Why can't ghosts exist?

So you're saying there was an actual camera shot of someone pulling a cord of a lamp. I think you're lying. But that's ok because it's obviously something you're very good at. See posts about cloud-generated lightning., fields not being made of energy, etc and etc.


RE: the picture. This pic is world-famous. Millions of people can see the figure. I don't know what to say. It's right there in front of you and is even magnified. Maybe you have an eye problem. Do you need reading glasses?


RE: your much admired Joe Nickel, I know the guy well. He's always on shows taking the skeptical pov. Doesn't matter what the topic. He's always the one arguing against it. That tells me he's disingenious.
He's an ideological skeptic associated with a skeptical society that has become a hero with a certain following and wants us to take his inability to find paranormal phenomena as evidence that it doesn't exist. That would be like someone who claims that because they personally can't catch a fish there must be no fish in the stream. Hey...but then he's gotta make a paycheck doin something. ;)
 
So you're saying there was an actual camera shot of someone pulling a cord of a lamp. I think you're lying.

Well get the episode and see for yourself!

Don't trust me. Investigate!

But that's ok because it's obviously something you're very good at.

Oh, I see. You've moved onto personal attacks now. Well done. How mature of you. When you have nothing to offer, you resort to schoolboy tactics.

See posts about cloud-generated lightning., fields not being made of energy, etc and etc.

Don't trust me. Investigate for yourself! Come on. Time to grow a brain.

http://www.environlab.com/emc-emi.htm
http://www.windtech-international.c...htning-test-laboratory-for-full-scale-testing
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/f-ene/hvhp/english/f_hvtst.htm
http://www.highvoltage.ecs.soton.ac.uk/commercialTesting/facilitiesAndTestingCapabilities.php
http://www.kema.com/services/testing/hmv-components/labs/HVL.aspx
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/aug01/test facility.htm

It's as if you don't know how to use a search engine.

RE: the picture. This pic is world-famous. Millions of people can see the figure. I don't know what to say. It's right there in front of you and is even magnified. Maybe you have an eye problem. Do you need reading glasses?

Yes, I do use reading glasses. All I have asked of you is that you direct me to where the figure is in your poor-quality image. You seem quite incapable of doing that. Is it because there is no figure?

RE: your much admired Joe Nickel, I know the guy well. He's always on shows taking the skeptical pov. Doesn't matter what the topic. He's always the one arguing against it. That tells me he's disingenious.

It tells me he's the only smart one in the room. I bet he gets less than a minute in an hour-long show of Ghost Hunters.

He's an ideological skeptic associated with a skeptical society that has become a hero with a certain following and wants us to take his inability to find paranormal phenomena as evidence that it doesn't exist. That would be like someone who claims that because they personally can't catch a fish there must be no fish in the stream. Hey...but then he's gotta make a paycheck doin something. ;)

Instead of attacking the man, why don't you start digging up some convincing evidence.

I mean, I asked you for the BEST, most convincing photo you can find, and you give me a blurry, old, badly digitised photo in which I can't even see a ghost. Hell, you're not even sure where the ghost in that photo is.
 
magical realist just wants to believe in ghosts.

that said, there are unusual things that have occurred which are yet to be explained. again, they don't all have to do with so-called 'ghosts' but some are.
 
Uhhh...okaaaay...so hallucinating probably occurs more often than we think..(!!!?) But probably the worst kind of hallucination there is is when something is sitting right before your eyes and you can't even see it. In this case not eye-witnessing something might be even MORE unreliable as eye-witnessing it. ;)
No, it occurs more often than you think. This is because you have not thought about it. Not seeing something that is there is another wholly recognised form of cognitive difficulties. A substantial number of 'ghost sightings' can be easily explained by one or other form of cognitive difficulty. You are using many of these sightings to defend the reality of ghosts. I have demonstrated that such an approach has no value. End of story.
 
Ghost sightings are a very real phenomena, but its unlikely that they are the spirits of dead people.

more likely they are a result of the visual hallucinations and other physiological and psychological responses to infrasound

Our story begins at a medical manufacturing facility in the midlands of Great Britain. Vic Tandy, an engineer from Coventry University, was doing research in a laboratory at the company. Tandy is an expert in computer-assisted learning (and coincidentally, if I'm not mistaken, I think the "Vic Tandy" might have been an old TRS-80 model they used to sell at Radio Shack). Workers at the lab told Tandy that the building was haunted, but being a reasoning man of science, he didn't believe them. At least, not at first.


Late one night, when Tandy was burning the midnight oil all alone at the laboratory, he had a face-to-face encounter with the unexplained. As he sat at his desk working in the silent, desolate building, a gnawing unease began to overtake him. Although he couldn't put his finger on anything out of the ordinary, something was not right.


"I was sweating but cold and the feeling of depression was noticeable -- but there was also something else. It was as though something was in the room with me," Tandy said. "Then I became aware that I was being watched, and a figure slowly emerged to my left. It was indistinct and on the periphery of my vision, but it moved just as I would expect a person to. It was gray, and made no sound. The hair was standing up on the back of my neck -- I was terrified."


Tandy steeled himself and turned to face the ghostly shape dead-on, but he said it immediately faded and completely disappeared. Concerned that his mind must be playing tricks on him, Tandy packed up and went home. But in the great tradition of haunted house encounters, he didn't flee from the ghost-ridden building and swear never to return -- no sir, he came right back for more. And he got it.


The morning after his weird sighting, Tandy took a break at the lab to spend some time on a hobby of his, namely the sport of fencing. He clamped a fencing foil in a vise so that he could make some adjustments on it, perhaps subconsciously thinking he might need the sword to fight off any unruly ghosts. Tandy briefly left the room, and then returned to see a phenomenal sight. The tip of the foil was vibrating intensely and continuously, for no apparent reason.


The average person might have freaked out and concluded that the poltergeists were trying to go on a foil-whacking spree upside somebody's head. But not Vic Tandy, professional engineer. His first thought was that there might be low frequency sound waves coming from somewhere in the laboratory -- subsonic sounds that can be seen (in the form of surrounding vibrations) but not heard.


One of the perks of being a scientist is that you can usually get ahold of big-time scientific equipment any time you have a crazy hunch about something, and so Tandy was able to test out the laboratory's sound wave properties. His hypothesis was correct: there was a "standing wave" acoustically stuck inside walls of the lab, an infrasound wave vibrating at about 19 cycles per second. The sound waves, which just happened to hit top intensity at a spot right beside Tandy's desk, were being generated by a recently installed extraction fan.


"When the fan's mounting was altered, the ghost left with the standing wave," Tandy said. And that, surely, was the most hum-drum exorcism ever performed in history. But there's a deeper significance to Tandy's discovery than knowing when to tighten some loose bolts. Tandy believes that the low frequency sound also caused his late-night spectral visitation: the cold chills, the sense of paranoia and distress, the hallucinatory figure glimpsed creeping in the shadows. In short, infrasound waves could could be a multi-purpose explanation for most of the commonly reported occurrences in suspected hauntings.


Research has previously proven that exposure to low frequency sound can cause a variety of physiological effects, many of them adverse ones, such as shivering, anxiety and breathlessness. These responses can lead a person to think that some unseen danger is imminent, or feel like he is being watched. Infrasound might even cause hallucinations. Tests at NASA have shown that the human eyeball has a resonant frequency of 18 cycles a second, and will vibrate in sympathy with infrasound waves that have a similar frequency. Under these conditions, there would be a "smearing of vision" that is capable of making someone see evanescent hallucinations in the periphery of their visual field. This effect is reminiscent of the theories of neurologist Michael Persinger, who has suggested that electromagnetic waves can interfere with brain activity and lead people to think they see ghosts or aliens.


To back up his personal observations, Tandy has investigated other sites of reported hauntings, and he claims to have found two more in which infrasound may account for the "presence" of ghosts. One was a building where a wind tunnel in the basement was running during the sighting. Of course, the classical haunted house is an old abandoned mansion without so much as electrical wiring, let alone heavy industrial equipment. But infrasound can still be generated without power -- a standing wave could be caused by wind blowing past a cracked window in a long, narrow corridor, which sounds like a suitably creepy setting. This type of low-frequency sound generation is similar in principle to the deep tooting sound a glass bottle makes when you blow across the top of it.


So it just might be that subsonic sound waves have put the spook in a lot of traditionally spooky places. And what's more, in some cases it may have even been put there on purpose. Archaeologists have discovered that a number of Neolithic tombs in England and Ireland were seemingly constructed so as to make sounds bounce off walls with the intentional effect of being, well, scary. The tombs uniformly create this acoustic environment through the familiar recipe of a long, narrow entryway with an opening to the outside at one end. The ancient architects of these tombs may not have understood infrasound frequencies and Helmholtz resonance, but spookiness was a desirable feature for a tomb, for the purpose of instilling reverence for the dead and discouraging grave-robbers. Through trial and error, they might have struck upon the most sonically foreboding design possible, and stuck with it.


All in all, the Tandy theory of infrasound hauntings is a nifty notion that's tailor-made for Scully to fling at Mulder's next phantom menace. But never fear: the true-believing ghost-hunters of the world will remain undaunted by science's latest whiz in their cornflakes. At the very least, the faithful will knowingly explain that real ghosts produce subsonic sounds, thereby hijacking all the salient facts over to their side of the argument. Or they could just pretend that this whole discovery resonates at an ultra low frequency, and never hear a word of it.

http://istina.rin.ru/eng/ufo/text/270.html

References:



Tandy V. & Lawrence, T,. (1998). The ghost in the machine. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, 62, 360-364

http://www.psy.herts.ac.uk/ghost/ghost-in-machine.pdf


Tandy, V. (2000), "Something in the Cellar", Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, Vol. 64.3, No 860

http://www.psy.herts.ac.uk/ghost/Something-in-the-Cellar.pdf
 
Since the claim that ghosts or spirits exist is extraordinary, it behooves the folks who claim they exist to provide the requisite extraordinary proof, not the other way around.

This has not yet been done here, and it will not be provided either IMHO.
 
that said, there are unusual things that have occurred which are yet to be explained. again, they don't all have to do with so-called 'ghosts' but some are.
Some are?
How do you know?
What evidence is there that they are "ghosts"?
How do you define "ghost"?
 
prove to me that a soul doesn't exist or the sense of self doesn't exist. oh, that's right, you can't!

self awareness ≠ soul.

Also, I don't have to disprove the existence of souls. Why do woowoos always play that card?

Why don't you actually explain what you think a soul is, so we can test your hypothesis?
 
Well get the episode and see for yourself!

Don't trust me. Investigate!



Oh, I see. You've moved onto personal attacks now. Well done. How mature of you. When you have nothing to offer, you resort to schoolboy tactics.



Don't trust me. Investigate for yourself! Come on. Time to grow a brain.

http://www.environlab.com/emc-emi.htm
http://www.windtech-international.c...htning-test-laboratory-for-full-scale-testing
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/f-ene/hvhp/english/f_hvtst.htm
http://www.highvoltage.ecs.soton.ac.uk/commercialTesting/facilitiesAndTestingCapabilities.php
http://www.kema.com/services/testing/hmv-components/labs/HVL.aspx
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/aug01/test facility.htm

It's as if you don't know how to use a search engine.



Yes, I do use reading glasses. All I have asked of you is that you direct me to where the figure is in your poor-quality image. You seem quite incapable of doing that. Is it because there is no figure?



It tells me he's the only smart one in the room. I bet he gets less than a minute in an hour-long show of Ghost Hunters.



Instead of attacking the man, why don't you start digging up some convincing evidence.

I mean, I asked you for the BEST, most convincing photo you can find, and you give me a blurry, old, badly digitised photo in which I can't even see a ghost. Hell, you're not even sure where the ghost in that photo is.

I DO remember the episode. That's why I DON'T remember your alleged incident of someone pulling a lamp. I DO remember them taking the time to debunk the mirror, which they often do with mirrors as they are liable to prompt people to "matrix" faces and forms out the light distortions. I also remember them catching on camera a figure that looks thru a window which they immediately debunked was a real person on the outside. I wondered why since I was all ready to take it as paranormal. But obviously they knew something I didn't and I trust their judgment.

RE: the posted links, I haven't gone thru all of them, but you are confirming what I already said: NO experiments replicating CLOUD-GENERATED lightning. How many times do I have to say it? Ofcourse there are machines that create arcs. But these are NOT cloud-generated.
 
Now compare yourself. You axiomatically say "ghosts exist".

No..I do not axiomatically say that. I say it based on the evidence that I've seen and examined. When I see photos and footage of things that cannot be explained away as hoaxes or tricks of the light, I take it as evidence of paranormal. That's evidence-based reasoning. When you see the same things you immediately dismiss them as faked anyway because that would contradict your assumptions that a) ghosts can't exist.. and therefore b) that there can be no evidence for ghosts. THAT is axiomatically assuming your own conclusion. See the difference?
 
Ghost sightings are a very real phenomena, but its unlikely that they are the spirits of dead people.

more likely they are a result of the visual hallucinations and other physiological and psychological responses to infrasound

People are physiologically hallucinating the exact same voices, knocks, footsteps, lights and figures that they are also capturing on film and audio recordings? That seems unlikely..
 
People are physiologically hallucinating the exact same voices, knocks, footsteps, lights and figures that they are also capturing on film and audio recordings? That seems unlikely..

you would need to qualify that statement by providing convincing audio / video evidence - I've yet to see any
 
No..I do not axiomatically say that. I say it based on the evidence that I've seen and examined. When I see photos and footage of things that cannot be explained away as hoaxes or tricks of the light, I take it as evidence of paranormal. That's evidence-based reasoning. When you see the same things you immediately dismiss them as faked anyway because that would contradict your assumptions that a) ghosts can't exist.. and therefore b) that there can be no evidence for ghosts. THAT is axiomatically assuming your own conclusion. See the difference?
And when faced with something that can't be explained (how intensive was the investigation?) stating "That is a ghost" as opposed to "This needs further investigation" does actually happen to be axiomatically assuming your own conclusion.
Do you understand that?
I doubt it.
 
People are physiologically hallucinating the exact same voices, knocks, footsteps, lights and figures that they are also capturing on film and audio recordings? That seems unlikely..

It seems unlikely only to you and others like you who so desperately want for such things to be real.

The mentality I see expressed in this thread is identical to that of those who believe in alien visitations, bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster, that the government is watching them through their TV, etc. The problem is that there's no real evidence of any of that despite the claims of the "true believers."

Basically, it could be said that people can be divided into three groups - those who want solid evidence of such claims, those who don't really care one way or the other, and those who are willing to believe practically anything that comes along.

And it's the last group that I find so amusing. :D Not only do they readily believe that ghosts and the other things I listed above exist, they are pretty much the same group that keeps fortune-tellers, palm readers, horoscope makers and the like in business. ;) But most of them are actually just ordinary people who live such dull lives that they'll take anything that comes along to add some excitement. They can't stand being bored and are almost desperate for excitement and entertainment - and resort to pure foolishness in order to get it.

It has been said that ignorance can be corrected (through education) but that foolishness and stupidly are forever. And there's solid proof of that in this very thread. :D
 
It seems unlikely only to you and others like you who so desperately want for such things to be real.

The mentality I see expressed in this thread is identical to that of those who believe in alien visitations, bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster, that the government is watching them through their TV, etc. The problem is that there's no real evidence of any of that despite the claims of the "true believers."

Basically, it could be said that people can be divided into three groups - those who want solid evidence of such claims, those who don't really care one way or the other, and those who are willing to believe practically anything that comes along.

And it's the last group that I find so amusing. :D Not only do they readily believe that ghosts and the other things I listed above exist, they are pretty much the same group that keeps fortune-tellers, palm readers, horoscope makers and the like in business. ;) But most of them are actually just ordinary people who live such dull lives that they'll take anything that comes along to add some excitement. They can't stand being bored and are almost desperate for excitement and entertainment - and resort to pure foolishness in order to get it.

It has been said that ignorance can be corrected (through education) but that foolishness and stupidly are forever. And there's solid proof of that in this very thread. :D

Yet another vicious ad hominem this time aimed at everyone who even just recognizes the existence of paranormal phenomenon. All the typical aspersions and cliche stereotypes are trotted out: we're ignorant, we're gullible, we're foolish, and we're astrology buffs? lol! Not hardly. Anyway, if you're lurking here I ask you to simply examine the reports and the evidence yourself. Be open-minded and don't resort to demonizing all the good folk who happen to have such experiences. They're just human beings with the courage to come forward and talk about something they will be ridiculed for. I imagine that many people keep their paranormal experiences to themselves because of such overemotional hostility towards the merest possibility of the paranormal. And just going by some of the posts in this thread can you blame them?
 
MR:

Yes. They use a rocket w/wire.:)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/102-vari-09.html


02-vari-triggered.jpg
 
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