Which would help me realise what?
No plan turns out as expected, even when micro-managed.
(Especially with architects
)So it could fail if he didn't intervene every time it needed a tweak?
Therefore it isn't a foregone conclusion.
Why did we get free will?
- Thread starter Betrayer0fHope
- Start date
No plan turns out as expected, even when micro-managed.
(Especially with architects
)Therefore it isn't a foregone conclusion.
Which would help me realise what?
No plan turns out as expected, even when micro-managed.
(Especially with architects
So it could fail if he didn't intervene every time it needed a tweak?
Therefore it isn't a foregone conclusion.
Two sources:
1
Nahmanides Genesis 22:1
The issue of tests is, in my opinion, since humans have complete free will, if they want to they will act and if they want they won't act. It is called a test from the perspective of the one being tested, but the Tester (God) presents us with tests in order to help us bring things from potential to actual. All tests in the Torah are for the benefit of the one being tested
2
http://www.zootorah.com/books/MiraclesNahmanides.pdf
JesseLeigh
Registered Member
God CANNOT fail.
G'morning Oli! (Shouldn't you be in bed?")
Originally Posted by JesseLeigh
"P.S. Oli - think of God as an Architect. ”
Oli: Which would help me realise what?
Jesse: That God is in charge of all known matter, all universes - everything, and they all hang upon his design and *control.*
Oli: \No plan turns out as expected, even when micro-managed.
(Especially with architects )
Jesse: God's plans do. 'It is impossible for God to fail.' and 'Not one word out of all the words that have issued forth from My mouth has returned to Me void, they have all come true.' This is an immutable truth and observable, historical fact.
Jesse: “ God will simply eingineer His way around whatever is necessary to accomplish His Purpose. ”
Oli: So it could fail if he didn't intervene every time it needed a tweak?
Therefore it isn't a foregone conclusion.
Jesse: Yes, it is because God never drops the ball. Again, 'It is impossible for God to fail.'
God pulls the 'weeds' from His garden just as anyone else would. Humankind was made in God's Image, so where do *you* think we get our ideas? :scratchin:
I can't talk anymore today, I'm already playing hooky and require to finish writing a particular chapter in my latest novel - sometime tonight.
Peace be upon you - TTYL - God Willing. - Jesse.
G'morning Oli! (Shouldn't you be in bed?"
)Originally Posted by JesseLeigh
"P.S. Oli - think of God as an Architect. ”
Oli: Which would help me realise what?
Jesse: That God is in charge of all known matter, all universes - everything, and they all hang upon his design and *control.*
Oli: \No plan turns out as expected, even when micro-managed.
(Especially with architects )
Jesse: God's plans do. 'It is impossible for God to fail.' and 'Not one word out of all the words that have issued forth from My mouth has returned to Me void, they have all come true.' This is an immutable truth and observable, historical fact.
Jesse: “ God will simply eingineer His way around whatever is necessary to accomplish His Purpose. ”
Oli: So it could fail if he didn't intervene every time it needed a tweak?
Therefore it isn't a foregone conclusion.
Jesse: Yes, it is because God never drops the ball. Again, 'It is impossible for God to fail.'
God pulls the 'weeds' from His garden just as anyone else would. Humankind was made in God's Image, so where do *you* think we get our ideas? :scratchin:
I can't talk anymore today, I'm already playing hooky and require to finish writing a particular chapter in my latest novel - sometime tonight.
Peace be upon you - TTYL - God Willing. - Jesse.
Um, no.
It certainly isn't an historical fact.
Then it shouldn't need tweaking. Unless he's a poor planner.
Really?
What weeds has he pulled lately?
So you're claiming all our ideas only come from god?
So why are we required?
the only way you can think of to make your wallet fatter is to be a (pseudo) religious leader?
Oh well ...looks like it could be six legs for you Mr Penthouse.
Leo Volont
Registered Senior Member
Actually, it is only Free Will as a matter of Process.
Allow us for a moment to return to the notions of Greek Theology, which everyone oversimplifies in order to support their notions of Atheism, arguing that the World is not Perfect but God is supposed to be Perfect, and so such a contradiction betrays God as a fiction. But examined more deeply one finds that God is Eternal. This correlates to Creation being an Eternal Process, doesn't it?
We can only expect Perfection after what would amount to an Eternity. An Eternal God, after all, needs Time to do His thing.
They say He is Good. Not fast.
So, given that we are now to see things against the perspective of Eternity, do we STILL have all this Free Will.
Well, what is Free Will. Free Will is an accident of Individuality, of having Separate Entities. The Cells in my body do not have Free Will... not unless they are cancerous. They are part of the Organization of my Body.
Well, ever since the beginning Life Organizes. Single Cell Organisms arrange themselves first, and then there is the cooperation between Cells to form multi-cellular organisms, then schools, then flocks, then Clans, Tribes, Nations, Family Reunions. Organization continues higher and higher up in complexity until we have complete Civilizations, entire Planets coming to terms with Life and cooperating collectively.
In a Cooperative Society what becomes of Free Will? With everyone working together to form one complete well oiled and efficient Mechanism, what can be the expression of Free Will but to throw some monkey wrench into the works.
Generally, that has been exactly what the Teachings of Free Will have been about. You see, it started with the Free Masons' extreme hate toward Catholic Civilization. Half of the Philosophy and Literature since the 14th Century has been sponsored by the Free Masons and is the most thinly veiled attacks not just against Catholic Civilization, but upon the principles that would be necessary to uphold ANY Civilization. Maybe the Masons supposed that once they destroyed Catholic Civilization, then they could throw all their Propaganda in reverse and create their own Civilization... that people would simply walk away from those most charished arguments for Barbarism, Freedom and Individuality.
But History has shown that Barbarian Cultures have little luck in conquering Civilizations, simply because their Institutions cannot sustain a Civilization. Barbarism is always lightly populated, and lightly populated because from the pressures of Individualism and Freedom, everyone is always killing each other.
In a True Civilization the issues regarding Individuality and Individual Freedom are not addressed... A Civilized Society simply does not percieve the Individual as being an entire Social Unit. Now, the Chinese used to see the Family as Unitary. In the System of Chinese Administration, the smallest unit of Bureaucratic Administration was a collection of 5 Families, NOT 5 individuals. And even this larger primary Unit was perhaps troublesome... chinese Civilization has collapsed a number of times and in those Collapses we have been able to see the contribution of some damaging behavior, not from individuals, but from some very selfish Families.
In a viable and sustainable Civilization, people need to identify totally with the Civilization... that part having no meaning apart from the Whole.
So these Free Will discussion only have their place while we are still trying to decide whether we want to be Civilized or Barbarian. If one watches too much Hollywood, one would think that Barbarism is preferrable. But remember, Barbarism's can support only a tiny fraction of the Population that a Civilization can. Don't argue for Barbarism unless you are ready for one huge collasal Bloodbath.
Allow us for a moment to return to the notions of Greek Theology, which everyone oversimplifies in order to support their notions of Atheism, arguing that the World is not Perfect but God is supposed to be Perfect, and so such a contradiction betrays God as a fiction. But examined more deeply one finds that God is Eternal. This correlates to Creation being an Eternal Process, doesn't it?
We can only expect Perfection after what would amount to an Eternity. An Eternal God, after all, needs Time to do His thing.
They say He is Good. Not fast.
So, given that we are now to see things against the perspective of Eternity, do we STILL have all this Free Will.
Well, what is Free Will. Free Will is an accident of Individuality, of having Separate Entities. The Cells in my body do not have Free Will... not unless they are cancerous. They are part of the Organization of my Body.
Well, ever since the beginning Life Organizes. Single Cell Organisms arrange themselves first, and then there is the cooperation between Cells to form multi-cellular organisms, then schools, then flocks, then Clans, Tribes, Nations, Family Reunions. Organization continues higher and higher up in complexity until we have complete Civilizations, entire Planets coming to terms with Life and cooperating collectively.
In a Cooperative Society what becomes of Free Will? With everyone working together to form one complete well oiled and efficient Mechanism, what can be the expression of Free Will but to throw some monkey wrench into the works.
Generally, that has been exactly what the Teachings of Free Will have been about. You see, it started with the Free Masons' extreme hate toward Catholic Civilization. Half of the Philosophy and Literature since the 14th Century has been sponsored by the Free Masons and is the most thinly veiled attacks not just against Catholic Civilization, but upon the principles that would be necessary to uphold ANY Civilization. Maybe the Masons supposed that once they destroyed Catholic Civilization, then they could throw all their Propaganda in reverse and create their own Civilization... that people would simply walk away from those most charished arguments for Barbarism, Freedom and Individuality.
But History has shown that Barbarian Cultures have little luck in conquering Civilizations, simply because their Institutions cannot sustain a Civilization. Barbarism is always lightly populated, and lightly populated because from the pressures of Individualism and Freedom, everyone is always killing each other.
In a True Civilization the issues regarding Individuality and Individual Freedom are not addressed... A Civilized Society simply does not percieve the Individual as being an entire Social Unit. Now, the Chinese used to see the Family as Unitary. In the System of Chinese Administration, the smallest unit of Bureaucratic Administration was a collection of 5 Families, NOT 5 individuals. And even this larger primary Unit was perhaps troublesome... chinese Civilization has collapsed a number of times and in those Collapses we have been able to see the contribution of some damaging behavior, not from individuals, but from some very selfish Families.
In a viable and sustainable Civilization, people need to identify totally with the Civilization... that part having no meaning apart from the Whole.
So these Free Will discussion only have their place while we are still trying to decide whether we want to be Civilized or Barbarian. If one watches too much Hollywood, one would think that Barbarism is preferrable. But remember, Barbarism's can support only a tiny fraction of the Population that a Civilization can. Don't argue for Barbarism unless you are ready for one huge collasal Bloodbath.
Just to be clear on what your message is, I will restate your entire post, especially the above:
God allows free will but is slowly producing the perfection of civilization, where no one exercises free will by disrupting the increasing well organized "civilization" (by an act of "free will" - throwing your "monkey wrench" into the civilization's well organized machine).
Or even more compactly stated:
God's will is manifested in the development and ultimate dominance of the Chinese system of government, now being constructed by the CCP.
Did I understand your rather unique POV? :shrug:
JesseLeigh
Registered Member
Free Will
G'morning!
When we speak of *free will* in terms of what humans are and are not allowed by God (for if there were no God then this wouldn't be an issue), we are speaking of the gift of *choice* - do we have choice (free will) or don't we?
If we do, then we have been given the *freedom* to *choose* whether to worship God and follow Christ and are consequently *responsible* for our own choices, behavior, actions, interactions, sins of omission, commission, and so on.
If we do *not* have *free will* then we cannot be held *accountable* for any choices, behavior, actions, interactions, or sins of omission, commission, etc. The human being is reduced to a robotic existence with no freedom of expression, no individuality, and no choice in his or her life as everything is, by default, *predestined.*
There would be no need for *redemption* because a sin is any departure from the Laws of God. (That would render Christ's Sacrificial death unnecessary and meaningless.) If humans have no *choice* as to whether they will follow (obey) the Laws of God then they cannot incur an adverse *judgment.*
If humans have free will then they are individuals with the freedom to choose but must also accept the consequences for their choices.
If humans do not have free will they are robots and cannot be held accountable for anything.
There are entire books in the Bible, Chronicles for example, where we read, 'And this one did evil in the sight of The LORD.' This sentence is repeated scores of times in application to scores of separate and notable individuals.
If humans do *not* have free will then no 'Evil' could have been done (then or now) in the sight of The LORD.
Humankind has free will. History bears this out.
If we'd rather not apply the discussion of free will to a deity then lets keep it within a human family.
I'm the mother of eight children and the grandmother of three. When I tell my grandson not to eat a cookie (or whatever), and my grandson *chooses* to ignore me and eat the cookie anyway, then my grandson has exercised his will over mine. He has proven that he has free will. (In my house, that act of disobedience wouldn't herald a bright future for the child, but that's a whole other thread. )
If you make a choice, any choice, which all of us do dozens of times a day, then you too have free will. How any thinking person can reasonably refute this line of reasoning is beyond me, but then, the act of *choosing* to refute it simply proves my point, doesn't it?
Next... Hello Oli.
“ Originally Posted by JesseLeigh
This is an immutable truth and observable, historical fact. ”
Um, no.
It certainly isn't an historical fact.
Please cite your source for this statement.
When I tell you that something will happen, and it does, then that happening becomes a historical fact. We have hundreds of examples of where God (YHWH) said something would happen, and it did, making each instance an observable, historical fact. If you wish to prove otherwise, you're going to have to do better than "Um, no." Sorry, but that's nowhere near enough to refute my statement.
“ Jesse: Yes, it is because God never drops the ball. Again, 'It is impossible for God to fail.' ”
Then it shouldn't need tweaking. Unless he's a poor planner.
Write the free will of humans into this equation, and anything can and does happen. Thus remedial 'Tweaking' is a necessary constant. God doesn't permit the lunatics to run the asylum, but he lets them (us) live there anyway - for now.
“ God pulls the 'weeds' from His garden just as anyone else would. Humankind was made in God's Image, so where do *you* think we get our ideas? ”
Really?
Yeah, really!
What weeds has he pulled lately?
What, you didn't like the flood illustration? Fine, the Sacrificial Death of Christ - The Lamb of God; the resurrection of Christ; the daily miracles that occur on Earth amongst believers. I could make a list but you could obtain a good start by simply reading a Bible.
So you're claiming all our ideas only come from god?
Not at all. I'm stating that we were made in God's image, and we keep order in our surroundings just as He does in His. I'll try to keep my metaphors simple henceforth since you appear to be having difficultly with them.
So why are we required?
I'll let God answer this one. "I made them (us) for My Own good pleasure." Not as toys or objects of amusement, God qualifies His statement many times in the Bible. 'For God so LOVED the world that He sent His Only Begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in Him might not be destroyed, but have everlasting life.' John 3:16
Shalom Aleichem - Jesse.
G'morning!
When we speak of *free will* in terms of what humans are and are not allowed by God (for if there were no God then this wouldn't be an issue), we are speaking of the gift of *choice* - do we have choice (free will) or don't we?
If we do, then we have been given the *freedom* to *choose* whether to worship God and follow Christ and are consequently *responsible* for our own choices, behavior, actions, interactions, sins of omission, commission, and so on.
If we do *not* have *free will* then we cannot be held *accountable* for any choices, behavior, actions, interactions, or sins of omission, commission, etc. The human being is reduced to a robotic existence with no freedom of expression, no individuality, and no choice in his or her life as everything is, by default, *predestined.*
There would be no need for *redemption* because a sin is any departure from the Laws of God. (That would render Christ's Sacrificial death unnecessary and meaningless.) If humans have no *choice* as to whether they will follow (obey) the Laws of God then they cannot incur an adverse *judgment.*
If humans have free will then they are individuals with the freedom to choose but must also accept the consequences for their choices.
If humans do not have free will they are robots and cannot be held accountable for anything.
There are entire books in the Bible, Chronicles for example, where we read, 'And this one did evil in the sight of The LORD.' This sentence is repeated scores of times in application to scores of separate and notable individuals.
If humans do *not* have free will then no 'Evil' could have been done (then or now) in the sight of The LORD.
Humankind has free will. History bears this out.
If we'd rather not apply the discussion of free will to a deity then lets keep it within a human family.
I'm the mother of eight children and the grandmother of three. When I tell my grandson not to eat a cookie (or whatever), and my grandson *chooses* to ignore me and eat the cookie anyway, then my grandson has exercised his will over mine. He has proven that he has free will. (In my house, that act of disobedience wouldn't herald a bright future for the child, but that's a whole other thread.
)If you make a choice, any choice, which all of us do dozens of times a day, then you too have free will. How any thinking person can reasonably refute this line of reasoning is beyond me, but then, the act of *choosing* to refute it simply proves my point, doesn't it?
Next... Hello Oli.
“ Originally Posted by JesseLeigh
This is an immutable truth and observable, historical fact. ”
Um, no.
It certainly isn't an historical fact.
Please cite your source for this statement.
When I tell you that something will happen, and it does, then that happening becomes a historical fact. We have hundreds of examples of where God (YHWH) said something would happen, and it did, making each instance an observable, historical fact. If you wish to prove otherwise, you're going to have to do better than "Um, no." Sorry, but that's nowhere near enough to refute my statement.
“ Jesse: Yes, it is because God never drops the ball. Again, 'It is impossible for God to fail.' ”
Then it shouldn't need tweaking. Unless he's a poor planner.
Write the free will of humans into this equation, and anything can and does happen. Thus remedial 'Tweaking' is a necessary constant. God doesn't permit the lunatics to run the asylum, but he lets them (us) live there anyway - for now.
“ God pulls the 'weeds' from His garden just as anyone else would. Humankind was made in God's Image, so where do *you* think we get our ideas? ”
Really?
Yeah, really!
What weeds has he pulled lately?
What, you didn't like the flood illustration? Fine, the Sacrificial Death of Christ - The Lamb of God; the resurrection of Christ; the daily miracles that occur on Earth amongst believers. I could make a list but you could obtain a good start by simply reading a Bible.
So you're claiming all our ideas only come from god?
Not at all. I'm stating that we were made in God's image, and we keep order in our surroundings just as He does in His. I'll try to keep my metaphors simple henceforth since you appear to be having difficultly with them.
So why are we required?
I'll let God answer this one. "I made them (us) for My Own good pleasure." Not as toys or objects of amusement, God qualifies His statement many times in the Bible. 'For God so LOVED the world that He sent His Only Begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in Him might not be destroyed, but have everlasting life.' John 3:16
Shalom Aleichem - Jesse.
Um, you're the one that made the original statement (unsourced) I merely contradicted it.
I read a lot of history books, not one of them mentions god doing anything.
The event becomes fact certainly.
Predicated upon the unproven belief that
A) god exists
B) he actually said it
And carefully ignoring the ones that didn't happen, and other errors.
Remedial tweaking, as stated a couple of times above (whether due to our free will or not), therefore shows that god's infallibility does not exist.
Flood is a myth, etc.
I've read it.
Daily miracles that occur among believers?
You mean things that would taken for granted among less, um, credulously-predisposed observers?
That's the problem with metaphors - they're so vague.
Interpretable to order.
Ah, we're objects of someone else's pleasure.
Okay.
Wars, famine, plague...
God gave us free will for his own entertainment. With it, he can laugh at our silly human foibles. Without it, we'd just do whatever he wanted us to do. I think he just gets tired of all the bowing and scraping, and created man and free will for the sake of something different.
Do you think he was he bored - at wits end, etc. for the many millions of years it took humans to evolve?
OR
Are you one of those who believes humans did NOT very slowly evolve and God made everything essentially as it is today only about 6000 years ago, including the fossils in rocks, old fake dinosaur bones, etc. and the star light that only seems to have been traveling towards Earth for 14 billion years.
In this second case, what did God do during the eons that preceded the creation of the universe?
Oh - I bet I know answer to that:
God went stark raving mad with the prolonged boredom and that is why he, in his crazy state, made the universe.
I'm all for big bang/evolution/string theory. I'm not sure that humans are the only sentient race he worked on in the entire universe. I think we may, in ten thousand years or so, run into a couple of other civilizations with their own understandings of God. I think God is looking forward to that show of awkwardness, this is all just the prologue and build-up. "I have to take a leak on this rock, Joe" "Gronk!(Why are you lubricating my surface with your bodily fluid, not-rock being?)" "Did this rock say,'Gronk'?"
/small beam of light bursts from rock, incinerating leak-taking portion of expeditionary member/ "Oh God!" "Gronk!(What do you mean by Oh God? Do we share belief in a deity? Oh Joy!)" "Bet that hurt, huh?" says Joe.
/small beam of light bursts from rock, incinerating leak-taking portion of expeditionary member/ "Oh God!" "Gronk!(What do you mean by Oh God? Do we share belief in a deity? Oh Joy!)" "Bet that hurt, huh?" says Joe.
Yes, Mr. Hamtastic. Thank you. - I understand it all now. God's plan got so screwed up on that other planet where rocks evolved as the highest life form that he has been too busy trying to straighten the mess out there to be concerned or even notice Earth.
It is quite a problem for God -trying to give free will to a rock - how can he know the "free will vacination" even "took"? - Rocks do not do much to exhibt their free will. How can he tell what a rock's laser flash means?
It is quite a problem for God -trying to give free will to a rock - how can he know the "free will vacination" even "took"? - Rocks do not do much to exhibt their free will. How can he tell what a rock's laser flash means?
You think that's something, imagine how God felt the first time he sparked the big bang and all the laws and various particles settled down over a few billion years into an immense pair of lovely blue/white knitted socks? MAN The egg was on His face THAT day, let me tell ya!
Well at least the other Gods had a good laugh at our God's expense.
Also our God is still just a kid - learning how it is done - look at this universe -it is a mess compared to a well order one - it even seems to be flying apart now!
Give him abreak, he's doing his best... he was going to make it go crunch, but decided he didn't like crunchy cereal. He's working on the whole atoms radiating to nothingness, and he's got a few hundred trillion years. He's done pretty good for a little fella. He's only infinity years old right now, he's got a whole 'nother infinity to go.
I am, I am! At least he got sex right - Three others in his generation of gods are still hung up on budding.
And you claim he got it right!?
If he'd left it at budding the cost in chocolates alone would be fantastically reduced.