Why did we get free will?

Norsefire said:
Oli, address my point.
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Me?
I hadn't even joined in when you made your statement.

If you mean this:
Norsefire said:
You are asking why we got something we don't have. We don't have free will, whether or not there is a God is irrelevant. It's in our biology, our brain has a certain method of operation, so we do not have free will.
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Not proven.
Our brain operation/ chemistry/ make up may give us predilections and preferences, but to say outright that we have no choice whatsoever is an overstatement.
Unless of course you want to start setting "criminals" free, because if there's no free will then they are victims almost as much as their victims...

"I am a victim of circumstance. As are we all"
Kurt Vonnegut, The Sirens of Titan.
 
But that statement holds truth: we are victims of our psychology. Ultimately.


Free will is impossible if we are purely materialistic. That is because matter has certain methods of operation, therefore no amount of complexity in the operation of our brain will lead to free will. We will always be prisoners to our psychology.

Free will is only possible with something that does not have the disadvantage of matter, i.e, a soul. However, while I do like to believe that we have souls, that is not proven.
 
Norsefire said:
But that statement holds truth: we are victims of our psychology. Ultimately.
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And is our psychology so rigidly set? There's no flex in it?

Free will is impossible if we are purely materialistic. That is because matter has certain methods of operation, therefore no amount of complexity in the operation of our brain will lead to free will.
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Chaotic systems?
 
Norsefire said:
It has barriers. It has certain methods of operation that cannot be surpassed. These are barriers to freedom, freedom of will.
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And within those barriers there is some leeway, yes?

Clarify
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A chaotic system is seemingly simple (in fcat the intial set up can be trivial) but it's impossible (not just difficult, but actually impossible) to state what its next condition will be.
Yet they never stray outside of a certain set of limits...
Reasonable grounding:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory
 
Oli said:
And within those barriers there is some leeway, yes?
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Yes, but that is not true free will.

A chaotic system is seemingly simple (in fcat the intial set up can be trivial) but it's impossible (not just difficult, but actually impossible) to state what its next condition will be.
Yet they never stray outside of a certain set of limits...
Reasonable grounding:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory
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Then that is not true chaos. The mere fact that there are natural laws means that true "freedom" or "chaos" or something of that sort is impossible. There are unsurpassable restrictions.
 
Norsefire said:
Yes, but that is not true free will.
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We're not arguing about "true" free will.
Do we have choices or not?
Even if we had "true" free will as you seem to define we could never exercise due to circumstance.

Then that is not true chaos. The mere fact that there are natural laws means that true "freedom" or "chaos" or something of that sort is impossible. There are unsurpassable restrictions.
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True or not, that's the terminology.
There are boundaries which cannot be stepped over, but within those boundaries there is no telling what is going to happen.
 
Oli said:
We're not arguing about "true" free will.
Do we have choices or not?
Even if we had "true" free will as you seem to define we could never exercise due to circumstance.
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We have choices to an extent, but even then, these choices are influenced heavily by many things.


True or not, that's the terminology.
There are boundaries which cannot be stepped over, but within those boundaries there is no telling what is going to happen.
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But whatever does happen is influenced by many things.
 
Yes influences range from the obvious to the hidden, from the overwhelming to the negligible, but there's still an element of choice.
 
Oli said:
Yes influences range from the obvious to the hidden, from the overwhelming to the negligible, but there's still an element of choice.
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A very narrow element of choice, and hardly what I'd call "free will".
 
Any so-called choices would be limited by circumstance if nothing else.
How do you go to a restaurant for a meal if it's 2 am and you're in a small back water town?
You can't just decide to win a gold medal in the Olympics, or a Nobel for chemistry...
 
Oli said:
Any so-called choices would be limited by circumstance if nothing else.
How do you go to a restaurant for a meal if it's 2 am and you're in a small back water town?
You can't just decide to win a gold medal in the Olympics, or a Nobel for chemistry...
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That isn't what I mean. Circumstance doesn't limit free will, it only limits the capability to achieve that will

I'm speaking of will. And your will and your thoughts are influenced by many things, many subliminal things
 
Norsefire said:
That isn't what I mean. Circumstance doesn't limit free will, it only limits the capability to achieve that will

I'm speaking of will. And your will and your thoughts are influenced by many things, many subliminal things
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Oh okay.
What's the operational difference between will and ability to achieve?
And now you mention it, my WILL is far more free than than my abilities to achieve that will.
I can dream of being a starship captain, for example, but have exactly zero chance of becoming one...
 
Oli said:
Oh okay.
What's the operational difference between will and ability to achieve?
And now you mention it, my WILL is far more free than than my abilities to achieve that will.
I can dream of being a starship captain, for example, but have exactly zero chance of becoming one...
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The difference is that someone in this hypothetical backwater town can still want to eat at a restaurant at 2AM, which is his will, but not be able to achieve that, which is the circumstance.

But this will alone, is still influenced by many factors, including the obvious like how you were raised, environment, social factors, etc, as well as more subtle and subliminal and subconcious factors.
 
When discussing free will it's usually about being able to make the choice and act on it, not just actually make the choice... e.g. shall I rob that little old lady or just help her across the busy road?
If you don't act on a choice then it may as well not have been made.

Granted: I've already acknowledged that there are many factors (overwhelming to negligible etc. Remember?)
 
Betrayer0fHope said:
The question is fairly simple, maybe I am missing something incredibly obvious, and I probably am, but, why did God give us free will?
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The simple answer is that there is no possibility of love without free will, and it is the relationship of love (or its sub groups - friendship, affection, liking, etc) which act as the most defining force between two or more conscious entities
 
lightgigantic said:
The simple answer is that there is no possibility of love without free will, and it is the relationship of love (or its sub groups - friendship, affection, liking, etc) which act as the most defining force between two or more conscious entities
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You certainly lack free will. You can't stop quoting the Bhagavad Gita.
 
lightgigantic said:
The simple answer is that there is no possibility of love without free will, and it is the relationship of love (or its sub groups - friendship, affection, liking, etc) which act as the most defining force between two or more conscious entities
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It must be great being religious and being able to pull stuff out of your ass like that.
 
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