Enmos-and scripture had to be written with a concept of God, directly or indirectly.
Adstar-well said
Adstar-well said
Why can't the understanding of the christian God evolve over time?
- Thread starter Mr. Hamtastic
- Start date
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Those were original thoughts orally transmitted until someone wrote them down.
You are not having any original thoughts, you're shaping that original thought to fit your own agenda.
so you are saying that concept=knowledge=understanding=original thought? Now I really don't understand.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
You can make up a concept ja ?
yes. a concept can be made up
shouldn't it be knowledge of concept->
various understanding
other knowledge ->
or OT+C=KOC, KOC+OK=U? Thus if the Concept is a constant, other Knowledge is a variable, Constant+Varible=Variable, Variable+Variable=2Variable, christianity based on the assumption of a constant would be initial, with infinitely variable results. further other knowledge refining/evolving the value to infinity?
various understanding
other knowledge ->
or OT+C=KOC, KOC+OK=U? Thus if the Concept is a constant, other Knowledge is a variable, Constant+Varible=Variable, Variable+Variable=2Variable, christianity based on the assumption of a constant would be initial, with infinitely variable results. further other knowledge refining/evolving the value to infinity?
It's the "chrome and polish" part that is entirely the problem. When half the people in America believe Noah's flood actually occurred, where do you draw the line in what is to be believed, when even theologists will tell you those events never really occurred, they were just stories.
So, if you boil it down to ethics and morals (treat others as you would be treated), you lose again, because ethics and morals certainly do not come from the bible, as many passages demonstrate Noah and his god to be murderous despots, for example, certainly not role models for ethical and moral behavior.
No, because revisiting a concept is reserved strictly for atheists.
q-let's take the bit of chrome of Noah's flood. I am not suggesting that it should be denied to people a belief in it, no more than I am suggesting we outlaw Santa Claus. I am, however suggesting that christians should not suggest that such beliefs are necessary. It never really boils down to just ethics and morals, because at a certain level we are compelled by threat of force to do God's will(hell/judgement). Thus we return to the core belief in God and belief in Jesus Christ and the admonition to treat others as we would be treated.
S.A.M.-so it would appear, but at least here we are able to have a forum in which to discuss it rationally.
S.A.M.-so it would appear, but at least here we are able to have a forum in which to discuss it rationally.
And being "compelled by threat of force (hell/judgment)" somehow equates to "treat others as we would be treated?"
Wouldn't we then compel others by threat of force as we are compelled?
Sorry, but I'm really trying to see the connection here.
q-I'll try to explain as best I can.
We are compelled by threat of force to believe. Inside of belief we are further orderered to treat others as we are to be treated. Our relationship with God is not the one we have with man. God to us is more of King to subject.
We are compelled by threat of force to believe. Inside of belief we are further orderered to treat others as we are to be treated. Our relationship with God is not the one we have with man. God to us is more of King to subject.
I understand that. It should come as no surprise to you that even a small amount of reasoning would lead one to the same conclusion, that we should treat others as we would like to be treated.
Please remember, when Jesus allegedly uttered those words, he was talking specifically about Jews. In other words, it only applies to Jews. Non-believers are not included.
It is the "forcing" to do this and to do that which is the real problem, as it becomes guidance for living.
Kings are criticized and scrutinized and are removed from their thrones when they demonstrate they are capable of and commit atrocities.
What king do you know of who demands worship under pain of eternal damnation, and says, "Do what I say, not what I do."
Kings are criticized and scrutinized and are removed from their thrones when they demonstrate they are capable of and commit atrocities
I would suggest that this is not the case. From the earliest civilizations, Kings and Emperors of human nature have committed repeated atrocities without being brought down.
Please remember, when Jesus allegedly uttered those words, he was talking specifically about Jews. In other words, it only applies to Jews. Non-believers are not included.
When he was resurrected he said that salvation was to be taught to the gentiles-non-believers.
I would suggest that this is not the case. From the earliest civilizations, Kings and Emperors of human nature have committed repeated atrocities without being brought down.
Please remember, when Jesus allegedly uttered those words, he was talking specifically about Jews. In other words, it only applies to Jews. Non-believers are not included.
When he was resurrected he said that salvation was to be taught to the gentiles-non-believers.
And we , of course, have evidence of the resurrection ! It's in the NT, so it must be so.
Regardless, that is another debate, the point is that Kings and Emperors are real people, hence they can't be compared to gods, as gods cannot be questioned or criticized.
And to whom did he speak those words?
I think there's a lot of misconceptions in here. Perhaps (I don't know) in Christianity and Islam you need to have faith in some concept to go to some sort of heaven. Then the opposite would be hell. Well; I think all those ideas were added later to the religion.
Originally (Judaism); a good act is considered to have a greater act than a smaller act, as it will effect the world more drastically. There's no such thing as hell, there's gehenna, which basically means nothing. When you die if you're not going to shmayin (kind of heaven) then you just become nothing. You don't exist in any way positive or negative. You just exist.
Also, Christians and Muslims are not obligated to many laws.
1. No idolatry. Perhaps if you believe all of the world is really one, and there are no other 'Gods' in front of it you are not going idolatry. Like a pantheism. As long as you believe the entire world is really just one in itself.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder.
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit adultery.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6. Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
7. Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to enforce the preceding six laws fairly.
These are the laws to where you are neither pro-active or impeding. They're actually very tough.
Also concepts learned in the secular arts can help explain concepts from religious scholars. Maimonides was discussing relativity in the 1500's, but it wasn't quantified until later. Kabala was discussing sefirot the matzales and dimensions nearly 1600 years ago, but how to quantify it was unavailable. I believe the Jewish tradition thrives on being at the cutting edge of 'secular arts' in order to gain understanding of what books presently held say.
Originally (Judaism); a good act is considered to have a greater act than a smaller act, as it will effect the world more drastically. There's no such thing as hell, there's gehenna, which basically means nothing. When you die if you're not going to shmayin (kind of heaven) then you just become nothing. You don't exist in any way positive or negative. You just exist.
Also, Christians and Muslims are not obligated to many laws.
1. No idolatry. Perhaps if you believe all of the world is really one, and there are no other 'Gods' in front of it you are not going idolatry. Like a pantheism. As long as you believe the entire world is really just one in itself.
2. Prohibition of Murder: You shall not murder.
3. Prohibition of Theft: You shall not steal.
4. Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: You shall not commit adultery.
5. Prohibition of Blasphemy: You shall not blaspheme God's name.
6. Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: Do not eat flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
7. Requirement to have just Laws: You shall set up an effective judiciary to enforce the preceding six laws fairly.
These are the laws to where you are neither pro-active or impeding. They're actually very tough.
Also concepts learned in the secular arts can help explain concepts from religious scholars. Maimonides was discussing relativity in the 1500's, but it wasn't quantified until later. Kabala was discussing sefirot the matzales and dimensions nearly 1600 years ago, but how to quantify it was unavailable. I believe the Jewish tradition thrives on being at the cutting edge of 'secular arts' in order to gain understanding of what books presently held say.
Q-I agree- Kings in comparison to God is a poor comparison. Kings do not know every secret thought of their people. Kings can't annhilate creation at a whim. If a human King had ever had such power, I suspect we would not be having this discussion.
Acts 1v8 (to the apostles)But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.
CheskiChips-You are correct in the fact faith is required. First mention of Hell-Psalms 9:17-The wicked shall be turned into Hell, and all the nations that forget God
First mention of Heaven-Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth
psalms is thought to have been written around King David's time. Genesis is thought to be oral tradition handed down from generation to generation to the time of Moses and the jewish exodus from Egypt.
I agree with the laws.
Now let me presume something that isn't new. Genesis 1:1=Big Bang
Acts 1v8 (to the apostles)But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.
CheskiChips-You are correct in the fact faith is required. First mention of Hell-Psalms 9:17-The wicked shall be turned into Hell, and all the nations that forget God
First mention of Heaven-Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth
psalms is thought to have been written around King David's time. Genesis is thought to be oral tradition handed down from generation to generation to the time of Moses and the jewish exodus from Egypt.
I agree with the laws.
Now let me presume something that isn't new. Genesis 1:1=Big Bang
Now let me presume something that isn't new. Genesis 1:1=Big Bang
I am not trying to be argumentative, I just thought it would be interesting to mention...
Big bang is actually not Genesis 1:1, big bang happened AFTER Adam. Evidence of this is:
Gemmatria of Garden of Eden = 233
Gemmatria of Tree of Knowledge = 144
233/144 approx. theta.
Which infers that the big bang that influenced our world came after Adam, meaning that there was a previous world. The laws of this previous world are generally unknown.