglected to ever question our own beliefs, as if I was converted the first time I heard the Gospel...and technically, I think that the Muslim religion is the majority worldwide. I'm certainly the minority on this message board!
WES: As a christian you are bound to tell me what to believe.. I mean, if you really believe.
BRANDON: Correction: I'm bound to tell you what I BELIEVE. I cannot tell you what TO believe. Well, I COULD, but it wouldn't make you believe it! Like I said, that's your responsibility, and I wouldn't have it any other way, Wes. I wouldn't MAKE you a Christian if I could. It's not real unless it comes from inside, you know? I believe the beauty in the "system" is that of free choice.
WES: I'm not angry but I do get that way from time to time. It's like crashing your head into a brick wall over and over. Most of you christians are so sucked into your belief system that you simply cannot see that you're in it. Correction, most of the christians I've encountered via sciforums.
BRANDON: As I said above, I'm no stranger to the frustration of this topic, from either side of the argument. It's no different on this side of things, Wes. Let's be honest, you're not any more objective about Christianity than I am, at this point. Surely we can agree on that. You have completely ruled it out. In that sense, you are no different in being "stuck in your own belief system".
WES: Hehe, I'm not speaking from ignorance. I'm speaking from intellect and experience.
BRANDON: Not true. You may be speaking from intellect (although that and ONLY that, which I feel is just as dangerous as speaking from only "belief"), but you couldn't be speaking from experience, because you've never been a Christian (I could be wrong about this, but it doesn't seem to be the case. If so, were you as an adult?) The ignorance I'm talking about is in the labelling of each and every Christian as being without reason and intellect on the issue. The ignorance of calling all faith "blind faith".
BRANDON (previous post): If your beliefs (or lack of) are sound, you shouldn't need the "bells and whistles" approach, Wes.
WEST: Hehe, it is intended to weed out the meek. It occasionally works.
BRANDON: I don't think you're being honest with me or yourself here. I think you like the extra "mmmpfff" that you think your negative approach makes. I'm saying that your argument itself should suffice.
BRANDON (previous post): If I'm an "emotional retard", it will be plain as day to all who read this.
WES: No true. Not everyone has as clear of an understanding of the needs the christianity preys upon as I do.
BRANDON: Don't short-change everyone else. Besides, intellectualism (or pseudo-intellectualism maybe) preys on certain needs as well. It can be food for low self-esteem. See, I can make unfair generalizations just as easily as you.
BRANDON (previous post): You made the actual statement once, but it's the entire point of your argument: That I have succumbed to superstition; suspended my reason, given in to the "dumb masses". That in order to really be free, to grow and mature, I need to rid myself of these silly beliefs.
WES: Hmm, well what I mean is that if you're on a search for truth, you're on the wrong path. You can be a christian and be emotionally mature, my bad if I stated otherwise.
I need to expound upon that but simply don't have time at the moment.
BRANDON: Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that once I arrive at any given verdict ABOUT the truth, I have missed it entirely. If that were the case, then TRUTH as you speak of it is entirely unattainable! Not to mention that if you can say I'm on the wrong path, then you must have already found the real TRUTH. Otherwise, how would you know what the "wrong path" is?
BRANDON: And as I told you before, I've been through all of those thoughts many times over. Don't think you're giving me anything new, Wes.
WES: Yeah that's humble. I've been over it a few times as well you might notice.
BRANDON: Sorry if it was cocky, I didn't mean it that way. Just trying to get through the stereotype that I think you've assigned to me.
BRANDON (previous post): No, blind faith would mean that I have never questioned anything that I believe. I've done it to death.
WES: No blind faith is when you STOP questioning it, which you have to in order to assert your faith in the lord via your savior jesus christ. Dig?
BRANDON: We have a different definition of blind faith. "Blind" would indicate that I averted my eyes to my deep, burning questions instead of taking a hard look at them. Like I just did what I was told. That couldn't be further from the truth. As I stated before, I spent years doing just that. What I have now, because of all that time spent in question, is real FAITH, based on a decision of my own free will. There is a huge difference.
BRANDON (previous post): Now having questioned, and yes, still questioning
WES: Then you're not a very good christian.
BRANDON: Let me clarify. What I mean is that I don't have an answer for every single little question that pops into my head, Wes. That doesn't mean I question the existence of God or his dominion...it means I have a lot to learn, and always will. I think it's a little arrogant for you to claim to know what a good Christian is, since you deny Christianity completely.
BRANDON (previous post): I have skipped blind faith.
WES: Pardon, but I have a hard time buying that from a christian.
BRANDON: That's because of your pre-conveived idea of what a Christian "has to be". Generalization.
BRANDON (previous post): The notion that anyone who is a Christian is "faithfully blind" is ridiculous.
WES: No it isn't. If you want to make the claim, illustrate your reasoning. The bible has no relevance on a god or gods and there is no method by which to determine the property of a god or gods or that either might exists. This yet you claim to be a christian free of blind faith.
BRANDON: My reasoning is illustrated above in the difference between faith and blind faith. You seem to see no difference. You haven't had a chance to answer me yet about your beliefs on evolution, but since there is not complete proof of the theory, is anyone who believes in it faithfully blind?
BRANDON (previous post): Believe me, there are Christians all over the world who are much more intelligent than you or I...
WES: You're making assertions you can't back up. How do you know there is anyone smarter than me?
Seriously though, you have no footing, you're talking irrelavent smack.
BRANDON: I find it very relevant. It means that if intellect and reason were the key to finding the ultimate TRUTH, you would be far behind many people whom you belittle. That's why I like to make the point about a good dose of humility.
WES: For instance, have you ever noticed that intellegence is generally focused? In other words, smart fuckers are usually particularly smart regarding a 'mode' of thinking like math or english or sports analysis or whatever. As such, how is your assertion even remotely relevant?
BRANDON: I agree very much with your first couple of quotes. My assertion is relevant because you're making innate, genetic features the keys to ultimate truths. As if only the most intelligent are capable of discovery of TRUTH. I'm not discounting the intellect or reason to be very important, just not at the expense of everything else. Balance.
BRANDON: I haven't really asked you, Wes. What are your beliefs? Are you an atheist? Universalist? Or do you think that the TRUTH we're speaking of is unattainable? From things you've said, my guess would be atheist, but I would like to hear it from you. Don't worry, just because you might fall under a "category", doesn't mean you aren't an individual!
Brandon